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I am really not looking forward to the launch zerg days


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I don't  think the game will be done in ten months, beta maybe, but not release. I'd assume the core module/modules will be ready, along with framework for future additions, but that's it. Crowfalls development has been very well paced, but there are going to be hiccups along the way.

 

The more time we get to test and play with, especially once we get larger server sizes with actual siege combat, that will give us more time and experience to figure out how to deal with zergs, if people will even zerg, and how they'll zerg if they do. I for one am all for long amounts of testing.

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How many other games have friendly fire   How many other games have real death penalties like loosing gear or your body or degrading to the point of breaking   How many other games have limited to

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All you need is a small, organized group of players to start whacking objectives, wagons, ect. Cause enough disorder, and the bigger guilds that have inexperienced leadership and inexperienced player

From the sounds of it, the improvements to combat and th intro of the client controller really stepped up their game in showing us a real glimpse of the final product.  Given that they are so inspired by Tera's combat system, trust me, zergs are at risk of being their own downfall in a game like this.  Very skilled players can and have taken double to triple the numbers and survived in Tera.  The potential is there, if they can pull it off, to really give each archetype some heavy duty skill caps.  A mess of players that can't coordinate skills, can't land skills, and can't finalize kills consistently will be regularly destroyed by coordinated, skilled, and focused players.  Zergs are especially dangerous in games where it's all RNG and you just need to faceroll at your tab target.  If they pull it off, CF's combat system alone will be a tremendous nullifier.  I've been in fights like that and know others who have been in many more and of bigger scale than I've experienced in Tera.  If CF can pull it off, trust me, zergs will be very, very containable so long as you're skilled and your people are coordinated.

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Like freeze said, everything in your post was in Darkfall Ziz, and that game has always had zergs rolling around. While some of those features do discourage zerging, it's not enough to overcome the benefits of just having more dudes.

Also, I have to say that "zerging" while a derogatory term, is not impossible for me to sympathize with. If you're a bad player, what are you supposed to do? Roll over and die and give up your loot every time a better player comes along? Zergs are almost always composed of bad players, with maybe a few good ones at the helm keeping it all together. The reason this is so is because the bad players don't have a choice. Their best path to victory is to zerg and you can't really blame them for pursuing the only viable path to victory for them. Some improve and become good players and usually leave the zergs, but a lot of people will just suck at this game and be unable to improve. Should they not play? I think we would all rather they make the best of it and continue to play, as an empty game is not fun!

 

 

However, there is one unique feature of Crowfall  that does massively dissuade zergs: a campaign is a discrete, winnable game with tangible rewards. The more people you have in your guild or alliance or whatever, the more people the system will force you to divide up the reward with. To think about it in Darkfall terms, if 10 guys kill 1 guy, they might split his armour among 10 people, it really isn't much loot. If I'm solo and I kill that guy, I get 100% of the benefit instead of 10%. Having such stakes on the conquest scale will hopefully discourage zerg behavior. Winning alliances will be very tempted to remove underperforming members so as to increase their own share of the rewards. Ideally you want JUST enough people to actually win the campaign.

 

 

Multi-campaign zerg pacts have the potential to undo any anti-zerg benefits the campaign reward system could provide though. I've made a post about it in a past similar thread if anyone is interested:

http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/10510-does-this-mean-a-vessel-is-locked-into-a-campaign/?p=251238

 

I read that thread a few days ago and I especially agree that crows should be campaign limited, one CW per band.

 

However I think the farther one moves away from the Dregs campaign band, the less that diminishing returns against embargo loot will deter large scale grouping, as the more people you can depend on for combat, can also be utilized for resource extraction. In essence large numbers of players will be a benefit to a faction effort in say a Gods reach campaign where everyone has an embargo on the winning faction. And the more harvested resources in your embargo the larger your take home paycheck when the export (win/loss) percentage kicks in. 

 

Your thesis may have an impact in the Dregs where there is only one winner who controls the export embargo and that one person or guild has to be trusted to split the spoils once the campaign ends and the resources are imported off world.

 

Regardless, if an alliance leader in the Dregs can be trusted to honor contracts with mercenaries and friendlies then you may see Zerg sized hoards running at ya because the Mercs and Friendlies can adopt his guild tag and will have their own personal embargo's subject to 100% export if they win the campaign. At that point I guess it could be considered a Mega-Guild and not a zerg, but the results would still be the same, Superior Force Tactics. 

 

But I think for the most part Effeh both of your post have been thoughtful and reasonable.     

