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The fun, yet gruesome, facts about vessels - Official discussion thread

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How, exactly? What reason has ACE given you to suppose that you'll have any ability at all to control who you're in a campaign with?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/crowfall/crowfall-throne-war-pc-mmo/description

 

The Shadow Worlds lie closer to the Hunger, where even the Gods dare not tread. On these Worlds it's Guild vs Guild competition for the abundance of resources and rich cache of souls.

Edited by Maliqui

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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/crowfall/crowfall-throne-war-pc-mmo/description

The Shadow Worlds lie closer to the Hunger, where even the Gods dare not tread. On these Worlds it's Guild vs Guild competition for the abundance of resources and rich cache of souls.

You're clearly under the baseless misapprehension that this means one guild vs one guild.

 

Even if it did (and boy howdy does it not), why do you suppose you'd have any influence over which other guild you were opposing?


I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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You're clearly under the baseless misapprehension that this means one guild vs one guild.

Even if it did (and boy howdy does it not), why do you suppose you'd have any influence over which other guild you were opposing?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/crowfall/crowfall-throne-war-pc-mmo/description

Each Campaign will be different. You (and your guild) can decide which style is right for you. If you change your mind, you can always try a different Campaign... with a fresh start, every time.

 

I never supposed to have any influence over which other guild you were opposing. My previous post only quoted from the Kickstarter page.

Edited by Maliqui

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How, exactly? What reason has ACE given you to suppose that you'll have any ability at all to control who you're in a campaign with?

 

Huh?  You join with your guild and allies--at least I assumed you wouldn't be solo joining.  Perhaps you go into some randomizer or something, though I doubt very much that is the case (devs: "we want you to play with your friends.") 

 

What is your point? That you don't get to pick the opposition?  So what?


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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Yes, you can try a different Campaign...

 

... after the one you're currently locked into has ended. Except now it's after the one your vessel is currently locked into has ended, so you could all take different, non-subscribed vessels into a different Campaign with the same lack of influence over who your enemies will be.

 

In any case, we have no information that even begins to suggest that we'll be able to join a Campaign World against similar foes. In fact, what evidence we have suggests quite the opposite.


I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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Huh?  You join with your guild and allies--at least I assumed you wouldn't be solo joining.  Perhaps you go into some randomizer or something, though I doubt very much that is the case (devs: "we want you to play with your friends.")

 

Yikes. Somehow, I gave you too much credit. Yes, of course you can join with your guild. Every single other person has already understood that to be the assumed context of the discussion, and therefore concluded that the only possible interpretation of what I said was that you can't control who the other people in the Campaign World are.

 

What is your point? That you don't get to pick the opposition?  So what?

 

Well let's review what you said:

 

I can choose to join the campaign that is more fitting my guild, experience and gear and therefore compete against those very similar to me and my team.

 

As should be abundantly obvious, my point is that you have no reason whatsoever to suppose that you "can choose to join the campaign that is more fitting to [your] guild, experience, and gear and therefore compete against those very similar to [you] and [your] team." Absolutely nothing ACE has said can rationally be interpreted to suggest that you will be able to avoid entering a non-The Dregs Campaign World wherein every opponent is bringing in more powerful assets than you.


I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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As should be abundantly obvious, my point is that you have no reason whatsoever to suppose that you "can choose to join the campaign that is more fitting to [your] guild, experience, and gear and therefore compete against those very similar to [you] and [your] team." Absolutely nothing ACE has said can rationally be interpreted to suggest that you will be able to avoid entering a non-The Dregs Campaign World wherein every opponent is bringing in more powerful assets than you.

http://crowfall.com/en/faq/campaign/

 

It could, except that everyone coming into a Campaign is dealing with the same Import rules. The key to the reset mechanic isn’t “the board must be clean,” the goal is “everyone needs to start on roughly equal footing, to make the game fun.”

 

If everyone is allowed to bring the same number of assets into a Campaign (i.e. if we can ALL bring in a few tanks) then the starting condition is still balanced.

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...

 

As should be abundantly obvious, my point is that you have no reason whatsoever to suppose that you "can choose to join the campaign that is more fitting to [your] guild, experience, and gear and therefore compete against those very similar to [you] and [your] team." Absolutely nothing ACE has said can rationally be interpreted to suggest that you will be able to avoid entering a non-The Dregs Campaign World wherein every opponent is bringing in more powerful assets than you.

