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Infynis

(OOC) What are your thoughts on the vessel system?

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Needs more Vespene Gas...

 

But in all seriousness, I suppose I am caught in the middle here. On the one hand, I find that given the soul system, a slower pace wouldn't be very palatable, on the other, I find that at the pace it is currently going, developing certain RP storylines would be either rushed or nigh impossible. 

 

Consider the delectable buildup of a romance for a moment. Like a fine wine, or cheese, oh how I love cheese, the romance needs time to reach perfection, but at the same time, some of us just want a one night snack with some grapes and milk. With things accelerated to the speed they are, your snack could take a quarter of a year and your properly aged delicacy won't have time to grow until your character is an aged delicacy themselves...

 

Pardon me, I do appear to be ever so hungry right now. Tah tah for now!

 

tumblr_m8aubwtuLg1rcclhqo1_500.gif

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You could approach the vessel system in a few different ways. You could RP as an "awakened" crow who retains his original identity, which then overrides the identity of the vessel he is currently occupying. He could, perhaps, recall the memories of the hero he has possessed to aid him in his task. You could also play your character as a composite of the various heroes he has inhabited, where no one identity has complete control. Finally, you could play as a crow who remembers nothing of their past lives, perhaps rising from death believing that their god has struck a fresh bargain with them. If we think of these options on a scale, then you could add a dynamic element to your character(s) by allowing them to explore all three modes. You could, perhaps, RP your crow as a sort of meta-consciousness which remembers everything, where you'd RP your vessel as having only tattered pieces of the truth.

 

Yea, I really like the multiple options the system opens up as well. You can RP it any way you like. I wrote this short story, just one possible take on it:

 

 http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/11651-the-library-at-the-end-of-time-short-story-inspired-by-crows-and-vessels-system/

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Heritage, origin, stigmas, species, these things play heavily into identity, a serious component of role playing.

 

You could role play anything, even a leaf on a tree, but the qualities of role playing are tied to features which create identity. This vessel system may provide a unique role playing experience as a body snatching ghost, but it takes away with one hand as it dispenses with the other, all the other role playing experiences possible are eliminated, as a Fae, or a Centaur, or a proud Guineacian. Your physical standing is how others identify you, it's how we identify ppl, playing as a ghost doesn't convey the kind of identities natural to us as human beings.

 

With no story driven narrative, and displaced character identity, i think it's fair to strike the RPG sub genre from the title.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Sure, I agree species and racial tension can be a big and important part of RP and the crow/vessel system feels like it takes the focus away from that.

 

But if that's really what you'd like to focus on, a proud guineacian or a haughty centaur for example, you could still choose to only play in certain vessels. You were a proud guineacian as a mortal and remain loyal to the race and unwilling to take any other vessel as an immortal crow. Just an example. 

 

 

 Your physical standing is how others identify you, it's how we identify ppl, playing as a ghost doesn't convey the kind of identities natural to us as human beings.

 

 

In part, yes, I agree. But other than your physical standing and species/race, there's still a whole plethora of emotions, goals, personality, dreams, fears, beliefs and character traits that define the human experience and can still be used as a foundation  for RP as a Crow. It's not just physical standing, there's so much more than that. 

 

As for story driven narrative, do you mean storyline quests? I personally also have doubts Crowfall will lend itself to the RPG part of the genre, but not for lack of story quests. I just think the vast majority of MMO's are very weak when it comes to providing meaningful opportunities for RP. It's usually just socializing in bars, having trade markets or whatnot. The world remains static and it feels meaningless (to me at least). If the players had the tools to actually shape the story of the world and cause meaningful change on it, that's a much better set up for meaningful RP IMO. Like a few rare games allow players to assume positions of leadership in nations and make big life changing decisions. In Crowfall for example since the concept revolves around the war between gods, you could for example come up with a system in which if enough guilds and players achieve victories for a god, he grows stronger and comes closer to reaching the Dragon Throne, while the opposite is true, and a god facing many defeats in God's reach grows weaker and that would have consequences in the lore and gameplay. Just an example. 

 

The way it is there can still be plenty of tension and politics between guilds, it might just be completely dettached from the lore for all we know (save for a few buffs depending on which god/faction you were following in the last campaign you won). 

 

 

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Even if you lock yourself into an archetype or vessel, your not only accepting a competitive disadvantage, but you're relationship with other characters isn't natural. Is that a proud Guineacian brother? Or an elven deceiver?, is that a noble Centaur over yonder?, or some silly human trying to figure out how to walk with 4 hooves rather than 2 feet.

