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Jihan

VIP players train two General skills from different trees

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I completely understand why you don't want VIP players to be able to train multiple General Combat skills simultaneously, given a design goal that VIP should increase versatility but not power.

 

However, allowing VIP players to train one General skill each from any two of Combat, Crafting, and Exploration (or perhaps, one each from all 3) would continue to serve that goal of increased versatility, while maintaining the originally perceived value of VIP's multiple character training slots. This would allow me to build my combat and crafting capabilities in parallel on a single account, rather than having to buy multiple accounts.

 

The value of VIP vs multiple accounts has been questionable all along. The change as currently proposed strongly skews the value proposition even further towards multiple accounts: Anyone who's considering playing for more than 5 months has to decide if they want one general tree and three archetypes for a recurring monthly cost, or three general trees and three archetypes for free. This proposal would tilt the scale a little bit back towards VIP - not all the way, but perhaps enough to sway some players.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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I completely understand why you don't want VIP players to be able to train multiple General Combat skills simultaneously, given a design goal that VIP should increase versatility but not power.

 

However, allowing VIP players to train one General skill each from any two of Combat, Crafting, and Exploration (or perhaps, one each from all 3) would continue to serve that goal of increased versatility, while maintaining the originally perceived value of VIP's multiple character training slots. This would allow me to build my combat and crafting capabilities in parallel on a single account, rather than having to buy multiple accounts.

 

The value of VIP vs multiple accounts has been questionable all along. The change as currently proposed strongly skews the value proposition even further towards multiple accounts: Anyone who's considering playing for more than 5 months has to decide if they want one general tree and three archetypes for a recurring monthly cost, or three general trees and three archetypes for free. This proposal would tilt the scale a little bit back towards VIP - not all the way, but perhaps enough to sway some players.

Except the 3 generalist trees and three archetypes do not cross characters.  In order for you to have that benefit on the multiple accounts, you have to train x3 as long given your example.  Also, your generalist are now set with your archetypes as opposed to the VIP system where is applies to all archetypes.  The person that prefers the freebie method has pigeon-holed those characters.

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Except the 3 generalist trees and three archetypes do not cross characters.  In order for you to have that benefit on the multiple accounts, you have to train x3 as long given your example.  Also, your generalist are now set with your archetypes as opposed to the VIP system where is applies to all archetypes.  The person that prefers the freebie method has pigeon-holed those characters.

 

Whether you follow the multiaccount path or the VIP path, any given archetype only has access to one general training plan. Under the VIP route, there's a further restriction that all 3 character builds must use the same general training plan.

 

VIP model:

Character build 1: general plan A, archetype plan I.

Character build 2: general plan A, archetype plan II.

Character build 3: general plan A, archetype plan III.

 

Triaccount model:

Character build 1: general plan A, archetype plan I.

Character build 2: general plan B, archetype plan II.

Character build 3: general plan C, archetype plan III.

 

I'm not sure why you think the second model is more pigeonholey than the first. Either way each character build has is pigeonholed to only a single general plan, but at least with 3 accounts the general plan can be custom crafted individually for each archetype.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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honestly i'm split about this...

 

it sure helps against multiaccounts, and if exploration is a useful skill path, it might be hard to choose between Combat-Crafting and Combat-Exploration for those that prefer Combat, meanwhile crafters could go all Crafting-Exploration and be useful for more than just crafting.

 

some crafters might be against the idea though, considering that any combat player can be a crafter as well, but the real suckers in this case would be non-VIP players.

 

versatility aside, now VIP players have a 4/2 ratio of training compared to non-VIP ones, while with this suggestion the ratio would go 5/2

there's a point where versatility becomes too much of an advantage.

 

EDIT: I guess it would be "okay" (if we/they decide to go with this route), IF non-VIP players are at least allowed to train 2 archetype skills at the same time, so that the ratio goes 5/3, with the general trees being slightly more impactful (so that the ratio is really similar to the old 4/2).

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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Whether you follow the multiaccount path or the VIP path, any given archetype only has access to one general training plan. Under the VIP route, there's a further restriction that all 3 character builds must use the same general training plan.

 

VIP model:

Character build 1: general plan A, archetype plan I.

Character build 2: general plan A, archetype plan II.

Character build 3: general plan A, archetype plan III.

 

Triaccount model:

Character build 1: general plan A, archetype plan I.

