Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
FenrisDDevil

Are we really okay with no skill cap?

Recommended Posts

Now, an example: The Carolina Panthers won Super Bowl 50. They were favored to win by 3-6 points and win by.... Wait. They didn't win? They were statistically superior and the odds were in their favor, but they lost? Strange. I guess that's why they play the game and don't just obsess over who has a statistical advantage.

 

That's not a "statistical advantage". We're talking about real skill points.

Your example is completely irrelevant to the argument of the thread.

 

The vessel system is pretty brilliant for this reason. I caps the potential power of veteran players very very well. Vessels are only going to have so much potential power allotment regardless of how long you've been playing. 

 

I fear this is irrelevant as well. Everybody has to use vessels.

Both the person that just started playing and the veteran. The latter, of course, has more chances of being in possession of the right ones.

 

You're also balancing at the solo player level when you should be thinking a the group level. Not to mention the skill difference of players or the fact that one guy has a better keyboard than the other guy. The game is not designed to be fair on every level and its your job to make up for your own disadvantage.

 

Alright this is getting ridicolous.

Let's just give everyone random stat/skill points, who cares, it's a game based on groups right?

 

Get out of here.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

y9tj8G5.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Depends, is said game still live and played actively by players? Did said game advertise mass appeal or a more niche approach.

 

I said there isn't such a game out there...

or are you trying to tell me that ACE is making the same mistake as another game out there when it comes to attracting new players?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I said there isn't such a game out there...

or are you trying to tell me that ACE is making the same mistake as another game out there when it comes to attracting new players?

They are making a niche game, did you somehow forget that? But plenty of new players will join they always do. If the overall game is good enough it won't have any issue there.

 

Besides I thought we had moved past the "I don't like this system therefor its bad, wrong, broken" mentality. Guess not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They are making a niche game, did you somehow forget that? But plenty of new players will join they always do. If the overall game is good enough it won't have any issue there.

 

Besides I thought we had moved past the "I don't like this system therefor its bad, wrong, broken" mentality. Guess not.

 

and I thought, that pointing out potential flaws has finally been accepted as valid criticism... guess not

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

and I thought, that pointing out potential flaws has finally been accepted as valid criticism... guess not

oh right because questioning ones criticism isn't accepted either I see. If can't take it then don't dish it out. Replying to threads with snark and sarcasm is also so productive right?

 

Moral of the story, Fenris made a good productive thread and posters replied in kind, productively. You come in with snark and pointless sarcastic pessimism and also get replied to in kind. Seems simple enough to me.

Edited by pang

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I fear this is irrelevant as well. Everybody has to use vessels.

Both the person that just started playing and the veteran. The latter, of course, has more chances of being in possession of the right ones.

 

The vessel bottleneck takes away the advantage that a player that's been playing for years would have over a newer player. I'm assuming it probably won't take much time to train enough skills to max out a vessel.

 

Sure a newer player won't have as many options but the whole reason I feel like they implemented vessels in the first place was to find a way to cleverly power cap players. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Zybak, on 11 Feb 2016 - 6:56 PM, said:

The vessel system is pretty brilliant for this reason. I caps the potential power of veteran players very very well. Vessels are only going to have so much potential power allotment regardless of how long you've been playing.

 

I fear this is irrelevant as well. Everybody has to use vessels.

Both the person that just started playing and the veteran. The latter, of course, has more chances of being in possession of the right ones

 

This is only irrelevant in outer rim campaigns, in the inner rim campaigns most people will only be taking in low quality vessels as they will have higher quality ones stolen, as such the bottle neck will appear in the game where the best rewards are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everything you put into your character is one facet that contributes to that character as a whole.

 

Your experience as a player.

 

The vessel you are using.

 

The skills you've trained.

 

The disciplines you're using.

 

Everything.  And unlike gear-based games, one of those facets will not tip the scales so far in your favor that others won't have a chance.  So, yeah, I'm completely okay with no skill cap.  Because even if there isn't one, there really is if you look at the overall picture.  It takes time to train skills.  Real world time.  They've said they've got 600 skills in right now.  That's a metric crapton of skills to train assuming you're not going to focus and are taking the shotgun approach to train them all.  By the time you've trained the current 600, they'll add in another 50...100...500 more skills.  Which will open up new avenues, new specs, new ways to work things to your advantage and, yes, require more time to train.  It's a neverending challenge.

