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courant101

Design changes: possible impacts on "skill based, no grind"

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you're too focused on gear and imports ...

 

these ressources can be used for other things as well.

EKs are supposed to be fueled by either CWs or the cash-shop...

 

now what kinda implications might a basically unlimited amount of cheap low tier ressources have for ACE... :rolleyes:

Why are you assuming they are unlimited? Sure I can harvest them forever, but there will be limits on how much I can get. I can go into one God's Reach campaign after another and always walk out with low tier resources whether I win or lose, so what's the difference?

 

And yes, I can do both the harvesting in the EK and the God's Reach thing. Kudos for me for having extra time on my hands to obtain more low level resources than someone else, just like in every other game.

 

In the absence of hard numbers, it's pretty much pointless to speculate on what effect it will have on the game. But we do know that ACE understands the potential problems and is looking to avoid them. That's enough for me.

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In the absence of hard numbers, it's pretty much pointless to speculate on what effect it will have on the game. But we do know that ACE understands the potential problems and is looking to avoid them. That's enough for me.

 

Yes, we all know that ACE can do no wrong and pointing out any possible issues with announced features, is frowned upon.

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Yes, we all know that ACE can do no wrong and pointing out any possible issues with announced features, is frowned upon.

Don't put words in my mouth, because I didn't say they can do no wrong. I said they understand the potential problems, as evidenced by Todd's post. So, congratulations, your job is done. You've made them aware of what they already knew.

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People need to stop worrying about botting. The best way to combat botting is by giving players a better alternative or making profitability complex. Placing resource nodes in an EK will be time and resource consuming and would require a lot of preparation and sustained gameplay. "Gold farmers" mostly rely on throw away accounts and simple tasks like farming a stationary spawn of mobs. Unfortunately, mobs don't give many or any amount of meaningful resources and to farm them safely in an EK would require buying/crafting a spawner, making it large enough to have multiple camps and then keeping the account active long enough to make profit. Anti-algorithmic detection makes this difficult already but, the amount of human required preparation to achieve profits would make Crowfall a terrible return on investment. It would be more lucrative to steal accounts and sell their items and accounts.

 

There's a pretty simple step to make botting completely obsolete. Give an Automatic gathering option based around thralls or harvesters. The materials will be worthless as a raw material because everybody will have it and only the crafting based characters will be able to make value via selling the items. No farmer is going to spend $50 on an account, spend hundreds of man hours building up a tree farm and then maintain an EK and a Harvester just so they can craft 20 crappy wooden swords a day. The ROI is just bad and the chances of getting caught and banned before you break even is high.

Edited by IdeaMatrix

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Currency:Barter does not work in a game where you can purchase items from a store with no player there to determine if your offer of three chickens and a barrel of apple's is fair trade for a iron sword.

 

Monsters: Monsters were always going to be a source of some materials. You can't make that epic chimera armor from cow skin, can you? Coins will only rarely drop from some monsters and the value doesn't scale with campaign or creature difficulty (i.e. fighting your way to the sarcophagus of High King Olaf the Noxious may only yield a few copper coins even if you are in the dregs)

 

Bots: Being able to gather low quality resources from the EK is not news. How else would players pay taxes on their land when they are stuck in campaigns and may not even be able to export anything if they lose? Spawners are simply the method behind a system that we already knew existed. And you can't possibly be complaining about the spawn rates of a system we have no details on yet, can you?

 

Stance on RMT: Have you seen the dev team? Do you think they have the time or money to try to stop RMT?

 

1 guild=1 account This is a problem because...?

 

1 general training=1 account: See above remark.

 

Passive training: So? The same thing can be done by people with multiple accounts and it'd be safer. To swap archetypes at the scene of a battle would require carrying multiple vessels with you, vessels that could be stolen by an enterprising thief that sees a player drop dead for no reason, assuming someone doesn't kill you outright to start with.

 

VIP tickets: So? VIP tickets are physical objects for the explicit reason of allowing players to trade them. It's not a loophole, it's a feature.

 

Vessels: Vessels are another piece of gear. Big whoop. You can find them in-world or (if you have guildmates that for some reason like you) get them for little or no cost, assuming you aren't trying to get top tier vessels.

 

I think you simply don't like Crowfall, but don't realize it. We enter the world with little or nothing, claim and build up fortifications, raise and arm an army, and go to war with other players. That isn't a grind, it's just how the game works. Gathering materials and resources (yes, you may need to kill some instead of just digging them up) and upgrading your gear (and your body) are part of the process. If all you want to do is go in and fight, maybe you should be playing a MOBA.

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you're too focused on gear and imports ...

 

these ressources can be used for other things as well.

EKs are supposed to be fueled by either CWs or the cash-shop...

