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courant101

Design changes: possible impacts on "skill based, no grind"

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That's a great reply given what it tries to communicate is how to think ABOVE what's going on in one's face today, and look down the road a bit for where things are going.

 

For me it's not about a distinct good or bad event . . . it's looking at the METHOD employed that generated the result.

 

You tune from there.

 

/waves

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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I've got to be honest, @courant101, while I normally enjoy your posts, this one seems a lot like you're narrowly focusing on one specific low-to-no context quote from early development, while ignoring everything else they ever said - even from the same time period.

 

Crowfall was never marketed to us as a murderbox where we hop into the campaigns and kill with as little preparation as one would have in games like Call of Duty, which is what the thread title of "skill based no grind" leads me to believe you expected. Many of us wouldn't be here if it had been.

 

Take, for example, Thomas Blair's interview with MMORPG from January 2015. In it, he talks about the systems seen in Star Wars Galaxies (easily one of the grindiest games of all time) and says that "the closest model to ours is probably Eve Online".

 

This is key, because many of your major complaints (those specific to EKs withstanding) are also present in EVE. The role of NPCs as an input faucet to the economy? Check. Stance on RMT? Check (EVE even supports account selling). VIP Ticket concerns? Basically just PLEX. Vessels? They couldn't be more conceptually similar to ships in EVE.
 
When I followed the promise of the game Crowfall was being to developed into, I never saw the economy as anything but front and center, because that's exactly how it was being presented. That focus necessitates a lot of play time spent outside of the murderbox and a lot of weight placed on the value of that time by the designers. From where I'm standing, the reveals that you see as a reversal of course seem perfectly in line with the vision I was presented so long ago.
Edited by Isarii

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I think a lot of people, even MMO veterans don't realize what kind of time it takes after launch to get the ball rolling. Using World of Warcraft as an example. They already had 3 other titles in the franchise and an expansion on the way before wow went into launch. The company was already a multi-million dollar corporation with 2 of the largest RTS titles ever. Not to mention a huge portion of player base from Everquest. When they launched World of Warcraft the game was riddled with issues, the class design was simple and in many cases poorly balanced. The content in the game was a lot closer to a traditional D&D rule set, which was unforgiving and a large part of the population simply quit playing. It took hundreds of balance fixes to make the game stable.

 

Crowfall is a crowd funded, new IP from a new company that goes against every AAA MMO model in the last decade. It's relying on developer experience and community engagement to succeed. The more involved you are at bringing in new people and helping them stay, the better chance the game has to succeed.

 

Many of you have already given your money to Crowfall, so it's in your best interest to help ACE get any advantage they can. If you have a problem with an idea, post constructively. Give the developers not just an alternative but, a well thought out alternative to a system you don't like. Give examples of why you don't like a system and realistic ways to change it. Help document bugs, help fix the website, post your suggestions in the forums and participate in constructive conversations.

 

If ACE fails, we all fail.

Edited by IdeaMatrix

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I'm trying to read this entire topic... but I need to know what "RMT" means. I don't understand half of it unless I know  :D

Edit: I googled "RMT Games" and found a final fantasy wiki explaining it as "Real-Money-Trade". I assume its that. Back to page 2.

Edited by Whip

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Just remember, if it can be botted, it WILL be botted.  

 

To reiterate, a shtton of a little thing, is still a lot.

 

I've seen this argument come up a lot in the discussion in many shapes.

Can someone put me on the right track regarding this? 

 

I was under the assumption that:

  • There's no auction house
  • There's no way for you to trade your tier 1 wood with NPC's for coins.
  • The only way to get rid of your tier 1 wood is for real-players to buy it from you.

So even if I have a ton of a little thing. Is it not only of relevant use to me if there is an actual market demand for it?

 

My understanding of Crowfall was that the potential value of something could change drastically from EK to EK... or from CW to CW. That it was up to the players to set the value of something based on their perception of supply and demand?

 

If I "grind" myself a 1,000 tier 1 wood... I still have to find someone that wants to buy it off me, no?

"supply versus demand" and "the price is what the market will bare"? Are these concepts still valid?

