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The fun, yet gruesome, facts about vessels - Official discussion thread

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Assuming the Dregs player in question is still interested in the social and economic portions of the EK, then your rare resources do not invalidate the more mundane ones.  You may be able to craft that rare and powerful sword, but you'll still need to amass the 100k stone to build that keep your guild has been working toward.

 

It seems plausible to me that the more common resources and materials will be more plentiful in the God's Reach since that is all you can acquire. Further, they will *probably* have higher populations (and a greater quantity of overall materials gathered) due to the CW rules in place.  Trading small amounts of your rare and therefore more valuable materials for large amounts of cheap, common ones would be a great way to get that keep built relatively quickly.

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Assuming the Dregs player in question is still interested in the social and economic portions of the EK, then your rare resources do not invalidate the more mundane ones.  You may be able to craft that rare and powerful sword, but you'll still need to amass the 100k stone to build that keep your guild has been working toward.

 

It seems plausible to me that the more common resources and materials will be more plentiful in the God's Reach since that is all you can acquire. Further, they will *probably* have higher populations (and a greater quantity of overall materials gathered) due to the CW rules in place.  Trading small amounts of your rare and therefore more valuable materials for large amounts of cheap, common ones would be a great way to get that keep built relatively quickly.

 

This too would seem like a potential plausible conclusion, if it wasn't for the fact that they seem to imply the Dregs and high-risk campaigns will largely be characterized by low-import rules, therefore meaning that players won't actually be able to bring in many resources.

 

Plus, each campaign has been described to have it's own internal economy, and once a campaign is started as far as we know you can't bring anything in.  So a campaign world, even in the Dregs, has to have enough resources to sustain the players inside actually fighting.

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The bridge from dregs to EKs and other campaigns will be the superguilds that participate in multiple bands simultaneously... they'll be acquiring stuff to trade in dregs campaigns with other dregs players while also wanting to pump a lot of that stuff out to support their war efforts elsewhere...  There will be guilds that brag about dregs success, then there will be superguilds that brag about success at all levels...

 

More than likely tournament campaigns will not only exist for the most hardcore ruleset imaginable so there will be plenty of competitive carrot on a stick all around.

 

The dregs experience won't even be close to the full game experience... the full game experience will involve playing the heavy import and export meta and using EKs and large scale politics etc...

 

Sure there will be guilds that only play dregs and do pretty well there, but do you think they will matter to the other 75%+ of the population? 

 

In pvp people will strive for fame and recognition and eventually they'll have to expand their guild's reach to get that.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Except isn't ACE's entire point that the Dregs has the more valuable stuff?  So how exactly are the other CWs contributing to the economies?  That's literally waht I've been asking since the first point.  What are the God's Reach campaigns contributing that the Dregs players would want?

 

The most valuable stuff sure but not the only stuff worth being traded for. Supply/Demand both aspects contribute to the economy.

 

As I said as a Dregs player you go in knowing that you probably don't need as much from other CWs. I mean isn't that what you wanted out of the Dregs in the first place? You're basically asking what the value is in something you don't put any value in to begin with. So to answer what do others CWs have that you could want, probably nothing but again that's what you singed up for when you play on the Dregs.

 

and yeah just my opinion but I'm pretty sure your type of player, the only play on zero to low Import Dregs will be the minority. I think most will play on varies rule sets and bands of CWs. You're thinking too much that your own playstyle will be the main driving factor, sorry but it won't.

Edited by pang

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So basically only crafters that want to come into the Dregs will have any value to the Dregs players.  Meaning that my original question of what a God's Reach player has to offer to a Dregs player is still unanswered, since the only way for a God's Reach player to be relevant to a Dregs player is to come into the dregs, by your suggestion.

 

Depends on the import. If you can import items into the Dregs campaign you're heading to, you'll want the best armor and weapons and ammunition heading in. You'll also need to be repairing your armor and vessel. 

 

This is just from the top of my head.

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This too would seem like a potential plausible conclusion, if it wasn't for the fact that they seem to imply the Dregs and high-risk campaigns will largely be characterized by low-import rules, therefore meaning that players won't actually be able to bring in many resources.

 

High-risk being married to low-import is not set in stone.

 

See this post from Todd in reply to a question I asked about FFA being tied to no-import.

 

 

These are all separate design knobs.  They aren't tied together.  We intend to have different rules settings for different Campaigns WITHIN each band. Not all "Dregs" campaigns are going to be the same.  The illustrations were only intended to get example settings that we think will work well together; not to say "every World in this band works exactly like this."


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This too would seem like a potential plausible conclusion, if it wasn't for the fact that they seem to imply the Dregs and high-risk campaigns will largely be characterized by low-import rules, therefore meaning that players won't actually be able to bring in many resources.

