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Infynis

(OOC) What are your thoughts on the vessel system?

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You could role play anything, even a leaf on a tree, but the qualities of role playing are tied to features which create identity. This vessel system may provide a unique role playing experience as a body snatching ghost, but it takes away with one hand as it dispenses with the other, all the other role playing experiences possible are eliminated, as a Fae, or a Centaur, or a proud Guineacian. Your physical standing is how others identify you, it's how we identify ppl, playing as a ghost doesn't convey the kind of identities natural to us as human beings.

 

And theres the point I don't get.

For me as a human beeing, it's equally challenging to roleplay a Centaur or a Guineacian as it would be to roleplay a ghost. I can't identify myself for a 100% with either of those.

But! I do think that all of them have a consciousness similar to us humans. I have to believe that, otherwise I couldn't play either of them at all.

So, if I arrive at the cnclusion that a Centaur, a Fea, a Guineacian, a ghost and a body shifting crow all have a conscious similar to mine, which is shaped by memories, by events witnessed, people met and things done, than I can roleplay them.

Yeah, identity is surely given through our outward appearance, the "race" we're part of and the place we were born. But, as fellow "people of the internet", we of all humans should know that identity is not appearance. I've met alone in the last two months a bunch of people in a community strange and new to me. They read my texts, they spoke to me via TS, but they've never seen me. But I'd guess they'd tell you that I'm real and that they'd be able to identify me from my voice, behaviour or the way I argue in textform.

To them, it's inconsequential if I were able to swap my body as I please, cause they've never seen it anyways.

Perhaps it's me, I'm just to accustomed to knowing people only by voice or text. But I would say that we're not only physically identified. Neither will be the charakters I'd play. They would have their own personality, thats the fun about it. Beeing rash and brazen, beeing humble and shy. Things you yourself won't ever be. And thats how people will identify my charakters.

See the crow there? She swaps her bodys on a daylie basis, I've heard. To arrogant to stay in one, wants to show she's got the money.

See him? He's realy shy, but kinda cute. Doesn't want to bother the crafters, so he's just using those cheap vessels over and over.

Kinda like that. But yeah...if you don't want to listen to the storys I made for my chars...well, what the hell are you doing in the RP section? Isn't this the place for long monologues and addicted listeners? Without a background story you're nothing. And withoud a bunch of people listening to that story, applauding and accepting it, you're a lony wolf howling to the moon.

No offence to the wolfs - I like them.

 

Seriuosly now. Maybe I've misinterpreted something you said. Or, surely, we've got different points of view. But please do me the kind favour of trying to explain, without quoting yourselfs over and over again.

Thanks :)


Let me sing you a song / Of a world that just vanished / Of a story that ended to soon
Let me bring you a cup / Make a toast to the living / And a toast to the legends we share

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I agree with Akineko. It's your character that people recognise, not your vessel. In most MMOs, everything's gonna be covered with armour anyway. Just because you're a ghost now doesn't mean you don't think of yourself as a human or centaur or whatever. If you really want a defined appearance, just keep a single vessel to use in your EK. That's my plan anyways because I feel it's something my character would do.


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I agree with Akineko. It's your character that people recognise, not your vessel. In most MMOs, everything's gonna be covered with armour anyway. Just because you're a ghost now doesn't mean you don't think of yourself as a human or centaur or whatever. If you really want a defined appearance, just keep a single vessel to use in your EK. That's my plan anyways because I feel it's something my character would do.

Yea, RPing in most MMOs is really difficult when your character can't be seen for all the dang armor. Now, something like SW:TOR has really easy RP, requiring very little effort on the part of the players because EVERYONE knows what you are, and if they team up with you they learn who you are during the conversations, depending on what choices you make. I have a Sith Warrior that started Dark Side, but in the pursuit of a Jedi Padawan that threatened his master's power base he meets a Light Side apparition of himself, causing his insecurities to surface, and after this meeting he accepts the light in himself, becoming grey because he never goes full Light Side but decides not to fully succumb to the Dark Side. There's no mistaking that in the game, and there are visual cues that allow others to see what kind of player you are if you use them. For example, Dark Side force users have the option to let their faces change, gradually changing from their preset appearance to having a dark, veiny facial appearance and glowing red eyes.

