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Jekyll

Vessel rarity identifiable by size

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With all the hype about vessel customization and rarity we will need a way to easily identify the more valuable equipped bodies.

-A possible solution: Scale up player body size by equipped vessel rarity

 

For example, a body from a Warlord's mausoleum in the Dregs would be head and shoulders taller (10-15% scaled up?) than a corpse from a mass grave in God's Reach

 

This^ could also reduce the Art-departments workload to an extra line of script on all equable items.

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I really wouldn't want my stealth/thief-like characters being bigger than everyone else.  It's bad for business.  I'm not even sure it needs to be obvious that you are using a rarer vessel.

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Ridiculous suggestion, Jekyll.

Scaling up vessel size for higher physical strength, ok. But all other attributes shouldn't be visibly different on the toon because it's irrational.

Raising vessel size makes the hitbox bigger,too. Raising dexterity will make the vessel hit better, but the bigger hitbox might cancel out the dodge/parry bonus.

Guineceans are ridiculous enough without having giant ones bumbling around who are too weak to punch their way out of a paper ambush!


I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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Nope. Only way should be able to tell is when you are facing that player. You'll be able to tell based on their power relative to yours. Reacting to varies situations and adapting to them is a key factor in skill in these games.

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I really wouldn't want my stealth/thief-like characters being bigger than everyone else.  It's bad for business.  I'm not even sure it needs to be obvious that you are using a rarer vessel.

 

I think they should give sonme slight indication but making it bigger doesnt make it better. Just imagine that a Duelist can't use his tunnels anymore because his vessel is too good.


 

I AM ME!
I love you all.

 

 

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They could avoid this problem by simply not attaching power to vessels. Vessel rarity could be determined by whether it's a base archetype, or whether it's already advanced to a promotion class. A vessel could include a variety of quality rune stone customizations, or an already attached discipline. These things are additions you'd normally place on the vessel afterwards to complete it, but if it already has a bunch of attachments on it, than it may be less costly to furnish the vessel, or richer in resources you can harvest from it to customize other vessels.

 

The customization process is already going to be complex enough without giving vessels another layer of randomization, I say implement what's already planned in creative ways.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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With all the hype about vessel customization and rarity we will need a way to easily identify the more valuable equipped bodies.

-A possible solution: Scale up player body size by equipped vessel rarity

 

For example, a body from a Warlord's mausoleum in the Dregs would be head and shoulders taller (10-15% scaled up?) than a corpse from a mass grave in God's Reach

 

This^ could also reduce the Art-departments workload to an extra line of script on all equable items.

 

The opening statement indicates there is a "problem" somewhere.  " . . . we will NEED a way to EASILY IDENTIFY the more valuable equipped bodies".

 

Why is there a need for that?

 

This is not a challenge.  I'm asking for elaboration on why this is perceived as a problem that requires a correction.


“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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The opening statement indicates there is a "problem" somewhere.  " . . . we will NEED a way to EASILY IDENTIFY the more valuable equipped bodies".

 

Why is there a need for that?

 

This is not a challenge.  I'm asking for elaboration on why this is perceived as a problem that requires a correction.

 

Otherwise an encounter could feel unfair. If you didn't knew the challenge ahead of you the game just feels unfair.

 

Indicating the quality / strength of the opponent changes the decision to engage in combat from a guess game to a educated decision.


 

I AM ME!
I love you all.

 

 

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There's a certain level of uncertainty needed to make combat interesting. You don't want combats to have completely random outcomes but you also don't want to know exactly what's going to happen before you even engage.

 

I think it's important to know what archetype someone is. It's useful to know what they're equipped with. I think it's fine if we don't know every single thing about how their vessel was crafted from a simple visual inspection; if I've gone to the trouble of getting a vessel custom made for max possible run speed, I'd rather that that not be obvious from the thickness of my calves or whatever.

 

In Eve, you can easily see what hull someone is flying, and if you bother to look you can see what guns they're fit with. But you can't see what they have equipped in their mids or rigs until they turn it on. That means that while you can make some reasonable guesses about how a combat is likely to go, a clever and creative player can absolutely surprise you with a fit you weren't ready for. I think that's a pretty good model.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

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Otherwise an encounter could feel unfair. If you didn't knew the challenge ahead of you the game just feels unfair.

 

Indicating the quality / strength of the opponent changes the decision to engage in combat from a guess game to a educated decision.

Isn't a major selling point of a skill based game the ability to adapt and overcome to the situation? Like above some info is ok and will able to be gotten just by looking at your opponent but no we shouldn't be able to learn everything.