 

Is that a tempting Druid?, or a pervy dwarf exploring female anatomy on himself?

 

You can roleplayer static identities within an isolated community of players who maintain a single vessel, but your going to have to accept that any unknown player, even on an RP world if such a thing exists, may be a transient crow.

 

So how's a Fae to trust her sisters if they could be men in disguise? It will take a lot of narrative to construct a meaningful fantasy for roleplayers to adapt to their unique setting, something I think a story lite world will not provide, something I don't think can compare to the established RP behaviors.

Edited by bahamutkaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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I intend to roleplay this system to it's very core, for we are beings without boundaries, we walk between the lines of god and mortal, a warped mind for a soul tormented or gifted with an unnatural state. Hero tossed into many battles cursed with a fate similar rose to godhood yet recalls not his purpose until he dies each time. 

I for one am greatly excited to roleplay this, even if many do not understand how I will roleplay this into the ground. =D

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I intend to roleplay this system to it's very core, for we are beings without boundaries, we walk between the lines of god and mortal, a warped mind for a soul tormented or gifted with an unnatural state. Hero tossed into many battles cursed with a fate similar rose to godhood yet recalls not his purpose until he dies each time.

 

I for one am greatly excited to roleplay this, even if many do not understand how I will roleplay this into the ground. =D

You, and everyone like you, role playing the same thing, essentially :-/


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Even if you lock yourself into an archetype or vessel, your not only accepting a competitive disadvantage, but you're relationship with other characters isn't natural. Is that a proud Guineacian brother? Or an elven deceiver?, is that a noble Centaur over yonder?, or some silly human trying to figure out how to walk with 4 hooves rather than 2 feet.

 

Is that a tempting Druid?, or a pervy dwarf exploring female anatomy on himself?

 

You can roleplayer static identities within an isolated community of players who maintain a single vessel, but your going to have to accept that any unknown player, even on an RP world if such a thing exists, may be a transient crow.

 

So how's a Fae to trust her sisters if they could be men in disguise? It will take a lot of narrative to construct a meaningful fantasy for roleplayers to adapt to their unique setting, something I think a story lite world will not provide, something I don't think can compare to the established RP behaviors.

 

Agree with this, it's almost impossible to properly RP a character without an identity. You can't make meaningful relationships if your friends/lovers/enemies are in a new body (with or without different personality characteristics) every day. The example of the Fae is particularly on point when you look at the lore that has been presented for the races. Why is it there if it's not relevant to you as a crow who just possesses whatever body they find that day?

 

I suppose a work-around would be to RP as a character before death, eliminating the crow body possession part. A denizen of the campaign world that you're playing, when they die or the world ends so does your character. That way RP like every other part of the game is transient.

 

It's important to note that crafters will be able to create bodies, they don't necessarily have to be possessed corpses if the bodies are constructed by magical means so they could be blank slates for a persistent personality to possess. That or maybe your spirit can't possess, or doesn't feel right when they do, a race they weren't when they were alive.

 

There's work-arounds, but the vessel system taken as lore is really cumbersome for roleplay as a whole.

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I'm not a role player. Hell, I'm not even a Shipwrecked Pirate, thought I've fought a few. I may have even loved one, but I'll never tell.

 

But I can definitely see how the vessel system could fracture immersion. With or without RP that would be true, but probably more for some RP folks.

 

I know my attachment to character will be virtually nonexistent - assuming I understand the vessel system correctly. It's gear, basically.

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I think I have to take back the words of "I understand, you're right" I spoke hastily on another thread. Really, thanks all of you guys who think likewise, that the crows&vessels system brings a whole lot more opportunitys than it takes away.

 

I have been a pen&paper roleplayer for a long time, and I've experienced a lot of strange things. I once knew a player who roleplayed the (consious) cancer in some other players head. So, believe me, playing with more then one personality, with anemia or some other mental issue, is really no big deal.

If you fear beeing an immortal soul that constantly changes bodies, and say "I can't play that!", perhaps you can't play a shapeshifter, too? Cause, theres really no big difference. Oh wait, there is.

As a shapeshifter, you know your own personality, you know who you are in all of your forms.

As an immortal crow, you may not know that. Not every time, not every "life" you may have all of your memorys. Like soulein said,  there are a ton of possibly ways you could play such a character.

