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The fun, yet gruesome, facts about vessels - Official discussion thread

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There's no mention of dividing the benefit from these "blessings" in a way that diminishes the buff, just that relic blessings only benefit a limited group of players, and artifact blessings benefit every crow in the EK hierarchy.

We can play without these buffs, but they will be noticeable enough that most will want them.

And you'll need the right structures to use them, and those EK structures will require upkeep.


Honestly, you are the type of person that is much to competitive, has zero compassion for other people and think you are better than everyone else. You likely love to troll people on a day to day bases to get others angry and laugh about it. You make playing any online game unfun for everyone else.  -Kuroaka

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There's no mention of dividing the benefit from these "blessings" in a way that diminishes the buff, just that relic blessings only benefit a limited group of players, and artifact blessings benefit every crow in the EK hierarchy.

We can play without these buffs, but they will be noticeable enough that most will want them.

And you'll need the right structures to use them, and those EK structures will require upkeep.

 

I can't tell if you're trying to reply to me. I'll assume you aren't, because if you were, your reading comprehension would be atrocious.


I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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I can't tell if you're trying to reply to me. I'll assume you aren't, because if you were, your reading comprehension would be atrocious.

Your posts are so thick with hostility and condescension that they are hard to understand. 


Honestly, you are the type of person that is much to competitive, has zero compassion for other people and think you are better than everyone else. You likely love to troll people on a day to day bases to get others angry and laugh about it. You make playing any online game unfun for everyone else.  -Kuroaka

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Now that we've established that the EK component of a The Dregs CW endeavor is minimal, we can recognize that any portion of that minimal component that involves EK dwellers is also minimal.

 

See, if a CW participant can only have three bonuses active, then they only need just enough EK assets to provide the three bonuses. Moreover, since you can get your three bonuses from the same EK as many other people, the amount of EK engagement, as you put it, by any one of those people is effectively divided by the number of people benefiting from that EK. Now something that is minimal is only a fraction of minimal. If they provide any of it themselves, the amount they give a crap about EK dwellers is less than a fraction of minimal.

 

Finally, because there is a hard cap on the number of bonuses, and the types of bonuses available will rarely change, once that fractionally-minimal engagement is complete the only engagement that would ever happen would be maintenance, which means the EK engagement after the initial setup is a fraction of a fraction of minimal, and if they provide any of it themselves, the amount they give a crap about EK dwellers is less than a fraction of a fraction of minimal.

 

So tell me again why dedicated The Dregs players, who represent the target demographic of "the core experience" of the game, would give enough of a crap about EKs and EK dwellers to justify any meaningful interaction? Tell me again why they'd waste any of the resources in a The Dregs CW putting them in an embargo vault, when instead they could use those resources to help them win the CW itself? Tell me again how the EK dwellers are going to get enough of these rare resources that only drop in The Dregs, or at least only drop in significant quantities in The Dregs, and you get zero export from The Dregs if you don't win, and the people with the most experience in and dedication to The Dregs are the most likely to win, so the would-be resource gatherers will probably just be wasting one to twelve months with nothing to show for it?

 

You raise all the key points, of course.  I think these are the questions the devs are trying to tackle, as well.  I can only speak for myself, but I expect that my guild and I will participate in The Dregs and likely The Shadow as well.  I think we are willing to at least check out the EKs to see what we can make of them, mostly because we tend to deep dive on all our games and will likely enjoy the challenges of balancing CW materials use and embargo with winning and losing.  Although we would be willing to play the game without EKs, we'll attempt them to some extent.  There are a lot of knobs to turn and a lot of designs subject to change, too - to the dismay of some, I would not be surprised if the win/lose for Dregs moves to 95/5, for instance.  I still hold out (fool's) hope for the EKs to become more consequential; there have been many excellent ideas about how that might work that I hope still get serious attention.

 

As an aside, I'd appreciate you not jumping down my throat, especially considering I have invested serious time and thought into this game's design - just as you have.


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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If I want to play in no-import Dregs ruleset and never mess with EK stuff - couldn't I be a "tenant" in an established EK with relic/artifact buffs in exchange for whatever resources I can export? I like buffs  :) but would rather be pvping in the CW.


