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FenrisDDevil

Are we really okay with no skill cap?

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How the skill system works right now:

 

- Anyone can skill up as many skills as they want, with the only limit being time;

- Using a specific vessels unlocks specific bonuses of the relative skills that have been trained;

- There's no CAP on the "active" passive skills that a player can have.

 

While I am okay with the first two points, I am not entirely sure about the third one.

 

A veteran player, or anyone that has started earlier, will always have an advantage over a "new" player.

Even if that advantage gets lower and lower, it remains there after YEARS.

 

I am also okay with the philosophy that players need something to skill up at all times, so that the progression is infinite.

But what about a skill cap that limites the amount of skills one can have?

 

Example: I am using a Knight vessel, and as soon as I equip the vessel (or before) I get to choose which trees I want to activate during that time, and which skills on each tree. The limit could be high as we want, even up to 2 years worth of passive training time.

 

So that, everyone in the end CAN have the same number of skills activated, while veterans will still have the advantage of being versatile.

Basically the same idea that is behind VIP tickets... more versatility for veterans BUT not more skills overall.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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This is already the case since your equipped vessel will only activate a limited subset of skills. All your training in Fire Sorcery does you no good in a Knight.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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Vessels limit what skills can be used and to what extent at any given time.  The only advantage of a veteran player over a player who has only a few months in will be flexibility to utilize more vessels or the ability to be more narrowly specialized within a particular skill or two.

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So they went with the EVE Online System Marky Dragon talked with them about.

Well lets see.

I am not a fan of smash the newbe's attitude gameplay.

And I heard of many new games by now that the interference of gear and leveling (grinding) in character stats is problematic, especially if you want to play together with a friend, who starts the game first time (is new to the game).

 

Strategy and skill should determine a match, not (passive) grinding over time, how much time I have spend in the game.

Edited by Urahara

After EverQuest Next is gone, its Star Citizen for me.

 

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It works fine in EVE, the "Veterans always have an advantage" is curtailed by two ways in EVE that I am sure they are considering here.

 

1. Certain Skills are only useful for certain ships (read vessels)

2. Exponential increase in time to train skill per level. The first 5% increase in attack may take 10 minutes, the last 5% may take months

 

You end up with two things:

1. Veterans are only marginally better than new players at a specific role (only if they decided to specialize in it)

2. Veterans are more versatile than newer players

 

New players can bridge this gap fairly easily by first specializing, then branching out because like Kambien & Jihan said before me, it doesn't matter if a veteran has lvl 4 fireball casting in a knights vessel.

Edited by Vox

Do not wish it is easier, wish you were better.

A hero need not speak. When he is gone, the world will speak for him.

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This is already the case since your equipped vessel will only activate a limited subset of skills. All your training in Fire Sorcery does you no good in a Knight.

Vessels limit what skills can be used and to what extent at any given time.  The only advantage of a veteran player over a player who has only a few months in will be flexibility to utilize more vessels or the ability to be more narrowly specialized within a particular skill or two.

 

Nope. There are tens of trees that are composed of generic passive bonuses.

 

And one Archetype's tree alone takes 1 year from level 0 to 100.

 

New players can bridge this gap fairly easily by first specializing, then branching out because like Kambien & Jihan said before me, it doesn't matter if a veteran has lvl 4 fireball casting in a knights vessel.

 

You're not telling me anything I didn't know already.

What you're missing though, is the amount of generic skills that a player has in the "Universal" trees.

 

Let's take ONLY the combat generic trees that might be useful to the Knight:

 

Weapon Basics

Skills that teach you the basics of weilding weapons.

 

Weapon Familiarity

Skills that increase your familiarity with weapons.

 

Weapon Competencey

Skills that increase your competency with weapons.

 

 

Not sure if the Knight will be able to unlock a bow.. in that case:

Ranged Weapon Styles

Skills that allow you to specialize with your ranged weapons.

 

 

Melee Weapon Styles

Skills that allow you to specialize your melee weapons.

 

Combat Principles

Skills that teach you the principles of combat.

 

Weapon Styles

Skills that allow you to specialize your weapons.

 

Armor Basics

Skills that teach you the basics of wearing armor.

 

Armor Familiarity

Skills that increase your familiarity with armor.

 

Armor Competency

Skills that increase your competency with armor.

 

These ALL give passive bonuses that are useful to ANY build. And to max each one it takes from 4 to 8 months as well.

Then there is the Knigh's tree, the 3 promotion trees, and all the Exploration trees that are also somewhat useful (stealth vision above all).

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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I always look at these decisions from a game concept standpoint, and I dont see why this skill system would be necessary this way, it doesnt improve the game or gaming experience anyhow, but gives much potential to critizise it.

Only meaning I can honestly see is in monetizing the game through selling VIP tickets.


After EverQuest Next is gone, its Star Citizen for me.

 

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I would prefer a hard cap on total number of skill levels any vessel can utilize; but it will be as the devs intend it to be, not what I think is best.

I also understand that I am at least as susceptible to being wrong as these experienced devs. At least they are candid and open to criticism.

I can either adapt or cut my losses.

 

I would also like to see them try to put the most realistic mechanics that will work well into CF and see if they're fun, but I understand that is a losing battle.

 

Also, I understand the game will fail if there isn't enough steady income.

