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The fun, yet gruesome, facts about vessels - Official discussion thread


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His point is that the people who have the best stuff going into those campaigns brought that stuff from past successes and will have significant advantages over those who don't have those resources.  Effectively, because you won, you'll have the best chance at winning again.

 

They will also be putting those "significant advantages" at risk. The more they bring it, the higher the risk.

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They will also be putting those "significant advantages" at risk. The more they bring it, the higher the risk.

 

If we agree to a fight and I bring a $500 gun and you bring a $40 knife, if I lose... sure I risked much more.  But, I'd have to be pretty incompetent to lose.

 

If we assume we both brought equal value to the campaign...

 

If I brought a very unique $500 gun that I earned over months of hard work and it could stop bullets and you brought a gun that you bought for $500 after selling your VIP, we both brought $500 guns... but you're still far from an equal.  Why reset the worlds if you allow those who had advantages in the last CW's to bring them into the new CW's?

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Once a Dregs player is looking at playing an Import game, the whole economy should become relevant. If the best Crafter in the game lives in an EK, why wouldn't a Dregs player go to that person, supply best materials, get best gear, and then bring that stuff to an Import-enabled Dregs campaign?

 

Have you never played an MMO before? In what game has there ever been a "best Crafter in the game"?

 

IF there were such a thing as a "best Crafter in the game", why would that crafter be any more likely to be in an EK than The Dregs? In fact, wouldn't that crafter be far more likely to be in a The Dregs campaign, so she'd have the greatest access to the most top-end resources, which certainly would be necessary to be the "best Crafter in the game" in the first place? You're arguing against yourself, and you don't even realize it.

 

IF there were such a thing as a "best Crafter in the game", exactly how much better is "best" than "not quite best"? Is it seriously worth hunting down someone with an infinitesimally better crafting ability who therefore charges an order of magnitude more? Or does it make infinitely more sense to go with the "certainly good enough" crafter who's in your guild, or maybe on your second account? You have a piss-poor grasp of market dynamics.

 

IN REALITY the closest we could possibly have to the "best Crafter in the game" would be someone who had simply dedicated more training time than anyone else in a particular skill, which would make them the "best Hyper-Specific Item Crafter in the game", and mega super terrible at crafting anything else, because if they'd trained anything else at all, certainly someone else would have trained as much as them in that one thing. Even then, why couldn't two people have trained nothing else but that one thing? Or seventy-seven people?

 

You have fabricated a nonsensical fiction in your mind that will never bear out in reality. You are making absolute and wide-ranging arguments based on that nonsensical fiction. Not surprisingly, the conclusions of your arguments are nonsense.

 

and yeah just my opinion but I'm pretty sure your type of player, the only play on zero to low Import Dregs will be the minority. I think most will play on varies rule sets and bands of CWs. You're thinking too much that your own playstyle will be the main driving factor, sorry but it won't.

 

That opinion you're "pretty sure" of is not based on any observable reality. This game is fundamentally conceived for the kind of player you suggest "will be the minority". But don't take my word for it:

 

No, the Dregs is the ruleset you guys are going to want. I picked the Dregs first because we might not have made ANY stretch goals, and I wanted to make sure you guys were covered on the core experience.

Honestly, it was a gut call on which one should be done and in which order. I think this is the right approach.

 

Todd

ACE

I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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Why reset the worlds if you allow those who had advantages in the last CW's to bring them into the new CW's?

 

You'll have to ask ArtCraft. They are the ones who decided to allow imports for most campaigns.

 

My guess is that they simply wanted to tone down the Uncle Bob effect, not to try to completely eliminate it.

 

If we can have factional campaigns with Import in this game, I see no reason at all that we can't have FFA campaigns with Import. People that don't want to play Import campaigns can still choose not to.

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Have you never played an MMO before? In what game has there ever been a "best Crafter in the game"?

<snip>

You have fabricated a nonsensical fiction in your mind that will never bear out in reality. You are making absolute and wide-ranging arguments based on that nonsensical fiction. Not surprisingly, the conclusions of your arguments are nonsense.

 

My point wasn't about a literal, uncontested "best crafter in the game." That was a turn of phrase that was meant to convey "some crafter who actually has some crafting skill or recipe or something you lack.."

 

Sorry to have sent you on an unnecessary rant by being unclear.

Edited by Jah

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yeah, my point wasn't about a literal, uncontested "best crafter in the game." That was a turn of phrase that was meant to convey "some crafter who actually has some crafting skill or recipe or something you lack.."