 

I don't  think the game will be done in ten months, beta maybe, but not release. I'd assume the core module/modules will be ready, along with framework for future additions, but that's it. Crowfalls development has been very well paced, but there are going to be hiccups along the way.

 

The more time we get to test and play with, especially once we get larger server sizes with actual siege combat, that will give us more time and experience to figure out how to deal with zergs, if people will even zerg, and how they'll zerg if they do. I for one am all for long amounts of testing.

 

Zergs for the most part implode on their own, organizing random individuals, and existing clans, under one roof is no small task. It takes a good leader, with a capable core team, and monumental amounts of patience, to keep it together for any length of time. But they will Zerg, count on it.

 

One of my best gaming experiences was fighting against a Zerg 45 vs. 300 best guesstimate.

 

I was sent to scout our teleport and when the opposition loaded in zone my targeting computer maxed out at 120 hostiles, and I escaped their wrath with a sliver of health and they were still loading in when I ran for my life.

 

The opposition leader named Jita said after the fight that he thought his side had more like 350 players because he was sending random invites to world chat inquiries. So no one really knows what the true odds were.

 

We won after 3 hours of white knuckled, sweat dripping, concentration. One mistake and they would have looted our corpses and took our station. I long for that experience just one more time. And I will never forget it.

 

In closing to both Effeh and Reselath  I believe the game will be released when ArtCraft runs out of money and new investors; regardless of the finished state of the game.

 

Let's hope their Financial Analyst got the budget right.  

Edited by corvax
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I've always been fascinated by folks who are members of so-called 'elite' guilds that hold to extremely strict recruiting and then complain about zergs.  I'm not sure the two things are completely incompatible, but sometimes there is not any acknowledgement that intense scrutiny of potential members contributes to players without guilds moving quickly to large, no-frill entry guilds.

 

In other words, a key to fighting the zergs is to more actively recruit at launch and during beta.  While I understand the argument that zergs are detrimental to game health and therefore self-defeating, let's not pretend that non-zerg guilds do not also relish in efforts to make people quit the game.  Eventually, zergs are just another play-style, and can be very effective for their leadership to gain power in games.  Good on them.

Edited by mctan
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Zergs present interesting opportunities for espionage and infiltration. Zergs which come together without a strong social foundation can be easily shattered after losing a few sieges. The real danger is an alliance of guilds which can organize effectively and avoid internal drama between its constituent parts. A group like that could dominate multiple campaigns on multiple world bands, while building the largest and most popular eternal kingdoms for commerce. Such an empire would include groups of both pvp'ers and crafters at every skill and commitment level. Empires need regiments of elite soldiers, but such regiments rarely defeat empires on their own.

 

Just remember that this game isn't about e-sports. It is every bit as much about player politics as it is about PvP combat or siege warfare.

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What we DO KNOW with absolute certainty is:  The Human Factor:

 

1)  People do what they Practise, and Practise what they Do:  Numbers = Power, the Zerg-Bunnies are going to exercise what has always worked for them, so they'll be fitting Zerg-ville into Crowfall however far CF is going to let that work.

 

2)  Greed.  People are Greedy in MMOs to the point there's no meter large enough to measure it.  See number 1 above, and 3 below.

 

3)  Farmville.  Everything is some kind form of FARMVILLE now in MMOs straight through to PvP in far greater measure than ever seen before.  Wanna PvP?  Well  . . . OK . . . what's in it for me? e.g. Honor (see Archeage alt-farming for Honor - lolololololol), gear, Girl Scout Brownie Points, what have you.  Othewise, unless people are "paid" to PvP . . . they don't have time.

 

So be prepared for Zerg-bunnies looking to establish FARMVILLE, to the degree dynamic CW generation is going to allow it.  I've seen threads where people are theorizing how even that might be "sidestepped" (theoretically) by recognizing re-used parcel chunks.  Think Jigsaw Puzzle here.

 

4)  Gold Sellers & Real World Money makers:  They'll be embedded in the most advantageous places to see where they can milk CF if they can.  They are on it now, keeping an ear to the ground.  They aren't lazy or stupid, they are motivated and energetic.

 

5)  In the end we'll have to see how it all hashes out.  Even Art+Craft has said in videos they've got some best guesses at the moment, but they won't know what might need to be done until the rubber meets the road and they get a chance to see.

 

But, you can be guaranteed: 

 

Zergs = Yes, it'll be tried.  