 

Oh, good--for a second there I thought you had let your fervor to nitpick get the better of you and had gone on some ill-conceived rant. 

Are you suggesting that populations wont be balanced--that the opposition may have more players and by virtue of their numbers they actually bring in more assets?  If that is your angle, you've got me there, hamopeche ol' pal.  Of course, I could see this same scenario potentially being an issue in the Dregs, as well.

 

EDIT:  Oh wait, you didn't say more as in additional you specifically said "more powerful", which I will assume means better quality Vessels, equipment, etc.  Which, of course, ACE has addressed in the import rules.  Hmmm... since that is the case... what's your point again?

Edited by Regulus

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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Exactly how much exploring do you think you will be able to do on a mapset that your primary source of revenue will just be from exploring? This isn't going to be some infinite map nor is it going to have much exploring to be done after any reasonable amount of time if it's a competitive way to get materials. POI and holding them would have to be drastically more viable than simply wandering or there would literally be no point in the POI.

 

It seems like you have some dissonance between what is and your refusal to want to play to any way other than what you have said you will play. The main focus will have to be finding a POI and defending it as a group. This lone wolf special snowflake mentality is always fun to read but it is basically never going to exist as a primary revenue service in a game that wants to be competitive. Numbers will always beat skill, gear or any factor that makes you think your special so I suggest you get some friends now before you are unhappy solo later.

This is funny. I like this.

 

There's this guy who goes by the handle JTodd who has said exploration will be a big part of the game. I plan to do that. If that makes me special, that'll be swell. If not, I'm still going to do it.

 

That throw off your rant a bit?


I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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EDIT: Oh wait, you didn't say more as in additional you specifically said "more powerful", which I will assume means better quality Vessels, equipment, etc.

Turns out, reading for comprehension actually matters.

 

Hmmm... since that is the case... what's your point again?

I can see how repeatedly misreading would get confusing and cause you to lose track of the conversation. Here's a quick review of recent, relevant parts:

 

I can choose to join the campaign that is more fitting my guild, experience and gear and therefore compete against those very similar to me and my team.

 

How, exactly? What reason has ACE given you to suppose that you'll have any ability at all to control who you're in a campaign with?

 

In any case, we have no information that even begins to suggest that we'll be able to join a Campaign World against similar foes. In fact, what evidence we have suggests quite the opposite.

 

As should be abundantly obvious, my point is that you have no reason whatsoever to suppose that you "can choose to join the campaign that is more fitting to [your] guild, experience, and gear and therefore compete against those very similar to [you] and [your] team." Absolutely nothing ACE has said can rationally be interpreted to suggest that you will be able to avoid entering a non-The Dregs Campaign World wherein every opponent is bringing in more powerful assets than you.

 

I'm done with this conversation. If you don't understand now, you're never going to, and I'm tired of having to wait for you to realize you've completely misread yet another simple statement and then remind you of what's being discussed.


I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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This is funny. I like this.

 

There's this guy who goes by the handle JTodd who has said exploration will be a big part of the game. I plan to do that. If that makes me special, that'll be swell. If not, I'm still going to do it.

 

That throw off your rant a bit?

It will be a finite aspect of the game since the map itself isn't going to be ever expanding.  Manual exploration of the zones will be required but to think you are going to find resources hidden in secret caches every where while the other 5,000 people on your server do the same thing is an unrealistic expectation of resources.  The major resources will be in be sought by groups but you propose that your lone wolf play style should be equally as viable when JTodd already said get some friends?  The more likely assumption is that exploration will offer a tactical advantage (you won't know where the Point on Interest is if you don't explore).  You and your smug attitude can kiss my ass btw.  

Edited by mandalore

40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

wiDfyPp.png

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...

 

 

I'm done with this conversation. If you don't understand now, you're never going to, and I'm tired of having to wait for you to realize you've completely misread yet another simple statement and then remind you of what's being discussed.

 

Oh, okay.

 

The campaign rules will be obvious.  Therefore, you can assess your assets prior to joining.  If you can't put together a force a the top end of what the rules allow, then you can either take the gamble, find a different campaign that is a better fit or slink into the Dregs.

 

In this way, I can rationally interpret what ACE has already stated to suggest that I can indeed enter a campaign with equal or "more powerful" assets than my/our opponents.  For example, let's say that, per the campaign ruleset, you can only bring in a single "green" Vessel per crow.  If I bring a single green, it will actually be impossible for any opponent to bring in a more powerful Vessel (some may actually come in with a less powerful Vessel).  Since account skills are capped by Vessel quality, you can't start with more "power."  