 

What? But the entirety of the premise of your response was predicated upon that literally being true. Are you now conceding that your whole argument was meaningless?

I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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What? But the entirety of the premise of your response was predicated upon that literally being true. Are you now conceding that your whole argument was meaningless?

 

You are mistaken. A crafter does not have to be the best in the game to be useful to someone.

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What? But the entirety of the premise of your response was predicated upon that literally being true. Are you now conceding that your whole argument was meaningless?

 

No it wasn't. The premise of the argument is "You can't make anything you want out of the stuff you have, so you go to someone who can."

 

So, to be clear, you weren't even focusing on the main point of the argument.

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You'll have to ask ArtCraft. They are the ones who decided to allow imports for most campaigns.

 

My guess is that they simply wanted to tone down the Uncle Bob effect, not to try to completely eliminate it.

 

If we can have factional campaigns with Import in this game, I see no reason at all that we can't have FFA campaigns with Import. People that don't want to play Import campaigns can still choose not to.

 

I have a reason but it requires a very small story.

 

Player A- This person is a player who only goes into ZERO import campaigns because they value the fairness it brings to a new CW.

Player B- This person prefers their EK and the conveniences of earning gear and being able to use it from the start in campaigns.

 

Across the entire game, there are a number of Player A's and Player A guilds.  There aren't enough to really build a game around though.

Across the entire game, the numbers of Player B's is immense as they fill up all of the other CW's in all of the other bands and the EK's.

 

If you create the dregs campaigns with import rulesets, Player A's won't go there because they value the fairness of 0% import.  Player B's are no longer forced to interact with Player A's and Player A's become a significant minority within the game and are restricted to only playing against themselves.  Now, if there are 0%, 10%, 50%, 100% import rulesets across each band... how do you balance the value of resources coming from those campaigns because different amounts of time/effort were invested into them?  Players will identify whatever is the lowest risk measure to get resources and everything else will be cast to the wayside.

 

ACE would be killing off anything that created an imbalanced Risk vs. Reward equation.

Edited by valor
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You are mistaken. A crafter does not have to be the best in the game to be useful to someone.

 

Misdirection and dodging the issue. We weren't talking about "useful to someone". We were specifically talking about "of any relevance to dedicated The Dregs players". Your only suggestion for why a crafter in an EK might be relevant to a dedicated The Dregs player was that he have a scarce (indeed, exclusive) offering of a particular service, which you now concede would never be the case. You have directly undermined your own argument.

 

So the only rational conclusion, then, is that you don't think a crafter in an EK could be relevant to a dedicated The Dregs player. Right?

I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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Misdirection and dodging the issue. We weren't talking about "useful to someone". We were specifically talking about "of any relevance to dedicated The Dregs players". Your only suggestion for why a crafter in an EK might be relevant to a dedicated The Dregs player was that he have a scarce (indeed, exclusive) offering of a particular service, which you now concede would never be the case. You have directly undermined your own argument.

 

So the only rational conclusion, then, is that you don't think a crafter in an EK could be relevant to a dedicated The Dregs player. Right?

 

Incorrect.

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No it wasn't. The premise of the argument is "You can't make anything you want out of the stuff you have, so you go to someone who can."

 

Absolutely false. The premise of his argument was that dedicated player of The Dregs campaigns would engage economically with crafters in EKs because the crafters in the EKs had something to offer that the dedicated player of The Dregs could not get any other way. He, himself, has conceded that this will not be the case, which eliminates his argument based upon it.

I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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I'm sorry, did you just say, "Nuh uh!"?

 

You don't seem interested in understanding me, so it would be a waste of my time to restate things for you.

 

If you go back and read my post, you will see there is a bit of context that you missed.

Edited by Jah

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If you go back and read my post, you will see there is a bit of context that you missed.

 

Humor me. Identify that context.

I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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Is there any reliable information out there about how you actually win a campaign in the Dregs?  All the other bands seem to be clearly defined teams who win or lose based on Victory points as they pertain to the particular CW ruleset.  

 

Calling the Dregs a Free-for-all implies there are no teams in a strict sense, but an "every man for himself" mindset doesn't seem to fit Crowfall very well.  

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Absolutely false. The premise of his argument was that dedicated player of The Dregs campaigns would engage economically with crafters in EKs because the crafters in the EKs had something to offer that the dedicated player of The Dregs could not get any other way. He, himself, has conceded that this will not be the case, which eliminates his argument based upon it.