I always thought being a roleplayer included being creative, with all the inventing new characters and stuff. But listening to some of you, it's like you are afraid of flying to high. Of roleplaying with to few rules.

Yes, with a body-shifting crow, you have to invent some of the rules yourself. You have to give yourself restraints, but really, deciding that "I will only take centaur bodys, cause in life I was a proud centaur", thats not really different from saying "I'm a living centaur. But because of my beliefe, I will wear no leather on my body, cause I feel for the animals, my distant brothers and sisters, who had to die for those hides".

You give yourself some means of identification, a trademark.

And hell yes, other players have to remember that, and have to be nice enough to play along. But, thats the gist of roleplaying, all together, isn't it? It's not a solo sport. Roleplaying in a community of trolls is impossible. Roleplaying in a community of people who are nice and fair, and take their time to listen to your story....thats the fun about it.

You may even challenge the centaures decision. Involve him in a psychological mind-game of "why?"-questions. As long as you respect his roleplaying genius, when he erupst in a mental shock.recation, because you've just shaken his longtime believes and showed him that the world is so much wider and greater, and that he may want to take the body of an elve now and then, to irritate his enemys.

 

I think the system gives us a whole new way. Humans struggle to answer the why-questions since the dawn of time. Crowfall gives us an elaborate way of including those questions in our roleplaying, with a lore to build upon.

 

Concluding, I just want to appologies if my argument is a bit heated. I don't want to sound aggressive, and if I've done a poor job, I'm sorry. In the end, every one of us will play his or her way, and...yeah, we have to accept it. Or bash his ambitions, becoming a troll in his eyes.

Thats the whole point of beeing human, and consequently, of roleplaying consient creatures - every one of us is an individual with different dreams, prejudices and thoughts.

Edited by Akineko

Let me sing you a song / Of a world that just vanished / Of a story that ended to soon
Let me bring you a cup / Make a toast to the living / And a toast to the legends we share

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QUOTE

 

You don't have to worry about sounding heated. This and many of the others are exactly the kind of posts I was hoping for when I started this thread. It's well thought out, well written, and adds a useful point of view to the discussion. I'm excited to see what stories you and the rest of the RP crows come up with :D

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I have been a pen&paper roleplayer for a long time, and I've experienced a lot of strange things. I once knew a player who roleplayed the (consious) cancer in some other players head. So, believe me, playing with more then one personality, with anemia or some other mental issue, is really no big deal.

If you fear beeing an immortal soul that constantly changes bodies, and say "I can't play that!", perhaps you can't play a shapeshifter, too? Cause, theres really no big difference. Oh wait, there is.

As a shapeshifter, you know your own personality, you know who you are in all of your forms.

As an immortal crow, you may not know that. Not every time, not every "life" you may have all of your memorys. Like soulein said,  there are a ton of possibly ways you could play such a character.

I always thought being a roleplayer included being creative, with all the inventing new characters and stuff. But listening to some of you, it's like you are afraid of flying to high. Of roleplaying with to few rules.

 

-snip-

The big difference is that you don't get to pick. As it is right now, everyone will be a nothing (that maybe had a previous life) that inhabits the body of a dead thing that used to have an identity. Sure, we could all play as though their identity affects the things you do but there's nothing to solidly say that's how it is and at any rate not everyone wants to play a character with a mental defect all of the time.

 

I don't know where you're getting the "few rules" from, because from what I can tell the rules are far too restricting. Identity, racial background and multiple clashing cultures I don't consider to be "rules." They're driving forces in an overall narrative and believe me when I say that RP scenes need those kinds of things. For an example of one where everyone just makes up their own, check out Champions Online. (Don't really, it's awful)

 

Like I've said before, there are work-arounds but it is going to be something that needs to be worked around. It's going to be jarring when two or more peoples' made up lore clash across other peoples' RP and unfortunately it's probably going to push RP into the realms of guild-centered RP unless the community (if it's big enough to be called a community at the moment) rallies together to create a better experience.

 

Not that guild-centered RP isn't good and all, but it's very fragmenting for what I think will probably already be a small RP community. It's also a problem when you're only allowed to join one guild with your account.

 

Ultimately, the vessel system manifesting in lore and RP is just a huge hindrance that I think everyone can agree would be totally removed if characters were played individually with racial cultures and histories to colour their storylines. The immortal champion of one of the gods that may or may not have memories of themselves or the bodies they're in isn't really enough imo.