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Otherwise an encounter could feel unfair. If you didn't knew the challenge ahead of you the game just feels unfair.

 

Indicating the quality / strength of the opponent changes the decision to engage in combat from a guess game to a educated decision.

 

This is where I'll disagree with the philosophy:  I'd rather NOT have the game coddle me through PvP by pasting, for me, opponent classification signs.

 

I'd rather find out on my own.

 

In other words:  This is a form of themeparking intended to remove an element of the unknown.  I'd rather EVERYONE look the same, if you will, instead of the UI automatically highlighting everyone's threat level, if I understand the intent correctly.

 

Again, not a cut, just my viewpoint.

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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No need for that. If i see you on the street, are you bigger than other people ? And if not.. are you not from that qualitiy that i am ?

If i attack a person it must be a decission because i want his stuff or i want his place or i just want pvp. And if i attack him in his legendary vessel with my normal knight vessel. I am proud. I have done it.

Would you want to leave all people the battlefield because they see a bigger vessel coming in and they dont try to defend her castle.. they just ran away... 

A legendary Vessel will not make a big factor in my eyes.. but it is not needed that everyone see it.


As written before.. We have no Problem, so we dont need a solution ;) 


Bavarie Blue / Happy Tree Friends (HTF) and Pirates of Carribbean (POC)

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Isn't a major selling point of a skill based game the ability to adapt and overcome to the situation? Like above some info is ok and will able to be gotten just by looking at your opponent but no we shouldn't be able to learn everything.

This is where I'll disagree with the philosophy:  I'd rather NOT have the game coddle me through PvP by pasting, for me, opponent classification signs.

 

I'd rather find out on my own.

 

In other words:  This is a form of themeparking intended to remove an element of the unknown.  I'd rather EVERYONE look the same, if you will, instead of the UI automatically highlighting everyone's threat level, if I understand the intent correctly.

 

Again, not a cut, just my viewpoint.

You both got it majorly wrong. I just decribed what would normally happen. Most of my Sandbox PvP experiences come from Minecraft. We had nothing we modded / pluginned everything our self so I am the last one to say we should have some stupid UI element tell us anything (seriously how do you even come up with that?)

 

But there is a clear difference between challenge and punishing. I want Crowfall to be Crowfall and not a crazy punishing game where you have to fingure out stuff, not by skill or wits but just by dieing over and over again. We have Dark souls for that after all.

 

I am the last one to "coddle" you. Just because I am sick of grinding (and essentially playing 2 games in stead of just the main game i.e. level grind and end game) and getting everything spoonfed doesnt mean I like unfair / punishing games.

 

@Paang good luck "overcoming" a situation when you already miss 60% of your health because this guy looked exactly the same like the one you killed half an hour ago.

 

@Bramble making a good game (for me) i.e. giving the players tools to work with is not "theme parking".

 

tl;dr giving the player tools on their hands to work with isnt a bad thing. Telegraphing =/= highlighting.


 

I AM ME!
I love you all.

 

 

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^ that's part of the game not sure what else to say. You're not always going to be able to be 100% prepared all the time. This is also a team based game so hopefully your allies are there to back you up and you the same. Trust me in these game word gets around quick when someone who is better or has more power is around you won't be caught by surprise that often so again no we don't need anymore visual or UI based queues beyond looking at their gear and name recognition.

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I say let it all be a surprise.  If they have to implement a system to indicate a special vessel, then just indicate it in the description or give it a color glow. 

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@Iamme:

 

I'm more in line with what Jihan has suggested.  Read his post.

 

I'd rather NOT have the game highlight, in a dedicated fashion, the relative power/quality scales of players.  I consider that particular approach a form of "Farmville" themeparking that takes away from the uncertainty and risk of PvP.

 

And if you want "punishing" in a game . . . go try your hand at regrading/crafting higher end gear in Archeage.  Having gear downgraded or destroyed as the norm instead of successes is a remarkable punishment driven dynamic based on how it's currently calibrated.

 

PvP in Crowfall, from what I think I'm hearing, isn't going to be particularly "punishing".  It'll be risky, it'll be dangerous of course (good stuff), but, if I'm hearing things right, you won't have say level 60's running around ganking level 10's with impunity.  No levels, right?

 

What should be driving ME as a human are the imperatives surrounding why I'm there to begin with, not picking and choosing who I fight based on a "Farmville" Flag hanging over everyone's head.  Thus the deployment of strategy and tactics to overcome foes.  Attack, defense, strategic retreat, Bunny Rabbit sucker run to an ambush point, etc., all based on the strategic/tactical goals to be met in a CW.