 

 

What ways could a dedicated Dregs player get a mithril [using a hypothetical material for now] sword other than a crafter?

 

Now, I'm not saying that there won't be any crafters in the Dregs but it's likely it won't be the most popular place for non-combat oriented players.

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@TheDoctor

 

The answer oddly enough could lie in EKs, depending on how valuable Relics and Artifacts are, and the requirements for having them.  We know you'll need a temple(s) or specialized buildings to house these and the construction and maintenance of these temples should required a variety of both quantity and quality of materials. 

 

If such were the case you could provide a scenario where:

Lower-Risk CWs yield large amounts of low rarity materials and High-Risk CWs yield much less but much rarer materials.  You could have a fairly linear tradeoff as Risk increases rarity increase but yield decreases.  They've said higher-risk equals higher reward, but I don't think the higher reward part of the equation should necessarily mean higher quantities of everything, in-fact I suggest that as higher-quality materials increase by moving towards inner-band worlds, common materials actually drop off.

 

Then end result:

If Dregs players wanted the buffs from Relics and Artifacts they would have to develop their EK at least to the extent to have Temples; to build and maintain those temples they would need large amounts of low rarity materials (the most basic building blocks, but unavailable in the Dregs), in addition to a much smaller amount of rare materials (for adornment and such).  They would then have to decide between gathering their own non-rare materials in Low-Risk campaigns, or continue to rack up the rarer materials and trade for what they need.  Non-Dregs players will have to make the exact same choice in reverse; trade away large sums of common materials in exchange for the rare mats they need to finish their temples, castles, or gear; or step into the Dregs and go toe-to-toe with the most hardcore players.

 

Controlling the flow of resources of each type from the CWs, as well as setting the ratio of common-to-rare materials needed for structures, is well within ACE's ability and they can base it on the ratio of Dreg's Only Players: Everyone Else.

Edited by Gilgamer

Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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What ways could a dedicated Dregs player get a mithril [using a hypothetical material for now] sword other than a crafter?

 

Now, I'm not saying that there won't be any crafters in the Dregs but it's likely it won't be the most popular place for non-combat oriented players.

 

You mean other than the facts that the developers have been stating since the Kickstarter project that they are designing a game wherein crafters are incentivized to play in the Campaign Worlds, and that The Dregs is "the core experience" of the game? No, not likely at all, is it?

I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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@TheDoctor

 

The answer oddly enough could lie in EKs, depending on how valuable Relics and Artifacts are, and the requirements for having them.  We know you'll need a temple(s) or specialized buildings to house these and the construction and maintenance of these temples should required a variety of both quantity and quality of materials. 

 

If such were the case you could provide a scenario where:

Lower-Risk CWs yield large amounts of low rarity materials and High-Risk CWs yield much less but much rarer materials.  You could have a fairly linear tradeoff as Risk increases rarity increase but yield decreases.  They've said higher-risk equals higher reward, but I don't think the higher reward part of the equation should necessarily mean higher quantities of everything, in-fact I suggest that as higher-quality materials increase by moving towards inner-band worlds, common materials actually drop off.

 

Then end result:

If Dregs players wanted the buffs from Relics and Artifacts they would have to develop their EK at least to the extent to have Temples; to build and maintain those temples they would need large amounts of low rarity materials (the most basic building blocks, but unavailable in the Dregs), in addition to a much smaller amount of rare materials (for adornment and such).  They would then have to decide between gathering their own non-rare materials in Low-Risk campaigns, or continue to rack up the rarer materials and trade for what they need.  Non-Dregs players will have to make the exact same choice in reverse; trade away large sums of common materials in exchange for the rare mats they need to finish their temples, castles, or gear; or step into the Dregs and go toe-to-toe with the most hardcore players.

 

Controlling the flow of resources of each type from the CWs, as well as setting the ratio of common-to-rare materials needed for structures, is well within ACE's ability and they can base it on the ratio of Dreg's Only Players: Everyone Else.

 

It's been said frequently that CW's are the main focus of this game and they want players focused on those as much as possible.  To that extent, the relics/artifacts are not supposed to provide a great impact on CW's.  They would be going back on quite a bit in order to bring it all together.

 

Things seem to be tilting toward a gear driven, economy game that requires numbers to maximize efficiency and effectiveness.

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