Character build 2: general plan B, archetype plan II.

Character build 3: general plan C, archetype plan III.

 

I'm not sure why you think the second model is more pigeonholey than the first. Either way each character build has is pigeonholed to only a single general plan, but at least with 3 accounts the general plan can be custom crafted individually for each archetype.

VIP trains skill A to 100, then skill B to 100 benefiting from both

 

f2p guy trains one guy in A and one guy in B, neither benefiting the other.

 

What needs to be finalized, released, etc is what the skill curve in terms of benefit and time to level looks like.  This whole thread makes the assumption each point of a skill is both of equal contribution to a character's power and than training time is linear between levels.  While you can only use one archetype, the other general skills remain available to all archetypes, hence why the VIP account can only train in one.

 

The other argument I strongly have is that active skill use should never be capped.  DR on it sure, but never capped.  There should be a benefit to a character that uses a skill rather than just passively trains one.

Edited by Savevsdeathmagic

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I'm not sure how this weighs in in terms of using multiple accounts, but Crafting absolutely is a combat skill. On low import servers (especially the Dregs) the only gear you have is the gear you craft (or the gear you trade for from people under similar restrictions) and so players who are good at crafting gear (and bodies) would have a significant combat advantage against those who don't.

 

All that said, I don't think it's a bad idea to let VIPs train multiple general skills, or even multiple skills in one Archetype. The kind of player who is willing to pay a subscription fee is going to hit the vessel-cap for every skill eventually, and letting them get there faster doesn't make much of a difference.

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The kind of player who is willing to pay a subscription fee is going to hit the vessel-cap for every skill eventually, and letting them get there faster doesn't make much of a difference.

 

In a game where it takes years to cap out skills, letting them go faster does make a difference.


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I like this idea. In the original skill advancement concept, multiple skills could be trained, but at slower rates for each skill or perhaps they only get the lowest post of the skill tree. This way when your knight needs to do some field repairs or your harvester needs to fight some bandits, they don't totally suck, but they aren't really great either. A slow trickle would give a VIP a bit of an advantage, enough to make VIP with buying but itwouldn't be like this.

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I disagree with this idea. I think the VIP is worth buying as it is right now and at the same time it doesn't break the balance like this system will do. The current system you get a lot of versatility by letting VIP members advance in more than one archetype at once which will be very useful when the situation requires a different class than what you usually use. (Like if you can't get a hold of good gear for one archetype but there is bomb gear for another inside your campaign). There's plenty of other situations this would be extremely helpful with that makes the VIP worth the price. So why ask to implement a system that that #1 gives more power to VIP members and #2 Takes away from players being able to specialize. I like the Idea of a warrior being a warrior, a crafter being know first and most of all as a crafter, that guy over there that can get you any mat you need. It makes players feel more unique. There will be subtrees too if you think about it, so I can easily see people not putting everything they have into one tree. Someone might be a tanky armor smith that can farm his own ore. Or a burst damage necromancer that can salvage body parts from weaker vessels they find. There is a lot of planning when it goes into building your crow as I see it now and being able to train 3 general skill seems like a very dumbed down way to go about it.

Edited by silhaku

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I would suggest going even further by saying that you should be able to train 2 skills of any unique tree as a base and then 2 additional unique archetype skills as a VIP bonus. This would fulfill the same idea but, allow choices in crafting vs combat to become an even more important decision.

 

If you decide to not train an archetype skill at all, you are stuck with the generic stats of your vessel and disciplines. This however is still a viable choice since some disciplines can replace or substitute archetype skills.

 

An example would be a lumberjack that also specializes in fletching. This person has to train in 2 different trees to accomplish self sufficiency but, can't defend themselves from attack. Let players make that choice.

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Also, in response to some of the other posts: VIP in its current form doesn't effect crafting at all. A crafter paying $15 a month for VIP is restricted to the exact same progression speed as a person who isn't VIP. If a person has 3 accounts they train crafting 3 times faster, have 3 times the inventory space, 3 times the import and export to a campaign, 3 times the Default EK space and the ability to join 3 different guilds at the same time. At launch, you can get an account for the same as 3 months of VIP cost and it lasts forever.

 

The point here is that you can't expect to monetize a game based on a subscription system that's inefficient and it turns off crafters, explorers and anybody who wants to play more than one character. Its a huge price to pay for the vessel system.