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I agree that is a long time.  However, Dregs campaigns should be the longest in order to have the most risk.  Otherwise, we're back where I started: low risk/high reward.  So let's say for example and the sake of argument that faction campaigns last 2 months on average, deity campaigns last 2.5, guilds 3, and free-for-all last 4.  This is oversimplified because import/export/loot rules would have to factor into them.  However, Dregs campaigns would always be longest, because of low import/high reward.  

 

As you note, export rules also need to be factored in.  These rules can have as much of an impact on risk than the length of campaign.  Every CW could be 3 months, but each band could allow the losers of that band to export different amounts, the lower the risk the more the loser can take home.  Dregs being all or nothing increases the risk, even without increasing the time required.  Honestly, length of campaign should be balanced on fun/engagement within the CW and less on risk/reward in what you can export to the EK.

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As you note, export rules also need to be factored in.  These rules can have as much of an impact on risk than the length of campaign.  Every CW could be 3 months, but each band could allow the losers of that band to export different amounts, the lower the risk the more the loser can take home.  Dregs being all or nothing increases the risk, even without increasing the time required.  Honestly, length of campaign should be balanced on fun/engagement within the CW and less on risk/reward in what you can export to the EK.

 

In some ways, it is all about time.  It takes time to get item A or level B, and so at the root of all resources is a time component.  The problem with the Dregs is that, according to current information, there is little to no import.  That means that all the gear and resources you've gathered can't be brought in (let's just say that those items equal a certain amount of time invested).  It follows then you are are really not risking anything (no time).  To compensate, time in campaign is substituted because, as you point out, it is an all or nothing situation (probably).  Regardless, time is still the "resource" Dregs players are risking.  Without at least that risk, Dregs will be laughably NOT hardcore.  So, it could very well be that Dregs campaigns are longer by necessity. 

Edited by Regulus

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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I think you need to take a hard hard look at the export rules here...

 

in every band, except for the dregs, 100% of the players export something.

In the dregs you actually need to win, which would mean that, imo, ~5% of the players are able to export something.

 

 

and I'm still waiting for regulus to make the case, that based on his warped perception, the most outer band has actually the biggest risk, aka needs the highest reward.

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Just for a hypothetical:

 

  • If every CW lasted 3 months then the time risked would be equal for all players. 
  • The Dregs players would be most likely to leave the campaign empty handed after the 3 months is up, due to how hard winning will be, and the harsh export rules.
  • On the other hand, outer Band players risk w/e they import, which could include items crafted with rare materials from the Dregs themselves.
  • If the import was high enough, and the campaign's outcome was really bad in favor against the player, they could leave the campaign, with a net negative, having less to show for their 3 month endeavor then when they arrived.
  • In such a way, the general concept of high-risk still favors the Dregs, but on an individual basis, the potential is there for very high-risk play in the outer bands. 

 

In closing, if it takes many, many common materials (gathered over a long time investment) to trade for rare resources/vessels, and then you import those rare crafted items or vessels into an outer band campaign, it's feasible that you are taking a bigger risk than some Dregs players.  Obviously this won't be the case right at launch, and probably not for some time, but as wealth is accumulated, some will risk very nice gear and vessels in the Outer Bands, at which point it's fair to wonder which player is risking more.  And as the player base matures and more and more players begin importing the highest-end gear and vessels(to start with at least a small advantage)the totality of what's at risk at the campaign level goes up.  Think of it as a Poker Tournament where the ante goes up after each round of play; only it won't be required by ACE, but it will be advantageous to do so.    Like the FAQ says, If you have the option to import and you don't, you'll be placing yourself at a disadvantage but that's your choice.


Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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I agree that is a long time.  However, Dregs campaigns should be the longest in order to have the most risk.  Otherwise, we're back where I started: low risk/high reward.  So let's say for example and the sake of argument that faction campaigns last 2 months on average, deity campaigns last 2.5, guilds 3, and free-for-all last 4.  This is oversimplified because import/export/loot rules would have to factor into them.  However, Dregs campaigns would always be longest, because of low import/high reward.

 

You seem to be missing the part that indicates losing in the dregs = 0 export, while other bands leave you with something. You could go into an outer band with nothing and leave with something. The Dregs, which may have some campaigns with import, mind you, can really be a complete and utter loss.

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I thought of a lottery analogy:  All numbers are for illustrative purposes only, even the export percentages are likely to change.