 

Now, there remains the issues of population (more assets) and potential advancement during the campaign (able to utilize more advanced account skills).  Could these be problems?  Perhaps. I don't know enough about them yet.   


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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As should be abundantly obvious, my point is that you have no reason whatsoever to suppose that you "can choose to join the campaign that is more fitting to [your] guild, experience, and gear and therefore compete against those very similar to [you] and [your] team." Absolutely nothing ACE has said can rationally be interpreted to suggest that you will be able to avoid entering a non-The Dregs Campaign World wherein every opponent is bringing in more powerful assets than you.

No reason? Its one of the basic concepts of this game. Being able to pick which CWs we join based on Rulesets, risk/reward, Import rules, etc. is exactly what we will be doing. If a guild isn't as progressed and equipped then yes they should find and join a CW with rules and restrictions that suit them better or they can still go in knowing it'll be a challenge they'll need to overcome. That's not speculation or personal opinion that's just based on what we've been told about this game so far.

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So you're proposing that the highest risk, highest reward, most dog-eat-dog world bands will be where the people who are too new or too bad to have built-up power should play, and the lowest risk, lowest reward, most big-happy-faction world bands will be where the established powerhouses should play? That's really how you think the game should be designed? That's really how you think the game will be played, regardless of design?

 Wait, Where did I say that Campaign A and Campaign B were in different bands? You can't have a choice of different rulesets within the same band? Remember it is the campaign not the band that makes the rules. That being said, Yes I would expect the dregs to have a more individual accomplishment focus, and have rulessets that promote that more; and Shadows to have more campaigns with more group friendly rulesets, as they are guild vrs guild. Not every Campaign mind you, just having more campaigns with those focuses overall.

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Lol hamopeche, just admit you screwed up, no shame in that man. You're just embarassing yourself at this point.

 

We will choose which campaign we join, and while we won't choose the enemies necessarily, everyone that is joining a campaign with the same rule set will be looking for a similar experience and will have to adhere to the same win conditions, import and export rules. Therefore, to significant extent, yes we definitely WILL choose who we go into a campaign with and even against by choosing the rule set we wish to play in.

Edited by LGAllastair

KjUVOZg.png


Guild Leader/ High Elder

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Wait, Where did I say that Campaign A and Campaign B were in different bands? You can't have a choice of different rulesets within the same band? Remember it is the campaign not the band that makes the rules. That being said, Yes I would expect the dregs to have a more individual accomplishment focus, and have rulessets that promote that more; and Shadows to have more campaigns with more group friendly rulesets, as they are guild vrs guild. Not every Campaign mind you, just having more campaigns with those focuses overall.

A false prophecy has arisen whereby each Campaign World's rules are expected to be infinitely variable across the entire spectrum of each variable. This is nonsense. While no world band is fixed to specific import and export rates, ACE did, in fact, give specific examples for good reason: the world bands will drive differences of kind, not merely differences of degree. That is, The Dregs will be in the category of essentially no import, even if a particular Campaign World in The Dregs might (but only might) have a very small import allowance. Expecting there to be a Campaign World in The Dregs with a large import allowance is wholly irrational. Let's keep in mind, in the original example rule sets for the world bands, it wasn't The Dregs that was indicated as having no import, it was The Shadow, one world band out from The Dregs. What do you think that implies about The Dregs?

 

Likewise, God's Reach will be in the category of allowing all equipped items to be imported, even if a particular Campaign World in God's Reach might (but only might) have a very small import restriction. Expecting there to be a Campaign World in God's Reach with no import allowance is wholly irrational.

 

Let's review what even the latest FAQ (not to mention all information given prior) says about how rule sets will be determined for a given Campaign World in a given world band:

 

For each Band, we will determine a default combination of Attributes (and modules) from the options available, and use that as a baseline for every Campaign in that Band. Then we’ll vary those settings a bit for each new Campaign we create…

Campaign Modules, Question 2

 

For further evidence of the point, let's review the preceding question:

 

These modules can be used in any of the “World Bands” (i.e. God’s Reach, Dregs, etc.), though we expect that, in practice, they will often be restricted to one or two – as most of the ones we are thinking of are meant to augment a particular type of game experience.

Campaign Modules, Question 1

 

It is plain to see that ACE specifically intends to create a categorical game experience for each world band. The differences among the world bands do not merely drive the victory conditions, or the team type, or any other one or two aspects. Each world band represents a specific set of presets of attributes, modules, team selection/assignment, etc. Campaign Worlds within a given world band will vary, but only relatively narrowly.