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I'm pretty sure you'd have to associate a product key with each account; meaning you'd have to pay for 3 copies of the game, a cost of $150. You can get 6 additional months of VIP service for that amount.

Edited by Maliqui

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Also, in response to some of the other posts: VIP in its current form doesn't effect crafting at all. A crafter paying $15 a month for VIP is restricted to the exact same progression speed as a person who isn't VIP. If a person has 3 accounts they train crafting 3 times faster, have 3 times the inventory space, 3 times the import and export to a campaign, 3 times the Default EK space and the ability to join 3 different guilds at the same time. At launch, you can get an account for the same as 3 months of VIP cost and it lasts forever.

 

The point here is that you can't expect to monetize a game based on a subscription system that's inefficient and it turns off crafters, explorers and anybody who wants to play more than one character. Its a huge price to pay for the vessel system.

 

You make a really good argument. It does sorta gimp VIP crafters that want to do nothing but craft but I don't want to see a system where crafters are undermined. Like if you look at Albion online it has a good open world system but its really messed up the way they organized it. Because everyone is a crafter pretty much, everyone can gather their own mats, and they don't have to pick to give up either of those to fight. Add in the fast travel system to ruin the market and now look at the clusterfu** it turned into. The market is filled with items that never have a demand, there is no use for the low tier armor so new crafters won't have anyone to sell to. I mean, I would have agreed with this before I played that game but that taught me how bad it is when you let everyone be so versatile so easily in a game.

 

But you are right, for dedicated crafters there need to be more they get out of the VIP. I would suggests adding more crafting/gathering skills linked to archetypes but I would like to hear any other suggestions.

 

I have another suggestion too. Make crafting and gathering skill lines the same as the archetype's. That way if you have VIP you can pick between 3 archetype, crafting, or gathering lines at once. But then what will be put into the general skill line at this point?

Edited by silhaku

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http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/5148-best-crafters-will-be-campaign-crafters/

 

I agree that EK crafting will have a hard time, but in-campaign crafting seems like the more important and profitable route. That should mean that having real combat stats will help, which balances the issue somewhat. The player with alts will need to gear and train 3 bodies for combat, as well as actually pilot them (because traveling will likely be dangerous, and requires you to carry all your valuables with you.) I think that should make the VIP of some use to crafters, unless they can really turn a profit in the EK.

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http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/5148-best-crafters-will-be-campaign-crafters/

 

I agree that EK crafting will have a hard time, but in-campaign crafting seems like the more important and profitable route. That should mean that having real combat stats will help, which balances the issue somewhat. The player with alts will need to gear and train 3 bodies for combat, as well as actually pilot them (because traveling will likely be dangerous, and requires you to carry all your valuables with you.) I think that should make the VIP of some use to crafters, unless they can really turn a profit in the EK.

I was thinking the same way at first but in a sandbox game that has such a large focus on player choice there should be a option for a crafter to go full crafting and the same for gatherers.

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I was thinking the same way at first but in a sandbox game that has such a large focus on player choice there should be a option for a crafter to go full crafting and the same for gatherers.

Since gathering is done from points that need to be captured, "gatherer" isn't really a role, it's an objective. You'd have to either be an explorer (and find one nobody else knows about, prospector style) or be able to fight for it.

 

There is some merit to being able to focus on one thing or another, but there will always be merit in being able to defend yourself. It's a hard world outside the EK.

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Since gathering is done from points that need to be captured, "gatherer" isn't really a role, it's an objective. You'd have to either be an explorer (and find one nobody else knows about, prospector style) or be able to fight for it.

 

There is some merit to being able to focus on one thing or another, but there will always be merit in being able to defend yourself. It's a hard world outside the EK.

Right so I think most people will put some into combat to be somewhat efficient but it is a sandbox game. Even if it isn't a choice most people will make (putting everything into non-combat roles) its still a choice people should be able to make in the game for themselves. Will people expecting to solo with these builds be in for a hard time? Yeah. But will this build find its place within a good organized guild/faction that will place experienced fighter in place to do all the fighting? I can see it happening. It just one of the choices a person or a group of people make to mold this game in they way they want to. I like more options and thinking more about people intending to primarily craft should be a huge focus point when most of the combat is cleaned up. Edited by silhaku

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