 

  • Ticket Price = Import - As soon as a campaign allows even a slight quantity of import the value of that import could be anything, because quality (rarity) will be a much greater determinant of value. And in the risk vs. reward paradigm, on both ends of the equation value is what's import.  If a player chooses to import even a single ultra-rare item, they are risking a lot. 
  • Odds-of-Winning = Number of Potential Winners vs. Export Rules. Whether it's by guild, deity, or faction.  Odds-of-Winning the campaign are not the same as odds of leaving with a prize vs. the odds of leaving empty handed.  Because some rule sets have payouts for all losers/second-place finishers (or in the case of The Shadow third place), your odds of seeing some return on your time investment are pretty high for all bands except the Dregs.
  • Size of Jackpot = Resource Rarity
  • Frequency of Drawing = For the purpose of the Hypothetical, 3 months.  This does not mean time will be equally valued by all individuals.  In fact some players will have a lot more time spent, actually playing in and becoming invested in, the campaign.  I would also imagine that in the inner-band worlds it will be necessitated that players be very active, in order to have a sustained chance of winning, but that's not to say that those will hectic RL schedules, who can only play a few hours a week, won't highly value their time.

 

There is a drawing every three months:

  • Dregs Player - Tickets are Free, Odds-of-Winning are Low (1 in 100 guilds), Size of Jackpot is 10 million, no winnings for second place.
  • The Shadow - Tickets can range from 0 - 10k, Odds-of-Winning are low (1 in 100 guilds), Jackpot is considerable at 1 million, second-place (kneel) gets 500K, third-place gets 250K.
  • The Infected - Tickets can range from 0 - 20k, Odds-of-Winning are good (1 in 12 deities), Jackpot is much smaller 100K, second-place gets 20K.
  • God's Reach - Tickets can range from 0 - 30k, Odds-of-Winning are great (1 in 3 factions), Jackpot is the smallest at 25K, second-place gets 12.5K.

 

Players can only buy one-ticket per account, but the more they pay for their ticket in the Outer Bands, their odds of winning increase only ever-so-slightly.  You could see how, in the outer-bands, that it might even be possible to import more "value" than the campaign has to offer the winner, and it's unclear why anyone would want to except maybe for a specific Artifact, Relic, or just because.  This doesn't mean that outer bands are higher risk as a rule-set, but could allow individuals to take incredibly high risks, beyond what an individual Dregs player will take in a zero-import rule-set. 

 

Not a perfect analogy I know, but I thought it was a fun way to think about it.


Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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Yes, and I believe you will have options. Controlling a POI being one choice, probably made because of playstyle.

Exactly how much exploring do you think you will be able to do on a mapset that your primary source of revenue will just be from exploring? This isn't going to be some infinite map nor is it going to have much exploring to be done after any reasonable amount of time if it's a competitive way to get materials. POI and holding them would have to be drastically more viable than simply wandering or there would literally be no point in the POI.

 

It seems like you have some dissonance between what is and your refusal to want to play to any way other than what you have said you will play. The main focus will have to be finding a POI and defending it as a group. This lone wolf special snowflake mentality is always fun to read but it is basically never going to exist as a primary revenue service in a game that wants to be competitive. Numbers will always beat skill, gear or any factor that makes you think your special so I suggest you get some friends now before you are unhappy solo later.


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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You seem to be missing the part that indicates losing in the dregs = 0 export, while other bands leave you with something. You could go into an outer band with nothing and leave with something. The Dregs, which may have some campaigns with import, mind you, can really be a complete and utter loss.

 

 

I get that (see here) but time is the resource--the only thing your actually going to spend and perhaps get no return on.


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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I think you need to take a hard hard look at the export rules here...

 

in every band, except for the dregs, 100% of the players export something.

In the dregs you actually need to win, which would mean that, imo, ~5% of the players are able to export something.

 

 

and I'm still waiting for regulus to make the case, that based on his warped perception, the most outer band has actually the biggest risk, aka needs the highest reward.

 

Gilgamer explains the idea here.  I don't think that "the most outer band has... the biggest risk."  What I am saying is that if you bring a bunch of stuff into a campaign that you gathered over a period of time and then lose it all via the campaign rule set, then you've actually risked more then the Dregs player with 0 import.  That is why you have to render down "stuff" to its basic value, which is time.  The Dregs has to cost more time to have the biggest risk.  It's math.  :mellow:

 

EDIT: Admittedly, I was not thinking about the concept of time as a resource initially in the thread.  Just like the concept of what a character is, Crowfall seems to want to redefine terms. 