 

Plus, each campaign has been described to have it's own internal economy, and once a campaign is started as far as we know you can't bring anything in.  So a campaign world, even in the Dregs, has to have enough resources to sustain the players inside actually fighting.

 

 

You confuse having "rare" items with having "useful" ones.

 

For instance, there could be a common iron ore that you can find in God's Reach, and a crafter can make iron armor out of it. Great.

 

In the Dregs, there could be some greater abundance of mithril, a high-class metal ore, which a crafter can make high-class mithril armor from.

 

However, a Dregs player who isn't a crafter on their own will only have the mithril ore. You can't wear ore, nor can you wield it. To the Dregs player, the mithril ore is useless without a crafter. Thus, you hold onto it until you can bring it out of the Dregs and to a crafter who can turn it into an awesome new piece of gear for you.

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In pvp people will strive for fame and recognition and eventually they'll have to expand their guild's reach to get that.

 

This is a fairly logical estimation, but also seems at odds with some of what ACE has said/promised, which is largely my concern.  It's not that I can't think of ways the economy works, it's that I can't think of any that really fit with what ACE claims they want.  

 

What you describe essentially becomes less of a "Campaigns are a single entity where a winner emerges," and instead more of a "Campaigns must become small stepping stones, varying zones of utility, and the real game takes place between Guilds competing across the whole game."  Which is functionally ok, but in the end is just going to be another Uncle Bob game, and really the same exact persistent world game as Eve, just with a concept where solar systems (read: Campaigns) pop into place and die out after X amount of time.

 

It also brings up a question of how the guilds trying to compete in the Dregs to export resources will compete with the guilds that just stay in the dregs and don't need resources, but that's more a function of how prevalent those segments of the community are.

 

 

The most valuable stuff sure but not the only stuff worth being traded for. Supply/Demand both aspects contribute to the economy.

 

As I said as a Dregs player you go in knowing that you probably don't need as much from other CWs. I mean isn't that what you wanted out of the Dregs in the first place? You're basically asking what the value is in something you don't put any value in to begin with. So to answer what do others CWs have that you could want, probably nothing but again that's what you singed up for when you play on the Dregs.

 

and yeah just my opinion but I'm pretty sure your type of player, the only play on zero to low Import Dregs will be the minority. I think most will play on varies rule sets and bands of CWs. You're thinking too much that your own playstyle will be the main driving factor, sorry but it won't.

 

Not sure where you get any kinds of assumptions of you're making about my playstyle, but all I'm asking for is some consistency from what ACE is saying.  They want Dregs to be self-contained hardcore campaigns with guilds vying for power and playing the deep political game...but actually the Dregs is just going to be a place for the people in the other campaigns to come and temporarily farm resources?  How will those two be married?  How will the Dregs be anything more than an open-PvP resource farming ground?

 

And what makes that any different than Eve?  The safe stuff in all the 1.0 space, the dangerous stuff in all the 0 sec space, and massive guilds constantly vying for uncle bob position?

 

That's really my question.  How can all these things be married effectively?  Sure, some of what of you all have responded with are valid ways to make an economy function.  But at what costs?

 

Edit to avoid a doublepost:

 

...and then there are weird responses like these that somehow seem to imagine that crafters never come into the dregs at all, which makes absolutely no sense, since how will a guild compete in a dregs campaign if they don't bring in any crafters...?

 

 

However, a Dregs player who isn't a crafter on their own will only have the mithril ore. You can't wear ore, nor can you wield it. To the Dregs player, the mithril ore is useless without a crafter. Thus, you hold onto it until you can bring it out of the Dregs and to a crafter who can turn it into an awesome new piece of gear for you.

 
Edited by theDoctor

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High-risk being married to low-import is not set in stone.

 

See this post from Todd in reply to a question I asked about FFA being tied to no-import.

 

I think as a design, ACE is looking to tie High Risk to Low Import, as they've said multiple times that the most valuable items will likely be in the most dangerous bands thus driving people to engage in those bands to be able to have some of the best stuff.  While the exact rules are not in stone, if they allowed a dregs to vary too drastically from their base ruleset, it would have significant and unfair ramifications on the economy as a whole.

 

You confuse having "rare" items with having "useful" ones.

 

For instance, there could be a common iron ore that you can find in God's Reach, and a crafter can make iron armor out of it. Great.

 

In the Dregs, there could be some greater abundance of mithril, a high-class metal ore, which a crafter can make high-class mithril armor from.

 

However, a Dregs player who isn't a crafter on their own will only have the mithril ore. You can't wear ore, nor can you wield it. To the Dregs player, the mithril ore is useless without a crafter. Thus, you hold onto it until you can bring it out of the Dregs and to a crafter who can turn it into an awesome new piece of gear for you.

