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Unveiling the Skill Trees - Official discussion thread

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Not sure if I am understanding correctly, but from the way it sounds, lets say 5 years from now, everyone has every skill maxed out.  In that case, everyone basically has the same character build and it is left up to their vessel, runes, and other items.  Not sure I like that, I wish they would lock you into a path so you have a unique build since you could zig zag through the trees rather than just train everything and have a one size fits all character in the future..


 

Formerly known as - AmazingTacoBurito

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Not sure if I am understanding correctly, but from the way it sounds, lets say 5 years from now, everyone has every skill maxed out.  In that case, everyone basically has the same character build and it is left up to their vessel, runes, and other items.  Not sure I like that, I wish they would lock you into a path so you have a unique build since you could zig zag through the trees rather than just train everything and have a one size fits all character in the future..

 

I don't have a problem with everyone eventually having all skills maxed and essentially being copies of each other. First, you will still only play one archetype-promotion at a time. Also, it would be dependent on just how long it took. Three years? Wait too short. Five years? Better but probably not enough. Eight to ten years, maybe even more? Sounds ideal. Such a small percentage of people actually stick around one game that long anyway.

 

As for the ability bloat being mentioned up-thread. I'm not a fan of having more skills than necessary nor having too few. 8-10 abilities is too little, 40+ abilities is too much, and 15 at a minimum, maybe up to about 20-25 is ideal for me.

Edited by Sciocco

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I don't have a problem with everyone eventually having all skills maxed and essentially being copies of each other. First, you will still only play one archetype-promotion at a time. Also, it would be dependent on just how long it took. Three years? Wait too short. Five years? Better but probably not enough. Eight to ten years, maybe even more? Sounds ideal. Such a small percentage of people actually stick around one game that long anyway.

 

As for the ability bloat being mentioned up-thread. I'm not a fan of having more skills than necessary nor having too few. 8-10 abilities is too little, 40+ abilities is too much, and 15 at a minimum, maybe up to about 20-25 is ideal for me.

 

I guess if there is more inside the game (such as runes) that kind of make your character a unique build then that is ok, but then there is so much emphasis on items, it almost brings the grind back into the game to make sure you have ample amounts of equipment.  I would always want a "bank" (if there is one) full of vessels and runes so I can run the builds i like to run.


 

Formerly known as - AmazingTacoBurito

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I don't have a problem with everyone eventually having all skills maxed and essentially being copies of each other. First, you will still only play one archetype-promotion at a time. Also, it would be dependent on just how long it took. Three years? Wait too short. Five years? Better but probably not enough. Eight to ten years, maybe even more? Sounds ideal. Such a small percentage of people actually stick around one game that long anyway.

 

As for the ability bloat being mentioned up-thread. I'm not a fan of having more skills than necessary nor having too few. 8-10 abilities is too little, 40+ abilities is too much, and 15 at a minimum, maybe up to about 20-25 is ideal for me.

If you pause the video and look at the archetype tree and count the abilities I am guesstimating about 20ish abilities can actually be used (including the proficiency builds). Some of the skill tree (especially the initial ability) seem that they will consist of attribute skills (health, attack speed, etc.). The general skills, hard to guess, but I'll take a swing and say they will consist of resistances and the like.


"Through the travail of ages, midst the pomp and toils of war, have I fought and strove and perished, countless times among the stars.
As if through a glass and darkly, the age old strife I see, when I fought in many guises and many names, but always me."

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Your 3-person alternative doesn't work. This isnt a matter of 3 players vs 1 with VIP. This is a matter of 1 player with VIP or 3 accounts.

 

As to your supposed cost issue: if a person can pay for long-term VIP, they have enough money for 3 accounts instead. This means that a player's purchase decision is a matter of how long they want to play, and how much better VIP is relative to 3 accounts. Currently, 3 accounts is far more valuable (outside of a few fringe cases).