Farmville = Yes.  PvP and otherwise in today's gaming everyone simply wants their STUFF.  The shiny, the gold.  Expect Zergs and others to find a way to map out "static" resource patterns in CWs if it's possible.  I'm hoping they aren't very static and/or Art+Craft incorporates thoughtful destabilizers to static/predictable resource map-running.

The Gold Seller Zerg:  I've got 32 bags of Orville Reddenbacker's pop-corn stacked next to the Microwave ready to pop for when I watch how that pans out in CF.  My belief at this time is it'll be less of a problem as opposed to more given the experience I think I see at Art+Craft, but it's still a point of rubber/road interest.

 

Understand ANYTHING about People . . . and you'll know what will at least be tried, at times with a great deal of persistence and determination.

 

So we wait and see knowing the dev team has a couple of years worth of experience between them.

Edited by Bramble

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There will be zergs, no question. It's a playstyle alot of people enjoy (I find it boring, but I'll try not to judge someone else's fun  ;) ).

 

I hope ACE's goal is to design gameplay that allows for both zergs and smaller guild groups to have fun.

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There will be zergs, no question. It's a playstyle alot of people enjoy (I find it boring, but I'll try not to judge someone else's fun  ;) ).

 

I hope ACE's goal is to design gameplay that allows for both zergs and smaller guild groups to have fun.

Zergs will exist no doubt don't think anyone thinks they can be completely done away with. But to specially design the game to support zergs? Nope that would be...bad. Zergs are a bad thing fyi, a product of both lazy players and poor game design. If you meant Large group play and small group then yes that actually is what they are designing for but again zergs are a completely different thing.

 

You design the game to support smart and skilled play and that's that.  

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As someone said previously. The best way to stop people from getting their group sizes out of control is to split up the campaign rewards between everyone in that group/guild. Having resources be split up by so many people will break zergs apart and cause people to go "Hey why are we splitting up all our resources with all this dead weight in our guild? Let's go make our own guild so we can have more for ourselves".

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I cant wait for the gold selling spam. Its my favorite part of every game launch!

 

As for the zerging... its gonna happen.. its always going to happen. Just gotta put up with it.

Edited by DybbuK

Sneak home and pray you'll never know the hell where youth and laughter go.

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Yeah, it's true that I am going to have more people than all of you. It's also true there is nothing you can do about it. Keep crying nerds. 

You are so incredibly helpful, CYT. I don't know how I ever managed to do anything before we met. I was just bumbling my way through life, all lost-like. Thank you. My blessing cup runneth over.

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I wonder how Warmth will play into this. The more people you have, the more you have to keep warm come winter. Also, the more resources they will need and the more POIs they'll need to hold, thus spreading out their forces more. Guerrilla tactics might be very effective against the zerg. 

Edited by Arkade
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As someone said previously. The best way to stop people from getting their group sizes out of control is to split up the campaign rewards between everyone in that group/guild. Having resources be split up by so many people will break zergs apart and cause people to go "Hey why are we splitting up all our resources with all this dead weight in our guild? Let's go make our own guild so we can have more for ourselves".

This is exactly right.  I remember writing something similar here and recognizing that it is such a great anti-zerg mechanic.

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Here is my thoughts on Zerg game play.

 

Zergs can indeed be a problem if the game mechanics are poor.

Big guild zergs do have numbers, but they also have very bad players. If you look at probably the best created zerg warfare game we know about, its probably Archeage, the game sucks, but when it comes to pvp fighting, the zergs do lose to much smaller good armies.. I think we at times we had 40 players vs a 200+ zerg and we wooped the 200 regularly. Not many games this will happen, in fact I know of none other...

 

I believe the game design here allows only 150players per "guild"? I could be wrong as I read alot of gaming stuff daily but limits like this are helpful as there

are some crazy large multi-gameguilds out there that can really cause issues. There are issues for guild limitations... such as friend play, oh you cant join this guild, cuz we are capped at 150. Okay, now we have another issue, are players going to leave guild, to play with friends, sometimes yes... this is catastrophic for many... next you have alts... this game and its vessel system might not have alt. but now, you have limits and you have big players with 2 accounts for hoarding, muling, etc, this takes up slots. But with 750 you have issues, of guilds getting to powerful, funneling all their grinding can give too much power and control. able to self fund, control markets, take more land than others and so on...