And ACE understands that Pay to win (P2W) will also kill a PvP game.

Edited by chancellor

I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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Sure there are no Hard caps but there are in fact what we can call soft caps. Meaning if I only really care about a few archetypes that I will be playing the most there will come a time when I have gotten all the necessary skills I will need for those archetypes and anything beyond that may be marginal at best.

 

They talked about diminishing returns as well as shallow power curves. So sure veteran players will obviously have an advantage, like they do in every one of these games, that advantage won't be insurmountable.

Edited by pang

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So sure veteran players will obviously have an advantage, like they do in every one of these games, that advantage won't be insurmountable.

 

1. Skill advantage. We're not talking about other kind of advantages here.

2. The skill advantage is unreachable. Sure, not insurmountable since hopefully other factors will be more important.

 

The point remains, why in the world would we not use a skill cap and let veterans have the skill advantage forever.


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To my understanding a vessel will have limits for each skill based on a number of factors including the archetype/advanced class, quality of the vessel, etc.  For example (and these skill numbers are arbitrary and hypothetical) if say you have a generic Knight vessel then the skill cap for most of the general skills could be at 50 for weapons basics, 65 for combat basics, 75 for armor basics, and 25 for stealth skills.  These skills caps can be increased or decreased with skill based runes and disciplines.  This combined with the fact that skill training and skill effects are curved so that it takes longer with less effect the higher a skill goes means that a new player can focus on general skills to become an effective generalist within a relatively short time, but specializing will take time.   Essentially new players can be effective generalist but being a veteran allows you to be a specialist, with more time playing allowing for more specializations opening up.  The pacing of skills currently seems to be such that first tier skills in a tree seem to have biggest effects and the fastest to train.  It took less than 3 days to train the first skill in combat basics to 90.

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The vessel system is pretty brilliant for this reason. I caps the potential power of veteran players very very well. Vessels are only going to have so much potential power allotment regardless of how long you've been playing. 

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The point remains, why in the world would we not use a skill cap and let veterans have the skill advantage forever.

Because it doesn't matter. You're like the Diana Moon Glampers of the forums. Having a bit of an advantage is not the end of the world. There is no need to make everyone equal because we will be measured by our skill at playing the game, not our character stats.

 

Now, an example: The Carolina Panthers won Super Bowl 50. They were favored to win by 3-6 points and win by.... Wait. They didn't win? They were statistically superior and the odds were in their favor, but they lost? Strange. I guess that's why they play the game and don't just obsess over who has a statistical advantage.

Edited by ZaphodBeeblebrox

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The vessel system is pretty brilliant for this reason. I caps the potential power of veteran players very very well. Vessels are only going to have so much potential power allotment regardless of how long you've been playing.

 

Not really, vessels only cap max skill.. Not general passives like X% more crit chance

 

 

 

Also, vip isnt even as good as having 3 non vip accts... So this whole thread is behind the meta

 

What they need to do is remove combat from the general section and combine it with archetype trees... This solves a lot of problems i dont have the energy to type here.


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General skills may be universal but, they still only apply in specific situations. If you go down the plate armor tree and you're wearing leather on your ranger it doesn't benefit you at all. Also, in EvE you literally have no end to skill training. In Crowfall there are a finite amount of skills in a particular tree. You're also comparing apples to apples in a game where only a small number of people will choose the same progression path. Of course a person who spent more time training will be further along. The only way a game could remove that gap is by not having skills to train.

 

You're also balancing at the solo player level when you should be thinking a the group level. Not to mention the skill difference of players or the fact that one guy has a better keyboard than the other guy. The game is not designed to be fair on every level and its your job to make up for your own disadvantage.

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Not really, vessels only cap max skill.. Not general passives like X% more crit chance

Aren't you getting that X% more crit chance from your skills? Any cap of the skills would cap the benefits derived from those skills.

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I don't even know what you're worrying about fenris... ACE got this...

 

And look at the MMO market... there's no game out there with passive skill gains and no skill cap, that showed that new players are reluctant to join, because they can never catch up, despite the fact that the advantage is actually pretty small.

 

right guys? right?!?!

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Aren't you getting that X% more crit chance from your skills? Any cap of the skills would cap the benefits derived from those skills.

Hmm, was every option like that? If so you could use the general tree for those things and use the archetypemtrees for kore specialized options


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Hmm, was every option like that? If so you could use the general tree for those things and use the archetypemtrees for kore specialized options

I don't believe skills are the only source for things like crit, but I know there are crit hit and crit damage in some skill trees.  I believe the skill caps will only effect how much bonus you get from trained skills, and not the total cap which may be effected by vessel base stats, items, trophies, etc.

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I don't even know what you're worrying about fenris... ACE got this...

 

And look at the MMO market... there's no game out there with passive skill gains and no skill cap, that showed that new players are reluctant to join, because they can never catch up, despite the fact that the advantage is actually pretty small.

 

right guys? right?!?!

Depends, is said game still live and played actively by players? Did said game advertise mass appeal or a more niche approach.

 

Besides how in this system can one never catch up? There might be LOTs of skills but its not infinite. If only there was something called diminishing returns and shallow power curves....

 

Granted this type of system isn't for everyone and its not w/o its faults or cons but then again so does every other progression system has its pro/cons. Funny how that works that not everything is made to appease everyone.

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