 

So long as EVERYONE is at least IN the fight . . . Crowfall is going to be a PvP winner.  I can be perfectly happy and stoked I LOST to someone, so long as I was, as a human, actually in the fight (e.g. able to at least hit and damage my opponent, not a case of an invulnerable foe).   Because if I'm IN the fight . . . there is the opportunity to be the victor due to human skill, circumstance, numbers advantage, better leveraging of the environment, what have you.

  • I don't need the game to highlight for me who's got the better vessel or not.  Nor do I want "better" vessels having an ez-mode way of ranking people with "normal" vessels.  People should be focused on their goals for being on the map.
  • It just shouldn't matter and we disagree on the perception it's a value-add to game play. 
  • I see it as a detractor to the risk/uncertainty factor, and have no perception CF is going to be "punishment" based.
  • There's talk of "Espionage" in Crowfall.  From that angle, a small facet of "espionage", or the potential for misdirection perhaps (?), is built in if we don't theme-park vessel quality signs over everyone's head.  There's a bit of the unknown/mystery there right up until you engage. 

Again, read Jihan's post.  He articulated well how one could use common sense visual cues that might indicate something about an opponent.. 

 

Thanks for the posts, trading ideas is a good thing.  No one is "right" or "wrong" . . . we just disagree is all.

 

/bow

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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I am not saying I am for or against being able to visually perceive the quality of an opponent's vessels at a glance, but I find it humorous how many people railed against cosmetic armor options (rightfully so IMO), justifying their stance with the rationale that they need to be able to size-up their opponent based on what they are wearing, even more so when it was confirmed we would be able to mix and match armor types and they would each have different inherent resistances.

 

Then vessels were revealed and it was reiterated a thousand times in the forums how they are just an item, just another piece of gear.  Yet they arguably have a greater impact on archetype power than the totality of equipped gear, because they can dramatically increase skill caps, and in the examples given, well beyond what can be achieved with discipline runes alone.  Granted, it will be some time after launch before people have skills trained high enough to benefit from the higher ceiling of rarer vessels, but depending on the numerical value of passive bonuses picked up through the skill trees, vessels could change the risk of encounters beyond the scope of going up against a better geared opponent. 

 

In CF the pursuit of the most efficient exchange of currencies will require players to master the risk vs. reward paradigm.  So why are we ok with some elements of risk being obvious while others are hidden, why one and not the other.  So far some elements of risk are "in your face" choices made by player; like what campaign band to play in and what to import.  When choosing to engage in combat players will use all sorts of criteria, such as gear, numerical advantages, and guild affiliations (I assume no one is opposed to flying guild heraldry over character heads).  People in lower tier gear, in small numbers, from smaller guilds will often be preyed upon if it reaps a benefit.  Why are we ok with these assessment tools but not others? 

 

You could argue that these can't be hidden but that's not fact, they could allow us to hide armor, or hide guild heraldry, the only thing that the devs can't easily hide would be player numbers, and players will solve that problem using line of sight and stealth to hide their true numbers and create ambush opportunities.  So why vessels but not these other things.  How about an all or nothing approach? Either all elements of risk available to be weighed, or hide as many risk factors as possible to create as many oh-snap scenarios as possible where players could potentially go into conflict outclassed in multiple regards.  Having vessel identification as a factor could be part of the rule set.  In campaign worlds where vessels can be repaired infinitely and are never lost, I think being able to identify the raw quality (not the individual stats) of a vessel could be useful, but in the Dregs where vessels can be looted, you would want your advantage to be a closely guarded secret and not have a bull's eye painted on your character.   

 

Maybe it all comes down to how easily vessels of differing quality can be visually identified.  If the differences are subtle and not uniform across all archetypes you'd have to learn the subtleties of what to look for (minor size difference, or particle effect, or slight aura, or a slight change in skin tone or muscle definition), perhaps in keeping with the necromancy idea perhaps vessels could come in varying states of decay with very old/powerful vessels taking the appearance of a mummy or lich, and powerful crafted vessel could have a stitched up texture like Frankenstein's monster.

 

In the end it's probably a minor thing one way or the other, but I am not quick to dismiss it because I think it could have an interesting implementation, though unlikely because it seems the devs only like pitching vessels as necromancy but are uncommitted to the art assets needed to sell it. 

Edited by Gilgamer

Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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