 

now what kinda implications might a basically unlimited amount of cheap low tier ressources have for ACE... :rolleyes:

That's what the original argument was about though. The OP was concerned that we could now grind mobs safely in our EKs to obtain "epic" vessels. To which I and others replied with that in order to get the best stuff in game you still need to either take part in the CWs or barter for the best stuff which still comes from the CWs. and no I doubt very much you'll have much luck finding people to trade low lvl mats for high lvl mats, you'll need to trade with equal value.

 

That was the whole point that regardless of these new or updated features that the Risk/Reward part of the game was still intact. As Todd stated, low risk, low effort low reward, hence High Risk = High Reward.

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The Carebears will be playing in the EKs, you might have to fight some other pvpers in the Dregs  ;)

 

All terms are subjective.  One man's carebear is another's tryhard. There will be groups you dont mind pvping in the Dregs and then there will the the other kind.


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Yeah, well we'll just wait and see what kind of product Crowfall becomes. The spin doctor Todd does a good job, but I'm far from convinced.

 

The OP, Courant101, has been a strong advocate for Crowfall and indeed has helped wherever he could. In a gaming community forum he's worth more than a thousand "yes" people.

 

I'm sure that Pang will be accepting of anything ACE wants to produce, and will always back ACE vehemently. What he and many others don't realise is that game developers need lateral thinkers feedback too.


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Yeah, well we'll just wait and see what kind of product Crowfall becomes. The spin doctor Todd does a good job, but I'm far from convinced.

 

The OP, Courant101, has been a strong advocate for Crowfall and indeed has helped wherever he could. In a gaming community forum he's worth more than a thousand "yes" people.

 

I'm sure that Pang will be accepting of anything ACE wants to produce, and will always back ACE vehemently. What he and many others don't realise is that game developers need lateral thinkers feedback too.

If you were a regular poster and not just come here once a Month or so to post some snide remarks or hit like on others snide remarks and leave again you would see you are wrong about me. I know its just the easy route to dismiss opposing views as being yesman or fanboys or w/e clever little moniker want to use but if want to actually be a constructive poster then need to try harder than that.

 

Anyways see you next Month, I look forward to reading w/e pointlessness you have to add next time.

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If you were a regular poster and not just come here once a Month or so to post some snide remarks or hit like on others snide remarks and leave again you would see you are wrong about me. I know its just the easy route to dismiss opposing views as being yesman or fanboys or w/e clever little moniker want to use but if want to actually be a constructive poster then need to try harder than that.

 

Anyways see you next Month, I look forward to reading w/e pointlessness you have to add next time.

No need for me to post daily anymore. There's not a lot to discuss really.

However, the OP brought up some good points and it will be interesting to see how ACE does find "balance".

Balance, traditionally is not something that is easily found in anything we do, whether that's life in general or an online game.

Edited by ozzie mozzie

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No need for me to post daily anymore. There's not a lot to discuss really.

However, the OP brought up some good points and it will be interesting to see how ACE does find "balance".

Balance, traditionally is not something that is easily found in anything we do, whether that's life in general or an online game.

and I don't disagree, one of my main concerns as I posted in that Biggest Concerns thread is that while they have a lot of cool ideas and features is that whether or not they will be able to pull them all together and have it run smoothly or not. A lot of moving parts to get right is my concern.

 

So just because I might disagree what is and isn't real concerns or how big they are doesn't mean I just go around being some yesman like you claim, accusing others of that is not at all conducive to constructive discussion.

Edited by pang

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One of the best harvest->craft->vendor resource loops in any MMO was SWG and the thing they had designed INTO their game was botting for resources. There were autonomous factories, harvesters, and farms.

 

So if people choose to make/buy/use a script to bot only specific quality of resources it won't break the game.

 

Is it lame? Yes. Should it be addressed? Maybe.

Edited by Keaggan

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One of the best harvest->craft->vendor resource loops in any MMO was SWG and the thing they had designed INTO their game was botting for resources. There were autonomous factories, harvesters, and farms.

So if people choose to make/buy/use a script to bot only specific quality of resources it won't break the game.

Is it lame? Yes. Should it be addressed? Maybe.

This is one of the reasons that I lobbied for a robust in-game macro system. It allows the game to stave off third party programs for botting and hacking and it allows ACE to police people more effectively. People have this idea that anything achieved through automation is dirty or taboo because it didn't require personal sacrifice. Its like if a game required you to wash dishes by hand it would be more fun than if you used a dishwasher.

 

The fact is, mmo players are nothing more than a machine learning algorithm that reduces a game to its most efficient form. Eventually, people will find: the most efficient character builds; the most efficient counters; the most effective way to make money; the best campaigns to play; and all of the information will be posted online for new players to read about. You can increase the lifespan of the game by increasing the complexity of the optimization but, you would do that by adding content, not by making things artificially difficult.