 

In Crowfall, all RP is in your mind, and your current appearance has little-to-no meaning unless you choose for it to mean something, such as vessel exclusivity, gender exclusivity or other, more broad options. Some people don't want to put in that amount of effort. Some people do so anyways and have no problem doing it.

 

I always RP to an extent (in my mind, anyways), be it about real life situations or just pure fantasizing, and that's just me daydreaming or carefully considering a dilemma. So for me, this kind of RP isn't a problem, in fact I think it's a great deal of fun because I LOVE putting effort into making characters, but to someone who is either very used to or simply prefers something more like SW:TOR, Crowfall looks downright ridiculous.


Can we have a Bard? If not as an Archetype or Promotion, then maybe a Discipline?


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There are so many ways to do this right with established examples, the old tv show Quantum Leap, the movie "What Dreams May Come." 

 

This really isn't hard at all.

Quantum Leap works because not everyone is quantum leaping, there are already ambient storylines and history before Sam turns up and in an MMO RP setting you are not playing the "main" character. Nobody has to consider your history, and similarly you don't have to consider someone else's.

 

Because anyone could say anything and there's nothing consistent to keep it in check, problems will occur needlessly. RP will be difficult to make meaningful with people you don't already know and have a setup with. So that will create small RP circles which always have problems becoming clique'ish and difficult to break into because everyone has already bonded long before you arrive.

 

There's no defining identity traits making bonds, rivalries or any number of interactions meaningful. This is usually created by races, factions and political history among other things. We don't have permanent worlds, we don't have permanent identities. 

 

 

So, what we have here, in my shrouded P&P'ler eyes, is a legitimate rule system. Or, if you will, a legitimate system of dividing forces. Only problem: it's not really visual, is it? I can't see which choices you took, looking at you ingame.

So, the only problem we have, is that the given lore and choices don't actually fit the medium.

  • If we had an established RP-community, we could perhaps aide the ingame experience through forum means, creating a "hello, I'm...." thread, where every one of us has to fill in a similar form as stated above. But that would be, if we think opptimisticly of some hundred or thousand RP'lers, rather chaotic.
  • Or give us the posibility of an accessible charakter sheet, in which one could describe his/her background story, which every one could look into pressing...say...F near the person. If it's blank, you're warned that the person opposite you might not be a roleplayer ;)
  • Or give us little symbols, to be displayed next to our name: a symbol for every god (and if none is displayed, your against a heretic....burn him!), a symbol for having only one favored archetyp, and a symbol for the "I don't cahaare~" fraction. Well, wouldn't that be colourful?

It would be an interesting dividing force, like you say, if there were stigmas for characters who switch bodies or stick to a particular race or otherwise. This would be another one of the workarounds I mentioned before but again something that requires mass mutual agreement, unfortunately.

 

A bio sheet that other players can view would go a long way and it's always welcome, but games that have them are rare and usually not pvp-centric games like this one. Of course there's always hope that either it could be added into the game or that there will be add-on support in future and someone could make one for that purpose. (Like there is in WoW for example)

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A bio sheet that other players can view would go a long way and it's always welcome, but games that have them are rare and usually not pvp-centric games like this one. Of course there's always hope that either it could be added into the game or that there will be add-on support in future and someone could make one for that purpose. (Like there is in WoW for example)

 

I agree, a bio sheet could be useful for RP purposes. Like public common knowledge about that character. 

 

I don't think the crow/vessel system is such a huge hindrance to RP as some people believe, and I'm also excited about the options it opens up for Crow characters. Although I do admit racial tension tends to be a big thing and you will need to find creative ways to work around that.

 

I think the problem at this point is how the whole picture is shaping up to be. On top of racial identity, faction and religious identity also seem to be out of the picture. The lore feels a bit like an after thought without much concrete implications. You can switch factions and gods every campaign, as well as vessels. Your only lasting loyalty seems to be to your guild. And that's perfectly fine and I can understand why they're going this route, to keep the game fresh and try to minimize balance issues in the long run and just make it more fun overall. But it does kind of put the entire lore of the game in the back seat. To me it feels like the lore and the gameplay are somewhat disconnected at this point, like one doesn't support the other. As long as your character concept revolves around some kind of mercenary type with  shifting loyalties, the gameplay will support you. Otherwise, you need to go out of your way to make it work. 