 

Quick aside: to a player intending to play for under 9 months VIP is arguably a better value.

 

Dude you had to go and say something, now everyone can see that yuuge gap in their business model.

 

I completely disagree with your Quick Aside, it's arguably better to buy six accounts at launch and start their training asap.

 

One account for combat, one account for crafting, and one for support. And three accounts to sell to someone that wants to start the game at a later date with skill parity and willing to pay a premium for a trained-up account. Remember the extra 3 accounts train while you play your main accounts.

 

That resell will pay for your initial investment and gives you extra cash to spend on fortress upgrades in the cash store, no VIP involved at all.

 

Seeing as we're gonna tell everything we know. 

Edited by corvax

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Dude you had to go and say something, now everyone can see that yuuge gap in their business model.

 

I completely disagree with your Quick Aside, it's arguably better to buy six accounts at launch and start their training asap.

 

One account for combat, one account for crafting, and one for support. And three accounts to sell to someone that wants to start the game at a later date with skill parity and willing to pay a premium for a trained-up account. Remember the extra 3 accounts train while you play your main accounts.

 

That resell will pay for your initial investment and gives you extra cash to spend on fortress upgrades in the cash store, no VIP involved at all.

 

Seeing as we're gonna tell everything we know. 

You bring up an interesting point... brb, gonna find my credit card.

Edited by TragicNumberOne

Might I interest you in a low-interest mortgage?

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Dude you had to go and say something, now everyone can see that yuuge gap in their business model.

 

I completely disagree with your Quick Aside, it's arguably better to buy six accounts at launch and start their training asap.

 

One account for combat, one account for crafting, and one for support. And three accounts to sell to someone that wants to start the game at a later date with skill parity and willing to pay a premium for a trained-up account. Remember the extra 3 accounts train while you play your main accounts.

 

That resell will pay for your initial investment and gives you extra cash to spend on fortress upgrades in the cash store, no VIP involved at all.

 

Seeing as we're gonna tell everything we know. 

 

You bring up a valid point. Such an approach will lead to what you describe, after all leveling X characters is only a click away right? I wonder, how much of a problem is it? EVE seems to embrace it. I wonder how ACE approached it.

 

I love to alt, but with the skills I can only get deep into one alt at a time, it might make more sense to grab another account for alting purposes.

Edited by tierless

I role play a wordsmith.

 

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Mr. Timothy Eisenzimmer,

 Please don't call nubs "chicks"!

That term is offensive to some females, even if you define it completely differently as a diminutive for newly hatched crows.

Chick is the correct, plain English word for a baby crow. Anyone who's going to take offense in this context which obviously had nothing whatsoever to do with the slang usage of chick for a woman is too sensitive to be allowed unsupervised human contact.

 

Please don't use the word "nub" as it is disrespectful to amputees.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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Chick is the correct, plain English word for a baby crow. Anyone who's going to take offense in this context which obviously had nothing whatsoever to do with the slang usage of chick for a woman is too sensitive to be allowed unsupervised human contact.

 

Please don't use the word "nub" as it is disrespectful to amputees.

 

Thank you

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You bring up an interesting point... brb, gonna find my credit card.

 

Tragic I respect you for pointing out this exploitable flaw. I just wished you had PM'ed the Devs instead of putting it on the forums.

 

JTodd and Tyrant may or may not care about it, but those who couldn't figure it out on their own, have now been enlightened.

 

I sincerely hope Pann wipes both our post.

 

 

Yours in Gaming,

 

Corvax

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Tragic I respect you for pointing out this exploitable flaw. I just wished you had PM'ed the Devs instead of putting it on the forums.

 

JTodd and Tyrant may or may not care about it, but those who couldn't figure it out on their own, have now been enlightened.

 

I sincerely hope Pann wipes both our post.

 

 

Yours in Gaming,

 

Corvax

Sadly, not even I am pretentious enough to specifically PM the developers on a problem like this... Nor am I stupid enough to think they won't already know about this problem seeing as other people found this problem and posted it on the forums first.