Edited by Regulus

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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What you do is heavily oversimplify the risk and reduce it to only import.

You ignore everything else.

Everything else seems to magically elude you.

 

All the risk within the campaign is irrelevant in your "math".

Explain to me again what you risk, when you bring your gear into a campaign that only has inventory loot...

 

What about the fact that in a God's reach campaign, all you have to do is bring stuff to the embargo vault... you literally have to use NOTHING to export a certain percentage. What risk do you take there? I'd love to hear your explanation.

 

 

The dregs campaigns aren't high risk --> high reward. For 95% of the players it will be high risk --> no reward

Whereas for the outer band campaigns it's no risk --> always reward

 

"It's math"

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What you do is heavily oversimplify the risk and reduce it to only import.

You ignore everything else.

Everything else seems to magically elude you.

 

All the risk within the campaign is irrelevant in your "math".

Explain to me again what you risk, when you bring your gear into a campaign that only has inventory loot...

 

What about the fact that in a God's reach campaign, all you have to do is bring stuff to the embargo vault... you literally have to use NOTHING to export a certain percentage. What risk do you take there? I'd love to hear your explanation.

 

 

The dregs campaigns aren't high risk --> high reward. For 95% of the players it will be high risk --> no reward

Whereas for the outer band campaigns it's no risk --> always reward

 

"It's math"

 

We have to agree on terms in order to have an intelligent and meaningful conversation. I purposely "simplify" risk because it is extraordinarily difficult to have something approximating an objective conversation without doing so.  The "common denominator" for all risk is time (see the recent post I've made here). 

 

There is no risk within a campaign unless you actually lose something. "The risk within the campaign" as you say, with a rules set where you actually never lose a single piece of gear or any resource that you have previously invested in, is time within the campaign itself.  The export rules play into this, of course, but whatever the loot/export rules are, you can still boil it down to how much time it cost you.  So, in a campaign where you do not lose any gear or resources because the ruleset excludes that, you are still spending... wait for it... time, just like in the Dregs!  You just wager less time in the outer bands (presumably if everything makes sense). There will be no examples of no risk with reward in this system because it literally cannot be.  Did you love my explanation? :wub:    

 

This is the same root of all risked resources in ALL campaigns because, remember, whether it is time in the campaign itself or time invested in items you risk, it is still time.    


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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noone here is claiming that "time spent" is irrelevant.

 

What I'm saying is, that there are more factors than you bring up, that warrant a reward discrepancy between bands.

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I agree that the export and death rules play a larger part in the risk/reward values than import rules. It could even be possible that many of the import buckets can be larger than the loser export bucket, so if You lose, you always risk something.

 

 Reading this debate It made me think of a risk I don't remember being covered in this thread. IF Graveyards are POIs, and therefore conquerable, How do I get a body without import if all the Graveyard POIs are controlled my by enemy?

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I agree that the export and death rules play a larger part in the risk/reward values than import rules. It could even be possible that many of the import buckets can be larger than the loser export bucket, so if You lose, you always risk something.

 

 Reading this debate It made me think of a risk I don't remember being covered in this thread. IF Graveyards are POIs, and therefore conquerable, How do I get a body without import if all the Graveyard POIs are controlled my by enemy?

I expect most PoIs not to be static conquest, but rather strategic conquest.  You don't "claim" the graveyard, or at least not for a guaranteed amount of time, etc.


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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I agree that the export and death rules play a larger part in the risk/reward values than import rules. It could even be possible that many of the import buckets can be larger than the loser export bucket, so if You lose, you always risk something.

 

 Reading this debate It made me think of a risk I don't remember being covered in this thread. IF Graveyards are POIs, and therefore conquerable, How do I get a body without import if all the Graveyard POIs are controlled my by enemy?

 

It could be that you might end up as a disembodied blue-crow-skill set for a while.  While that is hardcore tm, I don't think it will be very fun.  Also, you may have to take whichever archetype you can find.  So, while you may have skills closer to a ranger/stalker/assassin, you could be forced to run around as a confessor.  Some might think this is a cool challenge, but many others will think that its crap. 

 

This all being stated, I do think that the devs said something about always having access to the low quality versions of Gundams, so I don't think any of what I suggested will actually happen.  Some things are too hardcore, it seems, even for our carebear hating, uber-tear-drinking crowd.      


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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