 

 

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Although I do admit racial tension tends to be a big thing and you will need to find creative ways to work around that.

 

You can still find ways to make your character racist. For example, have them comment something like "Gods, I cannot understand how you can allow yourself to inhabit the body of a mixed breed." Unbeknownst to you, the Crow you're talking to could even have been a centaur originally. In a situation where bodies become objects, prejudice could become much more pronounced.


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Because anyone could say anything and there's nothing consistent to keep it in check, problems will occur needlessly. RP will be difficult to make meaningful with people you don't already know and have a setup with. So that will create small RP circles which always have problems becoming clique'ish and difficult to break into because everyone has already bonded long before you arrive.

 

And again, I'm kinda confused. In my eyes, every meeting point for more than one person gets chaotic, and only conversation helps.

How should I know, if the human in a game like say gw2, really thinks of himself as a human, and really hates the centaurs? The player behind the char could have decided to roleplay a very strange fellow, who thinks centaurs are rather nice people.

How should I know, if I don't listen to his story?

 

Sure, in Crowfall I'd have to listen more often and perhaps longer. But we could just take it as an opportuny for more conversation.

For my part I enjoy it, you know ;)

I'd like the bio-sheet option, and well....game's still in development, I was under the impression that we just had to shout loud enough, and hope that ACE hears us. Maybe they would bring it into the game, if we plead nicely ;)

Dunno how hard such a thing would be, though....


Let me sing you a song / Of a world that just vanished / Of a story that ended to soon
Let me bring you a cup / Make a toast to the living / And a toast to the legends we share

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And again, I'm kinda confused. In my eyes, every meeting point for more than one person gets chaotic, and only conversation helps.

How should I know, if the human in a game like say gw2, really thinks of himself as a human, and really hates the centaurs? The player behind the char could have decided to roleplay a very strange fellow, who thinks centaurs are rather nice people.

How should I know, if I don't listen to his story?

 

Sure, in Crowfall I'd have to listen more often and perhaps longer. But we could just take it as an opportuny for more conversation.

For my part I enjoy it, you know ;)

I'd like the bio-sheet option, and well....game's still in development, I was under the impression that we just had to shout loud enough, and hope that ACE hears us. Maybe they would bring it into the game, if we plead nicely ;)

Dunno how hard such a thing would be, though....

You and I are going to have a lot of fun role-playing, I see this now. If they don't give us character sheets, we're gonna have to get creative.


Can we have a Bard? If not as an Archetype or Promotion, then maybe a Discipline?


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Shifting loyalties? 

 

Another example that doesn't agree with that. 

fascination_178.jpg

 

 

Idk, this just seems so easy to me. To each his/her own I guess. I'll be playing a "good aligned" balance character, who's either a Ranger, Knight, Confessor or Templar so he'll look fairly similar each time if not the same if possible. I'll be playing into his immortality.

 

"Well when you can't die you just focus yourself to learn new things, even better is when I can learn things to help save people. Though I prefer to look the same when I'm switching around. Tried being a hamster once, yeah not for me. Couldn't take the fleas. Besides no matter what my coat looks like, I still wanna wrap m'sleeves around something pretty at night, Now then, why don't y'sit down and have some of that meal m'made over there while I take a look at y'bow here."

 

Sometimes he'll craft and cook (I want to have a shop - Swords & Smorgasbords) sometimes he'll fight.

 

I just need a good balance heavy rp guild to join up with that he can be loyal to. 

Edited by amaziah aryeh

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And again, I'm kinda confused. In my eyes, every meeting point for more than one person gets chaotic, and only conversation helps.

How should I know, if the human in a game like say gw2, really thinks of himself as a human, and really hates the centaurs? The player behind the char could have decided to roleplay a very strange fellow, who thinks centaurs are rather nice people.

How should I know, if I don't listen to his story?

Well how would you be able to interpret him as a strange fellow in the course of your conversation, if you didn't know he was a human because he's in another kind of body and doesn't think of himself as human. Or that humans commonly have issues with centaurs? It wouldn't make sense for humans to have issues with centaurs in the context of this game because anyone can be anything at any moment with no penalty or restrictions. You are a human, a centaur, a fae, a stalker e.t.c and so is he. 