 

You are a tad late to the "keep it secret" parade.

Edited by TragicNumberOne

Might I interest you in a low-interest mortgage?

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I want an Anti-Decay Item room for my 3 character slots compensation!

Or perhaps a Special Relic Item that allows for training more abilities/skills at same time.

Well that's a good idea  maybe there could be a skill or  skill line set in place that really reduces decay on items or weapons or (fill in blank)  that would be a great Idea!

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Couple of questions regarding the skill video with Blair. He showed the first part of the Knight skill tree ending with one skill and said we can't training in it till we have done everything in that skill tree.

 

1) That would mean all knights will have the same basic skill levels?

 

2) Same goes with selecting a promotion, will everyone that selects the same promotion would end up with the same skill tree?

 

3) If the first two are correct that looks like we only customize through General skills. Example: I'm a knight with more Crit damage while others focus on armor proficiencies?

 

4) Also will there be a feature that we can select several skills on a row going from left to right so as one skill is unlocked it will automatically start training in our next skill. A "Skill Queing" system of sorts?

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Well that's a good idea maybe there could be a skill or skill line set in place that really reduces decay on items or weapons or (fill in blank) that would be a great Idea!

Because the whole idea of CF economy depends on item decay and having to replace broken equipment and weapons, this is actually a game breaking idea.

 

If you look at MMO history, what broke crafting in Ultima Online was (it's been a while since I played) the Age of Shadow expansion. With the expansion came a little piece of paper in game, that when combined with a weapon or armor, more or less permanently bound it to your account. This in essence broke crafting as need for items became less and less. I honestly quit shortly after, so I don't know if it was ever addressed or fixed.

 

Edit/addendum: I could be wrong Tyrant would know better. Time and age fuzz the memory.

 

Moral of the story: Some game systems should not be mucked with.

Edited by Brokienheart

"Through the travail of ages, midst the pomp and toils of war, have I fought and strove and perished, countless times among the stars.
As if through a glass and darkly, the age old strife I see, when I fought in many guises and many names, but always me."

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Keaggan,

  • You unlock the next skill in a tree at 50% in the videos, so there will be tremendous variation in the early game.
  • Sure, only a fool will abandon his chosen archetype and class training until it's complete, so later there'll be catch-up, but with disciplines, starting runes, and arcane knowledge skills, there won't be many cookie cutter knights until believable FOTM build strategies get posted much later in the game.
  • 4) ACE has promised a skill queue already. Maybe it will allow you to train skills that aren't unlocked yet when possible, maybe you will need to jump in and tweak your skill queue after they're unlocked. But you shouldn't lose training time if you monitor the account every few days.
Edited by chancellor

I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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I recall reading on the forums in the past that some of the initial points in each skill could be 'actively trained' via playing. Was that dropped, or did it never exist in the first place?

 

Given the preview of the skill trees, I'm a little concerned that some of the skills might be a bit overly specific. I know that one of the design goals is allowing players to create a character which is good in specific situations but, I think it may detract from the game if those situations are too specific. For example, a skill like 'inflict extra damage to elf characters who are wearing heavy armor when between the hours of noon to 3pm', just something is off-putting about it.

 

More generally speaking, I'm undecided on the skill train system being completely time based and passive. There are benefits to this type of system over a more common system, of increasing skills via actively playing, but I don't think it's all benefits with no downsides.

 

Potential downside in spoiler (hiding optional wall of text).

 

 

For example, assuming all parties involved are either all VIP or all non-VIP, new players cannot 'catch up to' or 'surpass' older players, in terms of skills, in the strictest sense of 'who would max out all skills first'. In that strictest sense, if player A starts playing 2 years before player B, then player A will always be two years ahead of player B, all the way up until player A maxes all his skills, at which point player B will begin 'catching up' and finish catching up two years later. Also, from what I understand, the system is being designed such that it will take longer than most people are going to be playing the game in order to max all skills (like 15+ years or something), which means players A and B will most likely quit playing the game before either of them max all skills.