 

I guess it could be partially solved if there was an expansion of lore on what each god specifically wants their heroes to fight for. Maybe where they get the crows from, some of the potential worlds and THEIR characteristics that a crow could have come from. But again that would all have been coloured greatly by having a greater identity and history too.

Edited by PsionCCC

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...

 

I guess it could be partially solved if there was an expansion of lore on what each god specifically wants their heroes to fight for. Maybe where they get the crows from, some of the potential worlds and THEIR characteristics that a crow could have come from. But again that would all have been coloured greatly by having a greater identity and history too.

 

I do like the idea.  Players, from the RP light person who just wants a bit of story and immersion all the way to the RP hardcore, could really benefit from some sort of shared identity, especially if it is somehow obvious to other players (RPer or not).  If it is completely individualized and obscured (i.e., Crow RP) or trivialized (i.e., Vessel RP), then that creates a void that begs to be filled.  ACE could fill this by further developing our Crow's relationship with patron deities, who really supply the foundation for the lore (and I do like the lore, it just hasn't been implemented mechanically in a way that fosters RP).  Unfortunately, ACE has basically said at this point that deity choice will be transferable and, regardless of what bonuses or features it may provide, therefore will be yet another impermanent thing that players can change for whatever reason they choose.  I think ACE could "fix" this, potentially in very creative ways and would really like to see some shared basis for identity.  

 

EDIT:  Since your skill choices and EK are really the only permanent, defining things in CF--how about the addition of a skill tree that is god based?  Perhaps this tree provides largely cosmetic effects, unlocks cosmetic items or emotes?  Just thinking out loud, but maybe... 

Edited by Regulus

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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I think I'm starting to see the difference between pen&paper roleplaying and ingame/ mmo-roleplaying :D

For P&P'lers, its all in your head. You have to imagine yourself and your companions, and that makes it faily easy to play in unorthodox ways.

Therefore ingame roleplay is mostly centered around the visuals given, am I right? You won't be in attendance when player A builds his charakter design, and he won't take his sweet time to explain and discuss it with you - cause, you can see him standing right before you, and thats that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

 

So, having visual key-features is essential, like race differences, class icon or weapons/ skills you use. If so, I have to agree that RPing Crowfall could be a disaster. And yep, giving the players the possibility to identify themselfes through their chosen gods would be a nice way to create factions, with all the cultural difference things and such. If I remember correctly, I already stated such an idear here. But thanks Regulus for taking it up and extending it :)

 

I do agree that it would be fabulous to have a bit more background story of the world, and some more details of the actual agendas of the gods. It wouldn't save us the, in some of your eyes, pain in the ass to think abaout the mental state of your crow. But it would give all of us a simple way to identify the player in front of us and make a guess regarding how he/she plays their charakter.

And back to the mental state: you don't have to give them an "illness". You don't have to make your head smoke thinking about all the possibilitys you have. You can always just stick with some of the "easier" concepts, with no memory leaks: the loyalist - taking only one typ of bodie ever, won't change his race. the mercenary - taking whatever bodies roll his way, if he can fight with it, he loves it. the realist - taking only the bodytyps he's comfortabe with, choosing 2-3 different ones he knows his way around with.

Thinking abaout it this way, it's like a "dividing force" already.

 

1. Do you remember your past lifes?

  • Yes - go straight to question 3
  • No - go straight to question 3
  • Not always - go to the next question

2. How much do you remember/ how do you remember?

  • I remember on my death bed (the hero-concept)
  • I remember only parts and bits here and there
  • I remember ....

3. How do you wear your bodys?

  • Only one! I repair it again and again...haven't thought abaout the possibility of it breaking altogether....
  • Only one race! I remember beeing/ I like beeing an....[fill in race/archetype here]
  • Only x to x archetypes, cause I already know how to move in them: [fill in races/archetypes here]
  • I don't care. It's all the same as long as it's strong enough to hold a weapon, right?

4. Which god resurected you/ whom do you believe in?

  • I don't believe in them, and I sure as hell hate the guy who did this to me.
  • I don't believe in them, and I'm fighting not for them, but for my freedom.
  • I believe in [fill in the name of the god here]! But I'm not serving out of my free will.
  • I believe in [fill in the name of the god here]! But I have to serve...[fill in the name of the god here].
  • I believe in [fill in the name of the god here], for he is the god who gave me my immortal life and I'm fighting for him!