 

llegiances were born to stop this, allowing small guilds to unite,, (I think that was the plan) Not sure if good or bad, have not seen great scenarios of allegiances. I did play WAR, which probably was the biggest allegiance game, They were all run by corrupt  large guilds emphasizing power over everyone with strict rules and powers to even kick individuals out of other guilds, if those guilds wanted to stay in the alliance... I single handedly warred and disgruntled on a large guild watching them do some really hooligan poorly made socks to single individuals that affected them and their fun in real life for no reason whatsoever. Seriously, some shady epeen poorly made socks goes down in allegiances. .

 

Anyhow,

Zergs do have easy control of area's/content. This brings in the game issues.. Players not in zerg armies could never grind for gear in these public areas because when they were grinding they didnt have the power of their army behind them. But the sheer force of zerg guilds, made it simple for their own player base to grind, as the numbers game gave them the grinding area. The end result when this happes, is that you feel your gameplay is halted. Your a disgruntled off player who can't get the needed tokens to buy the sword to move forward. Next the bad players have the gear, which now your fighting against geared nubs, who now have no chance of losing, as long as they mash a button. Which is a reason that game was abandoned quickly. Cash shop lottery purchases anyone? No thanks... 

 

The next issue is instanced battles... When you have people, one this is obvious, the simplest path to achieve the rewards (note rewards, not victory) will be taken. This is why most games fail in PvP.... SWTOR anyone? Everyone ran in a pack to the next red enemy and the lagfest of who can get the casts in and which team has the best video cards and/or graphcs turn down wins the battle. No one ever played objectives, sending a party there, there and there at the same time. Anyone care to run in a circle and press heal in Wildstar? Wildstar shows off piss poor thinking and some good design at the same time... some places had multi attack, some had the circle jerks. I think they abandon the multi attack areas for the shear sake of supporting casual gameplay. Casuals need to follow carrot on a stick, they can't think in real time, so if you split them up, they get crushed, but this is what is suppose to happen, but wait, we can't have our casuals losing comes into game design logic? not sure, but seems like it.

 

To do zerg gameplay right, you need to force teams to be here, here, here and here, at the same time and I guess make it obvious. I think some WoW battlegrounds do this okay, but not great... I think the classic ones you recall and liked, all share this mechanic.

 

Lets look at simplistic zerg games.. H1Z1 battle royale.... Game is never played as it probably was designed, all man for himself, people zerg to the end, and share the victory. so much they changed the game design to be team...  Game always ends with you running to the final mountain only to realize, its you on 5, not you on everybody.... (again showing how people take the easiest route to rewards) The whole game is now alternated and you just lost that whole "hunting, in the bush experience, immersion" now its bubble gum skipping hop-fest to a one time standoff of who has the best guns and hacks. Yes, trust me, they see you on radar while your creeping thru that grass for 1800 meters. your better off running at them in a straight line and not giving them time to communicate, cuz they are not the best skilled players who can react, they're usually jabbering some nonsense on their skype call (okay enough of my bashing h1z1) ;P

 

there's no simple answer to the zerg, only experience in design to help alleviate your game design principals, The only advice i can give, is that winning, (not controlling) and make winning a skill to achieve to get resources is the only route to take, and other ways to get those resources are available as a time sink.

 

Obvious things such as debuffs for being overpopulated, are thoughts... or buffs to opponents, are always helpful to deter mindless zerg tactics. But if larger guilds should lose more when LOSING, is a good way to look at design as well. And make victories for the smaller guilds more tantalizing.

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TL;DR guy. I don't know what you said but I'm sure it could've been done in a paragraph or less. 

You are so incredibly helpful, CYT. I don't know how I ever managed to do anything before we met. I was just bumbling my way through life, all lost-like. Thank you. My blessing cup runneth over.

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This game is an unholy union between EVE Online, Game of Thrones and Walking dead.

(@OP) If what you're afraid of actually happens... i'd say working as intended.

 

But take solace in the fact that there's dying worlds, caps to guilds/alliances and that not everyone can win... that should help change the political arena of things more than in something like EVE. This changing political arena is part of the game you signed up for. Nobody likes losing... but you're gonna do a lot of it. I think everyone will.

Edited by Whip
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This game is an unholy union between EVE Online, Game of Thrones and Walking dead.

(@OP) If what you're afraid of actually happens... i'd say working as intended.

 

But take solace in the fact that there's dying worlds, caps to guilds/alliances and that not everyone can win... that should help change the political arena of things more than in something like EVE. This changing political arena is part of the game you signed up for. Nobody likes losing... but you're gonna do a lot of it. I think everyone will.

I am not foreign to the world of Zergs... I am well aware how they work, what stops them, etc.

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