 

A dregs player who can't import, or is greatly restricted on imports, will have no use for any mithril armor crafted in the EK.

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This is a fairly logical estimation, but also seems at odds with some of what ACE has said/promised, which is largely my concern.  It's not that I can't think of ways the economy works, it's that I can't think of any that really fit with what ACE claims they want.  

 

What you describe essentially becomes less of a "Campaigns are a single entity where a winner emerges," and instead more of a "Campaigns must become small stepping stones, varying zones of utility, and the real game takes place between Guilds competing across the whole game."  Which is functionally ok, but in the end is just going to be another Uncle Bob game, and really the same exact persistent world game as Eve, just with a concept where solar systems (read: Campaigns) pop into place and die out after X amount of time.

 

It also brings up a question of how the guilds trying to compete in the Dregs to export resources will compete with the guilds that just stay in the dregs and don't need resources, but that's more a function of how prevalent those segments of the community are.

 

 

Well think about the recruitment for such a thing too... how easy will it be to find players who just want to stay in the dregs and don't really care about the metagame for crowfall... compared to guilds who participate in multiple areas and by doing so can also recruit due to casting a wider net and then start integrating other players back into the dregs for the sake of the guild where those players might not have touched it otherwise. 

 

Guilds that have people participating in all bands and such are offering a much more diverse play experience than a guild that is just dregs 24-7... In the end that might lead to part-time dregs players but it may also keep players from getting burned out because the guild is giving them more variety in experience. 

 

This especially holds true because 1 guild per account... so joining a dregs only guild that has no interest in participating in other bands could really tie your hands. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I think as a design, ACE is looking to tie High Risk to Low Import, as they've said multiple times that the most valuable items will likely be in the most dangerous bands thus driving people to engage in those bands to be able to have some of the best stuff.  While the exact rules are not in stone, if they allowed a dregs to vary too drastically from their base ruleset, it would have significant and unfair ramifications on the economy as a whole.

 

You just explained how "most valuable" needs to come from "most dangerous" and I agree with that.

 

You did not support an argument for why High Risk needs to be Low Import.

 

If you ask me, a High Import Dregs campaign would be even more high risk than a No Import Dregs campaign. You might import a bunch of valuable stuff in the hopes of having an edge, only to watch it all get lost and looted, and then you fail to win the campaign, with the result being that you left the campaign with less stuff than you started it. In a no import campaign, you don't have to worry about losing that sort of investment.

Edited by Jah

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Well think about the recruitment for such a thing too... how easy will it be to find players who just want to stay in the dregs and don't really care about the metagame for crowfall... compared to guilds who participate in multiple areas and by doing so can also recruit due to casting a wider net and then start integrating other players back into the dregs for the sake of the guild where those players might not have touched it otherwise. 

 

Guilds that have people participating in all bands and such are offering a much more diverse play experience than a guild that is just dregs 24-7... In the end that might lead to part-time dregs players but it may also keep players from getting burned out because the guild is giving them more variety in experience. 

 

This especially holds true because 1 guild per account... so joining a dregs only guild that has no interest in participating in other bands could really tie your hands. 

 

Again, I think you're mostly hitting the nail in the head...I just kinda want us all to acknowledge that's not what ACE has generally described, and is certainly not a game in which Uncle Bob is in any way removed.  And mostly, I want ACE to acknowledge that fact.  If the whole core of the game becomes these guilds competing across a ton of campaigns and managing their economy, that's really not any different than Eve or Albion Online or w.e open-world high security/low security MMO.  And their consistent promise that full time Dregs players would be a core audience is just a bit conflicted with that. 

 

Again, not really saying what is good or bad, or what I want.  I'm just trying to point out the inconsistency.

 

 

You just explained how "most valuable" needs to come from "most dangerous" and I agree with that.

 

You did not support an argument for why High Risk needs to be Low Import.

 

If you ask me, a High Import Dregs campaign would be even more high risk than a No Import Dregs campaign. You might import a bunch of valuable stuff in the hopes of having an edge, only to watch it all get lost and looted, and then you fail to win the campaign, with the result being that you left the campaign with less stuff than you started it.

 

Because that would entirely be the Uncle Bob gameplay they specifically addressed in the kickstarter.

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Because that would entirely be the Uncle Bob gameplay they specifically addressed in the kickstarter.

 

I think people take the Uncle Bob thing a bit far. That Uncle Bob metaphor was meant to rationalize temporary campaigns. I don't think it was meant to convey a fanatical opposition to Import campaigns.

 

The fact that there is something "Uncle Bobby" about an High Import Dregs Campaign does not mean anything, really.