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@JtoddColeman

 

Any chance you could dissertate more on:

 

"1. We want to focus on player skill, actions and decisions -- not "grinding"."

 

I'm not trying to open a can of subjective-worms, per se, but the statement is really, to me, vastly more profound, or of interest, than first appearances might suggest.

 

The operative words that really drives the statement are "player skill". Those two words coupled with "actions and decisions", are really telling.

 

The trick here however is "player skill" can mean so many things.

 

Or, there may be a "limited" view of capability in the game to which "player skill" is being attributed.

 

So, when YOU say "player skill", are you talking about twitch only in melee distance brawling? How, in your development philosophy at Art+Craft, have you bounded/defined what "player skill" is going to mean in Crowfall?


“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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So, when YOU say "player skill", are you talking about twitch only in melee distance brawling?

 

I think it is unlikely that he means "twitch skill" alone. It looks like he means "the ability to do something well" in the broad sense.

 

All kinds of skills will be important in Crowfall, from twitch skills, to planning skills, to interpersonal skills. For example, the ability to talk other people into fighting your battles for you is a player skill.


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I think it is unlikely that he means "twitch skill" alone. It looks like he means "the ability to do something well" in the broad sense.

 

All kinds of skills will be important in Crowfall, from twitch skills, to planning skills, to interpersonal skills. For example, the ability to talk other people into fighting your battles for you is a player skill.

Agree. Player skill can mean anything from knowing the most efficient combination of buttons to press, to where the best place is to ambush a caravan, I think the best way to explain skill in general is how likely you are to perform any given task more effectively than another person. So far it seems like ACEs plan is to give players a toolbox and allow them to use them in whatever way they see fit. Crowfall in a way is just a sandbox Mmo that has the structure of an RTS game.

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I've read all the messages and I appreciate that you guys took the time to answer my concerns.

 

[...] As I said, it all comes down to balance.  You can poke through every interview and chat we've ever done, looking for evidence that we will or won't screw this up, but it won't really affect the outcome, because it all comes down to balance.

 

Will we hit that balance, right out of the gate?  Maybe.  Maybe not.

 

But that doesn't matter.  What matters is that we are committed to these two design goals, and if we don't get it right, keep working until we do.

 

If you don't buy into those design goals, you're going to be unhappy.  If you do, then great!  All we ask is that you give us a chance to actually try -- and adjust, when don't get it right immediately -- before you cast your final judgement.

 

[...] For example, I farmed mobs in both Ultima Online and in Shadowbane but the time I needed to spend doing that was small compared to the time I spent in player interaction activities like pvp/politics/trade. So those games were fun for me because the balance worked.

 

Eventually we'll get to test these systems, then we can give some loud feedback if the balance shifts too far into grind or p2w.

 

It makes sense... I agree that the best solution is usually to try to find the right balance between the systems rather than just removing a system entirely. I think that most if not all the concerns I've mentioned can be solved or attenuated if the numbers are tweaked correctly. Thanks and sorry everyone about the negativity lately, I surely need to take a break.  :)

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I've read all the messages and I appreciate that you guys took the time to answer my concerns.

 

 

 

It makes sense... I agree that the best solution is usually to try to find the right balance between the systems rather than just removing a system entirely. I think that most if not all the concerns I've mentioned can be solved or attenuated if the numbers are tweaked correctly. Thanks and sorry everyone about the negativity lately, I surely need to take a break.  :)

No need to ever apologize, IMO unless one crosses the line which you didn't. I think its healthy to have these discussions especially when we don't agree, so gg on a good productive thread. Even better when it provokes a post from a Dev as well.

Edited by pang

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I'm happy to jump in, and I'm the first one to admit that we make mistakes, too.  If you guys were to take a look at the design architecture for this game (or any MMO, frankly) you would quickly see that there are so many moving parts that it's pretty much impossible NOT to screw something up.  There are just too many interdependencies for any team to "get it all right" on the first try.

 

I'm trying to just make that part of the plan: don't obsess about getting it perfect, obsess about (1) setting design goals and sticking to them, (2) building a framework that allows for iteration (i.e. fixing things that don't work or turn out to be less fun than expected) and (3) iterate over time.

 

I've been making MMOs my entire life, and I think my biggest mistake migth have been that I went into the Shadowbane launch thinking of it as a "finish line."  

 

It's not.  Launch is just another update in a decade-long series of releases... generally, I now think of it as that point where the servers are always up and we decide not to ever turn off or wipe our persistence.  

 

Ideally the process should feel organic: we grow into our vision, we grow into our community, and (fingers crossed) we grow into enough of a revenue stream that we can all keep doing this as our day job, for years to come.

 

Todd

ACE


J Todd Coleman

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

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