 

Your example is one of the kinds of conversations and interesting characters that you can't have as a result of the vessel system being IC canon for everyone. Having permanent identities doesn't mean you shouldn't have to listen to stories (that's what it's all about after all) and it doesn't lessen the potential for conversation. It can highlight peoples' differences in contrast with the things they have in common immediately, creating conversation points and depth before you've even said hello.

 

I'm not debating that you can't RP with the vessel system, I'm just saying it's an obstacle for stable and flowing RP.

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I can see your point, and I'll try to refrain from "arguing for the arguments sake".

So....yeah. I still think that the lore gives us new perspectives. I still think that it we'll have to converse more, to go deeper into the storys of the players around us. And yes, going back a page or so, I think that it would be great if ACE could give us some support.

(Sorry, not really argumentative right now, I'm really tired)

 

I'll see. Maybe Todd hits his head or something like that, and eeeverythings going to change xD

Well....anyway, guessing by all of you, I'd think that we have a great RP community right here, and no matter how it's giong to be in the end, we'll have fun. Right? ;)


Let me sing you a song / Of a world that just vanished / Of a story that ended to soon
Let me bring you a cup / Make a toast to the living / And a toast to the legends we share

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It is fun seeing peoples take and opinion on the matter. Though personally I feel some people are being a bit to dramatic on the subject.
Though I do agree with the notion that it does require us to be more creative. But there is still room for us to play multiple individual characters without to much of an issue. In my ongoing RP, my main character got a bit of a split personality going, where he think he is about five different people, which come forth depending on which body he use.

 

Another fun little Idea I've played around with is the thought that some part of the being that once was, lives on through the corpse. And that if allowed it can surface.

In this story I played a greedy, yet cowardly crow. He wanted fame and fortune, without going to the effort of gaining any sense of mastery. So he would offer his vessels another chance at life, in turn they would do his bidding and fight his battles.
 

dark_spirit_by_newpioneer-d8vaeqd.png

 

This is a concept I'll likely reuse in game. As it allows for characters to die without the need for me rerolling a completely new character or paying for a name change, or whatever. My character simply makes it his businesses to let his vessels have control over their bodies, they serve the need of the story. Then once the story demands it or you simply tire of playing a character, they can die tragically or in some heroic last stand. The crow just goes. "Ah well, I'll be back with another in a few minutes." And the story goes on with yet another vessel.

 

I think this is a great approach for people who likes to play multiple characters. The player would essentially be the Celebrimbor, to the character's Talon.

SoMBtSTroyAlastair-610.jpg

And tada!!! You got the same character dynamic of any MMO out there. Except you don't have the characters name floating above someones head, which I think is a good thing! I can not count the amount of time, I play a mysterious hermit that everyone somehow knew the name of. Even before I had the chance to introduce him!!! Plus I feel it may even be pretty good character fodder.

Lets say crows can sense each other. So when someone comes along and says. "Hey Acid!" My character might be deeply offended, a reminder that in the end of the day all he is, is a suit of flesh. And how might other crows react to such a individual?

 

Do they think it a kind and humane action to offer someone a second chance? Or is it a abomination, that spit upon the very gift of the gods themselves.
As I said plenty of opportunity!

 

sorry to babble on. Just hope maybe I helped grease the wheels of anyone that was struggling with the whole Vessel system.

Edited by Acidstrider

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Meryk - Member

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Nice idears, thanks :)


Let me sing you a song / Of a world that just vanished / Of a story that ended to soon
Let me bring you a cup / Make a toast to the living / And a toast to the legends we share

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Well how would you be able to interpret him as a strange fellow in the course of your conversation, if you didn't know he was a human because he's in another kind of body and doesn't think of himself as human. Or that humans commonly have issues with centaurs? It wouldn't make sense for humans to have issues with centaurs in the context of this game because anyone can be anything at any moment with no penalty or restrictions. You are a human, a centaur, a fae, a stalker e.t.c and so is he. 

 

Your example is one of the kinds of conversations and interesting characters that you can't have as a result of the vessel system being IC canon for everyone. Having permanent identities doesn't mean you shouldn't have to listen to stories (that's what it's all about after all) and it doesn't lessen the potential for conversation. It can highlight peoples' differences in contrast with the things they have in common immediately, creating conversation points and depth before you've even said hello.

 

I'm not debating that you can't RP with the vessel system, I'm just saying it's an obstacle for stable and flowing RP.