 

Would I not have to hope that my own EK... or CW-popular-place-for-trade-i-have-access-to-without-losing-my-head has a demand for these goods?

Would it not be wise for me to sell my 1,000 wood for 0.9 coins each, when there's a dude selling 120,000 wood for 1 coin each?

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I've seen this argument come up a lot in the discussion in many shapes.

Can someone put me on the right track regarding this? 

 

I was under the assumption that:

  • There's no auction house
  • There's no way for you to trade your tier 1 wood with NPC's for coins.
  • The only way to get rid of your tier 1 wood is for real-players to buy it from you.

So even if I have a ton of a little thing. Is it not only of relevant use to me if there is an actual market demand for it?

 

My understanding of Crowfall was that the potential value of something could change drastically from EK to EK... or from CW to CW. That it was up to the players to set the value of something based on their perception of supply and demand?

 

If I "grind" myself a 1,000 tier 1 wood... I still have to find someone that wants to buy it off me, no?

"supply versus demand" and "the price is what the market will bare"? Are these concepts still valid?

 

Would I not have to hope that my own EK... or CW-popular-place-for-trade-i-have-access-to-without-losing-my-head has a demand for these goods?

Would it not be wise for me to sell my 1,000 wood for 0.9 coins each, when there's a dude selling 120,000 wood for 1 coin each?

Yep they have said there is no NPC vendor that you sell stuff to and get coins or any type of currency out of. The economy is pretty much all player based, when we sell things its to other players. So yeah those concepts you mention are valid and will be a factor in the game.

 

As I have discussed in this thread as well farming your EK will only get you so far, for the higher tier items gear and vessels you actually have to step foot in the CWs and get them yourself or trade something of equal value to those items.

Edited by pang

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If I "grind" myself a 1,000 tier 1 wood... I still have to find someone that wants to buy it off me, no?

 

Yes, and if someone else bots 24x7 with no "grind" effort, they can out-compete you on price. Bots are cheap labor. They will flood the market, lowering the profits you can get for your manual grinding efforts.

 

The harm done by bots in the marketplace is on the suppliers that do no bot.


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Ok, I'm going on a little mental exercise here.

 

Yes, and if someone else bots 24x7 with no "grind" effort, they can out-compete you on price. Bots are cheap labor. They will flood the market, lowering the profits you can get for your manual grinding efforts.

 

The harm done by bots in the marketplace is on the suppliers that do no bot.

 

On the assumption botting will be a thing in Crowfall:

 

The botter doesn't out-compete me on price. He out-competes me on volume. On the ability to supply the demand.

 

If the demand for wood is low... because the botter flooded the market, it hurts the botter as much as it hurts me. But it doesn't take away from the fact that if he's selling his 120,000 tier 1 wood for 1 coin each... I will sell my 1,000 wood faster than he does if I offer it at a lower price of 0.9 coins each.

 

If the botter sees this... he can choose to lower his price to 0.8 coins, lowering his profits even more. Or he can choose to let me as a small shrimp get away with selling it at 0.9 without affecting his profits too much.

 

This is what you get with EVE Online-esque player free-markets. They're ever changing, always fluctuating. My understanding is that in Crowfall you have the added difficulty of needing to "get the word out".

 

I guess there will be EK's known to house botter merchants selling EK resources for next to no value.

 

______

 

It reminds me a bit of EVE Online actually where you have botters / AFK miners harvest "veldspar" (tier 1 ore) all day every day.

Its then sold on the markets for next to no value. Hopefully the demand is there so the botter / AFK miner makes some money.

 

If I start playing EVE now and I decide to "get into veldspar" I won't make that much money sure... but I always get to sell my goods if I offer a lower price than the botter.

 

It doesn't really ruin the economy regardless. Because there's so much other stuff needed to make the universe go round.

 

You won't see people botting the resources that actually matter because you can only find them in areas where you'll lose your head in seconds if you don't pay attention.

 

With ACE's constant Risk vs Reward design methodologies, there's nothing that leads me to believe Crowfall went off the deep end. The contrary in fact.