 

So, what we have here, in my shrouded P&P'ler eyes, is a legitimate rule system. Or, if you will, a legitimate system of dividing forces. Only problem: it's not really visual, is it? I can't see which choices you took, looking at you ingame.

So, the only problem we have, is that the given lore and choices don't actually fit the medium.

  • If we had an established RP-community, we could perhaps aide the ingame experience through forum means, creating a "hello, I'm...." thread, where every one of us has to fill in a similar form as stated above. But that would be, if we think opptimisticly of some hundred or thousand RP'lers, rather chaotic.
  • Or give us the posibility of an accessible charakter sheet, in which one could describe his/her background story, which every one could look into pressing...say...F near the person. If it's blank, you're warned that the person opposite you might not be a roleplayer ;)
  • Or give us little symbols, to be displayed next to our name: a symbol for every god (and if none is displayed, your against a heretic....burn him!), a symbol for having only one favored archetyp, and a symbol for the "I don't cahaare~" fraction. Well, wouldn't that be colourful?

 

Just a few idears. Overall I'm still on the stubborn side of those "not everyones", thinking that it's not a hindrance, but a possibility (little freebee tip: don't ever say "everyone has to agree..." - it's like a war cry for all those pesky little free spirited people out there).

But I can see the advantages of having ways to identify the players around me.

 

Nevertheless I honestly think that the game has still a long way to go overall, and maybe - just think about the outragious idear! - maybe ACE just didn't have the time to make live for us rolplayers more certain.

Maybe they've got there hands full with creating a game, with all the technical stuff I wouldn't ever understand, and are planning to make the lore more detailed and live for us easier, just....not right now. It's possible, isn't it? ;)

Edited by Akineko

Let me sing you a song / Of a world that just vanished / Of a story that ended to soon
Let me bring you a cup / Make a toast to the living / And a toast to the legends we share

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<snip>

  • If we had an established RP-community, we could perhaps aide the ingame experience through forum means, creating a "hello, I'm...." thread, where every one of us has to fill in a similar form as stated above. But that would be, if we think opptimisticly of some hundred or thousand RP'lers, rather chaotic.
  • Or give us the posibility of an accessible charakter sheet, in which one could describe his/her background story, which every one could look into pressing...say...F near the person. If it's blank, you're warned that the person opposite you might not be a roleplayer ;)
  • Or give us little symbols, to be displayed next to our name: a symbol for every god (and if none is displayed, your against a heretic....burn him!), a symbol for having only one favored archetyp, and a symbol for the "I don't cahaare~" fraction. Well, wouldn't that be colourful?

<snip>

There are some forums already acting as "Hello, I'm" and basic character sheets.

 

For example: http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/10694-ooc-roleplay-backer-census/

 

So fear not, the RP community is already starting the fun, and the game isn't even made yet ^_^


Can we have a Bard? If not as an Archetype or Promotion, then maybe a Discipline?


i-3ZQNFxh.jpg

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Well, seeing as we're talking about roleplaying, and some people obviously want a bit more infomation...I think the thread you posted could be only a start. If it should be the base for RP'ing, there probably have to be some more points to answer, don't you think?

It doesn't realy tell you all that much about the charakters behind the names....so, if we want a database for roleplaying uses, there should be more.

 

But as you said, and mentioned in the posted thread, it's just about the basics....so...yeah. something like that :)

 

But again, I guess it would be kinda cumbersome to play, whilst having to look up every second charakter you're meeting.....so if the roleplaying community spans more than 20 players, there has to be something else.


Let me sing you a song / Of a world that just vanished / Of a story that ended to soon
Let me bring you a cup / Make a toast to the living / And a toast to the legends we share

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There are so many ways to do this right with established examples, the old tv show Quantum Leap, the movie "What Dreams May Come." 

 

This really isn't hard at all.

 

No one is saying you can't RP.  We are saying:

 

Heritage, origin, stigmas, species, these things play heavily into identity, a serious component of role playing.

 

You could role play anything, even a leaf on a tree, but the qualities of role playing are tied to features which create identity. This vessel system may provide a unique role playing experience as a body snatching ghost, but it takes away with one hand as it dispenses with the other, all the other role playing experiences possible are eliminated, as a Fae, or a Centaur, or a proud Guineacian. Your physical standing is how others identify you, it's how we identify ppl, playing as a ghost doesn't convey the kind of identities natural to us as human beings.

 

With no story driven narrative, and displaced character identity, i think it's fair to strike the RPG sub genre from the title.


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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