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I think people take the Uncle Bob thing a bit far. That Uncle Bob metaphor was meant to rationalize temporary campaigns. I don't think it was meant to convey a fanatical opposition to Import campaigns.

 

The fact that there is something "Uncle Bobby" about an High Import Dregs Campaign does not mean anything, really.

 

It means that people don't go in with a fair shot at victory.  Which is the entire beginning premise of the entire game and kickstarter originally.  That the Campaigns would be a equal-grounds battle.  They compared it directly to a soccer game.  I don't think it's "a bit far" at all to claim that ACE's original vision seemed to imply that Campaigns, on average, were intended to start everyone off on an equal footing.  To deny that is to have missed their entire vision.

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I think people take the Uncle Bob thing a bit far. That Uncle Bob metaphor was meant to rationalize temporary campaigns. I don't think it was meant to convey a fanatical opposition to Import campaigns.

 

The fact that there is something "Uncle Bobby" about an High Import Dregs Campaign does not mean anything, really.

His point is that the people who have the best stuff going into those campaigns brought that stuff from past successes and will have significant advantages over those who don't have those resources.  Effectively, because you won, you'll have the best chance at winning again.

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Again, I think you're mostly hitting the nail in the head...I just kinda want us all to acknowledge that's not what ACE has generally described, and is certainly not a game in which Uncle Bob is in any way removed.  And mostly, I want ACE to acknowledge that fact.  If the whole core of the game becomes these guilds competing across a ton of campaigns and managing their economy, that's really not any different than Eve or Albion Online or w.e open-world high security/low security MMO.  And their consistent promise that full time Dregs players would be a core audience is just a bit conflicted with that. 

 

Again, not really saying what is good or bad, or what I want.  I'm just trying to point out the inconsistency.

 

 

I don't think it will be the whole core of the game but it will definitely be one way for megaguilds to play the game.

 

As for the uncle bob thing... it's only a factor as much as people want it to be... some people love uncle bob elements, so maybe they go into campaigns where those elements can really matter with lots of import and such... others don't have to play in high import campaigns, they just aren't experiencing all areas of the game if they choose to ignore most of the persistent elements of the game. 

 

I don't really ever believe full time dregs players were the core audience... i mean their core module was the dregs because that would have been the minimal they could launch with while remaining unique enough to draw interest... but they blew away their crowdfunding expectations so the game started rapidly changing as each new stretch goal was added.  I don't mind their design because there are probably way more people that are interested in playing dregs part time (they still help populate it) than there are interested in it full time.  And probably the only way you can really uncle bob a low import dregs campaign is through vip token trading from EK for goods in the dregs, or through politics and guild recruitment via the metagame. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I don't think it will be the whole core of the game but it will definitely be one way for megaguilds to play the game.

 

As for the uncle bob thing... it's only a factor as much as people want it to be... some people love uncle bob elements, so maybe they go into campaigns where those elements can really matter with lots of import and such... others don't have to play in high import campaigns, they just aren't experiencing all areas of the game if they choose to ignore most of the persistent elements of the game. 

 

I don't really ever believe full time dregs players were the core audience... i mean their core module was the dregs because that would have been the minimal they could launch with while remaining unique enough to draw interest... but they blew away their crowdfunding expectations so the game started rapidly changing as each new stretch goal was added.  I don't mind their design because there are probably way more people that are interested in playing dregs part time (they still help populate it) than there are interested in it full time.  And probably the only way you can really uncle bob a low import dregs campaign is through vip token trading from EK for goods in the dregs, or through politics and guild recruitment via the metagame. 

 

We've witnessed mega guilds form in any game that makes it an efficient means of progression and success.  While the Low/No import campaigns allow players to avoid those "Uncle Bob" mega guilds, it's an issue that this system was built to tackle head on.  Which is why these questions seem to have merit.

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If we start using the blizztard color coding system, I'm out, and that's serious.

 

For the first time ever, I sincerely hope we start using the blizztard color coding system.

 

Pretty sure there will still be importing allowed on the inner bands, it'll just be highly restricted. The CW's with zero Import will likely be the rarity compared to others with very restricted rules.

 

Yet more rampant, baseless speculation from pang. Declaiming condescendingly his total guesses with no supporting evidence. Stay gold, Ponyboy.


I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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We've witnessed mega guilds form in any game that makes it an efficient means of progression and success.  While the Low/No import campaigns allow players to avoid those "Uncle Bob" mega guilds, it's an issue that this system was built to tackle head on.  Which is why these questions seem to have merit.

I don't think it was ever expected to fully tackle them aside from providing some rulesets where they won't matter much...

 

Obviously anytime there is import and export the chance for persistence and uncle bob is always going to loom.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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