 

So when we talk about the kinds of Campaign World that players and guilds of varying accumulated power will be incentivized to play in, it is vastly more meaningful to talk about the world band they will be driven toward than the specific rule set they will be driven toward.

Edited by hamopeche

I mean, I'm assuming "fluffer" is just another pjorative term for carebears, whales, etc. Of course, I could be incorrect, but I doubt it.

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While campaign rulesets may not vary in every possible way we can imagine because that would require an infinite amount of people actively playing the game... we do know that they will vary so people will be able to find a ruleset closer to what they are looking for than maybe they have in game's past...

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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It will be a finite aspect of the game since the map itself isn't going to be ever expanding.  Manual exploration of the zones will be required but to think you are going to find resources hidden in secret caches every where while the other 5,000 people on your server do the same thing is an unrealistic expectation of resources.  The major resources will be in be sought by groups but you propose that your lone wolf play style should be equally as viable when JTodd already said get some friends?  The more likely assumption is that exploration will offer a tactical advantage (you won't know where the Point on Interest is if you don't explore).  You and your smug attitude can kiss my ass btw.  

Meh, my smug attitude only comes out when someone else goes out of their way to make not-nice.

 

Of course it's not infinite. No one said it was. Once I'm done exploring, I'll move on to something else. Other folks will be defending the resource fields I discovered. I might pop in, but that's not really my thing. I'll help contest them on occasion too, but I can help more elsewhere.

 

I got snippy because you assumed too much about me based on too little information. I've got nothing against you personally, it was an honest reaction. I just respond in kind.


I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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A false prophecy has arisen whereby each Campaign World's rules are expected to be infinitely variable across the entire spectrum of each variable. This is nonsense. While no world band is fixed to specific import and export rates, ACE did, in fact, give specific examples for good reason: the world bands will drive differences of kind, not merely differences of degree. That is, The Dregs will be in the category of essentially no import, even if a particular Campaign World in The Dregs might (but only might) have a very small import allowance. Expecting there to be a Campaign World in The Dregs with a large import allowance is wholly irrational. Let's keep in mind, in the original example rule sets for the world bands, it wasn't The Dregs that was indicated as having no import, it was The Shadow, one world band out from The Dregs. What do you think that implies about The Dregs?

 

Likewise, God's Reach will be in the category of allowing all equipped items to be imported, even if a particular Campaign World in God's Reach might (but only might) have a very small import restriction. Expecting there to be a Campaign World in God's Reach with no import allowance is wholly irrational.

 

Let's review what even the latest FAQ (not to mention all information given prior) says about how rule sets will be determined for a given Campaign World in a given world band:

 

Campaign Modules, Question 2

 

For further evidence of the point, let's review the preceding question:

 

Campaign Modules, Question 1

 

It is plain to see that ACE specifically intends to create a categorical game experience for each world band. The differences among the world bands do not merely drive the victory conditions, or the team type, or any other one or two aspects. Each world band represents a specific set of presets of attributes, modules, team selection/assignment, etc. Campaign Worlds within a given world band will vary, but only relatively narrowly.

 

So when we talk about the kinds of Campaign World that players and guilds of varying accumulated power will be incentivized to play in, it is vastly more meaningful to talk about the world band they will be driven toward than the specific rule set they will be driven toward.

We are not in much disagreement here. I have a feeling we may be envisioning "large import and "small import" differently. I think of small import as (at the peak of small import) enough to outfit a person with a few top of the line gear sets; and Large import as enough to start building structures. Dregs rulesets don't thematically have a reason for a Large or full import, but an import that allows top gear is a balance changer, and should be avoided by people that don't want to use their top gear.

 Nothing in the Dev statements you posted countered what I am saying; or how I envision the game working. I do expect the balance to shift over time, even to a degree the devs don't expect yet. As that is the nature of MMOs. They will get a much clearer picture as campaign data comes in, and will adjust rules accordingly.

 

I don't feel it is irrational to believe that the import rules could be heavily adjusted for a specific campaign. They don't want to make a ton of changes that would change the feel of the campaign to make it out of place within the band. I find Import rules a much less thematic module than death penalty and export rules, and I fully expect it to be adjusted more than those. Still, Moving any single slider to see if the players would enjoy it or solve a balance issue that comes up, I find very likely.

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