 

The general response to the stated example is that it is too theoretical, and from a practical point of view, player B will catch up to player A, due to diminishing returns on skill training (i.e. takes longer to train higher skills and/or skill levels). However, even here, player B only has a chance to 'basically' catch up to player A. If both players focus on one archetype and one of the general skill trees, player A will still be better (numerically) at the chosen areas than player B. The only way player B can completely catch up to or surpass player A in a given skill or collection of skills, is if player A already maxed out said skills or if player A spreads his training out more than player B.

 

You could also argue that in a more common 'active train' system, the above situation still exists if you assume both players involved play the same amount and in such a way that their respective skill gain amounts are the same. This neglects that most active train systems have much smaller skill trees than the passive train systems. Indeed, many traditional systems allow you to acquire a certain maximum amount of 'points' which you can then trade for skills in the skill tree(s). This is done in such a way that not all skills can be maxed (e.g. only enough points to get 1/3 of all skills in tree), and you end up with character builds (in the sense of skills), which may or may not be a good thing.

 

It also seems like a passive skill train system might be missing an opportunity to give players a sense of reward for playing, in addition to 'sweet loot' and 'for fun'.

 

 

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Because the whole idea of CF economy depends on item decay and having to replace broken equipment and weapons, this is actually a game breaking idea.

 

If you look at MMO history, what broke crafting in Ultima Online was (it's been a while since I played) the Age of Shadow expansion. With the expansion came a little piece of paper in game, that when combined with a weapon or armor, more or less permanently bound it to your account. This in essence broke crafting as need for items became less and less. I honestly quit shortly after, so I don't know if it was ever addressed or fixed.

 

Edit/addendum: I could be wrong Tyrant would know better. Time and age fuzz the memory.

 

Moral of the story: Some game systems should not be mucked with.

 

There would be a line for each to train etc to lower the decay time never said wipe or eliminate it plus the risk reward is the time spent to level up that skill line.

 and as yet we don't know the true time to level each tier of any skill as a Crafter this could make your goods 50% more valuable to your guild or said buyers as a Pvp'r this would be a added bonus. don't forget could be a line for your accessories  as well.

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People buying 3 accounts aren't losing anything. They are exploiting the current business model in such a way as to gain an advantage that devs did not balance for. This is not even more expensive then VIP as you suggest. This means that the VIP system is effectively worthless aside from the previously mentioned fringe cases.

 

The way you dismissively say "they've bettered the system" is the very point I am arguing here. Systems should not be game-able (at least this one system as it is associated with the business-model).

 

VIP tickets are not worthless if combined with multiple accounts, especially if players are acquiring them in-game.

 

The decision by ACE to lock an account to 1 name, 1 guild and 1 universal skill is a clever monetization plan imo.

 

It means, if I understood correctly, that if someone wants to be competitive in different sectors simultaneously (crafting, exploration, combat), this person may need to purchase more than 1 account.

 

If this player wants to train the huge universal Armor trees for his Knight while leveling up DPS or stealth universal skills for his assassin, he may be better to purchase a second account. Same thing for a crafter who would like to specialize quickly in Tailoring, Necromancy and Rune creation.

 

If a player wants to be in 3 guilds simultaneously, in different campaigns, he may need to purchase new accounts. Those who want to participate in the political intrigue, spying and betrayal may also need to get new accounts to hide their name.

 

I wouldn't be so surprised, at this pace, that Crowfall gets a best selling award not long after launch.

Edited by courant101

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Now for the big question:

 

If we train skills during Pre-Alpha / Alpha / Beta, does this carry over come launch day...

Of course not!

And I hope there is no "headstart" at launch. VIP players will get priority in joining campaigns, though.


I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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