 

 

Not for me it isn't. I like the added creativity it allows and honestly I've found that having to work around obstacles for me at least makes my rp stronger. I can only hope that it turns out that way for you as well.


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It is pretty simple from my perspective.  If you are the type of RPer who writes extensive backstories for your character, has a group of people who primarily play the game for RP, perhaps playing out whole scenarios in a EK, and generally enjoys creating/taking part in stories more so than other aspects of the game, then the C and V system wont hurt your experience and it may even enhance it.

 

However, if your an RP light type, (which I would argue is probably the larger population) who has a more varied MMORPG interests yet appreciates lore and immersion but doesn't specialize in it, then the C and V system is jarring and you can't help but to see it for the obvious mechanic it is (distasteful for all the reasons already listed in this thread).   

 

Neither group is going to agree with one another about the value of the C and V system because they have different approaches to the game.  Obviously, there are exceptions and overlap as it is not completely black and white, though I am confident that this the case overall. 


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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Well, we could now start a philosophical excurs about gods, and how they can or cannot die. Given that Gea represents life and the worlds/ every earth, and those are, obviously, still in existence, she isn't dead entirely. As you said: at least not in that incarnation.

We don't quite know how one "evolves" to a crow - other than that one of the gods must "call us to duty" or such. But it isn't nessecay that this call be given by the god him/herself in person, I'd say. In Geas case it should be more like: the earth and all that is living needs your help - a vague feeling perhaps?

I remember vaguely that some gods don't even give you a choice in the matter (thats at least how I want to roleplay my crow - immortality against her will :lol:), so there should be no problem for the "role which Gea has" to just conscript some fallen heroes, even if the active mind impersonating the "role" isn't around.


Let me sing you a song / Of a world that just vanished / Of a story that ended to soon
Let me bring you a cup / Make a toast to the living / And a toast to the legends we share

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I have no doubt that A method of being called by Gaea even in her state can be come up with, my concern is in the context of writing fiction and wanting to have THE correct mechanic in mind when doing so. Also of need is a timeline of sorts - at what point in time did the calling of Fallen heroes start? Is this the only form of immortality that exists for humans? If one`s first death involves the complete destruction of one`s body, is use of your original Vessel impossible, or does the god in question recreate or rebuild it in some way for your first life in it`s service, so you can get used to the process before moving on to new non-native Vessels?

 

Lots of question for the fiction-writer!

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Sadly, the lore isn't that specific, so you won't find THE answer right now.

For the timeline: Hero/ Halup was the very first crow, so one would guess that we could pinn a sort of date with him but...nope....cause we don't even know in whch war he fought. Maybe it all began with the vanishing of the allfather, but some hints are given that Halup fought for exactly that allfather so...that couldn't be.

No way to make a propper timeline, I fear :/

First-vessal questions should be discussed with your god, I'd guess, but, repeatedly, there's no clear answers from ACE - we're free to be kreative on our own. Not a bad thing, but I can understand your wish to have it black on white.


Let me sing you a song / Of a world that just vanished / Of a story that ended to soon
Let me bring you a cup / Make a toast to the living / And a toast to the legends we share

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I have no doubt that A method of being called by Gaea even in her state can be come up with, my concern is in the context of writing fiction and wanting to have THE correct mechanic in mind when doing so. Also of need is a timeline of sorts - at what point in time did the calling of Fallen heroes start? Is this the only form of immortality that exists for humans? If one`s first death involves the complete destruction of one`s body, is use of your original Vessel impossible, or does the god in question recreate or rebuild it in some way for your first life in it`s service, so you can get used to the process before moving on to new non-native Vessels?

 

Lots of question for the fiction-writer!

 

Crowfall is taking a "puzzle" approach to its lore and story, kinda like the Dark Souls series, if you're familiar with it. The various bits of lore and story are scattered around, without a cohesive definitive timeline. You need to piece it together. Personally, I find that more interesting. But granted, lore has taken quite a back seat lately. Still, you can find links between various events if you read all the entries for archetypes, gods and a few other dev articles. 

 

As for Gaea, it may be that even after her death, portions of her essence or whatever cosmic force she represents still linger around the world, and thus her followers continue to maintain their powers. Also the Hunger appears to be closely related to Gaea's death, probably a cosmic consequence of the Earth Mother, or god of life, being killed. 


 

 

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