 

 

Why I think botting won't be a thing in Crowfall:

 

Here are some quotes from the FAQ on the parcel creator alone:

 

  • "Respawn [could be] 2400 seconds after killed [or harvested] by a player".
     

  • "Since everything in the game decays (nothing lasts forever!) we expect continual demand across all tiers of crafted goods"
     

  • "Even though there may be room for 50 spawners on a given parcel, the cap might be set to 10"
     

  • [On circumventing the cap] if you are willing to buy [parcels], acquire the spawners, place them, do all the legwork of running back and forth to harvest by hand and pay the taxes; otherwise the parcel becomes inactive, meaning the spawners will turn off

 

Maybe I'm reading too much into it... but it sounds to me like ACE is conscious about setting boundaries in place to find a balance between supply and demand. In fact, in every communication they ever did they seem more conscious about it than any other game developer I have ever encountered.

 

They're also examples of parameters they can change to ensure a botter produces similar results to me as a manual labor person.

 

Imagine a re-spawn rate of 4 hours on a single tree. Imagine 10 harvest-able trees on a parcel. That's 60 wood a day. That's 5460 EK-wood over the course of a 91-day CW-Campaign. Now imagine the CW victors coming back from their EK and putting 500,000 tier 1 EK-Wood harvested in the CW on the market.

 

I remember Thomas Blair saying in a video the EK spawners are intended to be there for the "I need 4 wood to finish this recipe" type of stuff.

 

 

TL;DR

 

I'm not worried.

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The botter doesn't out-compete me on price. He out-competes me on volume. On the ability to supply the demand.

 

If he can produce more product with less effort than he can out-compete you on price. You seem to be ignoring the difference in labor costs. If his labor cost is lower, he can sell for lower prices, and price you out of the market. At some point, if the market price is low enough, it is not worth manually chopping trees, while it is still worth having bots chop trees while you sleep.


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Sorry for going off topic. This is the last I'll post of this.

 

You seem to be ignoring the difference in labor costs. If his labor cost is lower, he can sell for lower prices

 

I'm sorry Jah. I don't understand. Why would you have labor costs?

 

Labor cost is the sum of all wages paid to employees. Its an expense.

 

If you were able to convert in-game trees into real money through some sort of shop or website.

And you had a sweatshop of real people farming trees for you.

And you paid these people real money. Your hope would be that the amount of dollars you make selling trees is higher than your "cost of labor" expense you pay your sweatshop employees with. If that's the case then you have profit.

 

Or are you implying you're going to pay people in game with in-game currency for chopping wood for you to sell at a profit?

 

There is no labor cost here. Everything is profit. The value of the product is what you decide to sell it for. And you sell it for whatever you think people are going to buy it for.

 

But I'm being obtuse. I think what you mean is "Return on Investment".

 

If I work (play) for an hour and make 8 trees.

And a botter works for its owner for an hour and makes 8 trees.

 

And because the bot is able to do this for its owner "24/7" its owner somehow happens to be able to meet the entire demand for trees in the game causing the price of wood to drop.... You could make the determination that chopping wood for profit has a very poor return on your time investment.

 

If you had invested that time and now you don't get as much coin for your wood as you expected... I'm sorry but you made a "poorly made socks" type of investment. This can happen whether there are botters or not. You're still at risk of spending time to get wood and the market being saturated before you bring it to market. A wise decision then might be to sit on that wood until the supply is low.

 

You're supposed to evaluate and find a demand somewhere else and then evaluate if your time investment in that resource is worth it.

__________________________________

 

But you and I are on the same side Jah. We both want the botters gone for the same reasons... They affect our player economy in bad ways only.

I just shared some thoughts on why I don't think they'll be an issue. Here's hoping!

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I'm sorry Jah. I don't understand. Why would you have labor costs?

 

I am treating time spent by players actively harvesting resources to be labor. Gaming time is far more precious to players than it is to bots. Even when you do the work yourself, your labor has a cost. Bots never tire, they never get bored of doing the same thing over and over, and they expect no rewards for their work. They are cheap labor in comparison to players.


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