 

Veterans will have the advantage of having certain skills which will aid them.  Veterans will have the advantage of knowing combat tactics, class weaknesses, counters, etc.  Noobs will be at a disadvantage until they learn the game and train certain skills.  That's the way things work.  The noobs won't be at such a disadvantage that a veteran with an uber sword of power will decimate them by blowing them a kiss.  But the veterans will have the advantage that they have earned over time.  As it should be.

Edited by Waikikamukau

http://www.twitch.tv/Waikikamukau Yes, it's Why-Kick-Uh-Moo-Cow / Twitter: @TheMukau

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Vessels effectively create skill caps by limiting the usable portion of a skill line.

 

Also there may be actual skill caps based on this quote from the recent interview on MMORPG.com:

 

 

 

All of the archetype skills can train to 200; however, most vessels can only use up to 100 as a maximum. With the use of disciplines you can push skills that you think are key above 100 on the vessel.

I realize that this only refers to archetype skills, but there may be similar caps for general skills.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think we have much to worry about here.  Personally, I think that shallow power curves, vessel system, and the huge array of skills to choose from will make this a non-issue for years while putting the focus on intelligent game play instead of raw power.  Regardless, ACE has said all along that the design is modular and that game balancing can and will be tweaked based on user response to campaign settings.  There is nothing to say that those campaign settings can't be widened to include caps that force you to choose what skills (and lvls) that you even have available within a campaign, regardless of the vessel you wear once you're in.  Sort of an intangible super-vessel... a Conduit from God to Crow... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm new and may have mis-read something elsewhere, but you can't train everything (given the time) on all archetypes can you?  Doesn't some skill tree choices prevent the use of training other skill trees?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm new and may have mis-read something elsewhere, but you can't train everything (given the time) on all archetypes can you?  Doesn't some skill tree choices prevent the use of training other skill trees?

 

You maybe be referring to the old promotions system where it was a locked choice but at this point it seems you can actually train everything. Thing is it will take several years at a minimum and I'm sure someone will come up with an estimated length of time at some point. I'm hoping for a decade minimum.


gCWxS8u.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as a skill cap is concerned:

 

1. There are not an infinite number of skills. 600 total. There's your skill cap right there.

 

2. That cap diminishes *significantly* when you concider that one particular specialization can only have so many skills associated with it, and if we assume diminishing returns are involved, at some point it becomes more efficient to begin training up another skill tree instead.

 

 

There also seems to be much ado about very little concerning passive training.

 

Let's look at how skill training works in an Exp based system. Johnny wants to train his shortswoard skill. He goes out and kills some monsters. This is a task which requires time spent logged into the game. Because one must be logged in to gain Exp, it is possible to catch up to Sam, who is a higher level than you, provided that Sam spends less time logged in, completing quests and killing monsters than you.

 

That last bit is the important part. In a PVP game, if you are catching up to Sam, it probably hardly matters that Sam is a higher level than you, because he isn't contributing as much as you are. If Sam *Does* contribute as much as you, whoopie, you'll never catch up to Sam unless he has hit a skill cap or experiences diminishing returns.

 

So, in crowfall, once again, Sam has had an account longer than you have. As a result, no matter how much effort you put into things, you will not catch up to Sam, but it hardly matters, because the end result is the same- Sam will either have more or less of an impact on the world than you based off of some ratio of time with an account vs. time spent actually contributing. Granted, to the Johnny, it feels slightly unfair, because he will never be as technically powerful of a character as Sam. Due to that lost sense of feedback, I *do* feel somewhat that this system causes a great deal of insulted for a very small increase in fairness / convinence for people without a lot of time on their hands.


19.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, thanks for clearing that up Sciocco... that does seem silly at a high level then.  That would mean that long term specialization is moot.  Guess I just don't understand the why behind it, yet.

Edited by Jackd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I never proposed to cap the number of skill one can train, but just the number that one can use at a time. And that cap could also be high.

 

Basically, 1 or 2 years maximum, and a "new" player should catch up with a veteran in terms of skill number, imho.


y9tj8G5.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I remember reading from ACE statements like

"Endgame from the beginning!"

and

"NO grinding!".

 

Is that still intact and point of interests at game design choices?

 

These were very important to me when I decided to engange with Crowfall, and are still of course.

 

I dont want any rewads for playing or stuff to collect or leveling, this is all maybe good for other types of games, but certainly not here.

I dont want all these.

I dont need all these kind of stuff.

I just want a game that is fun everytime i log in. thats all, i dont want to collect.

I wanna collect and share awesome memorys of playing a game with other people!

Thats all it is about.

Not the new reward to collect only this season.

A game doesnt get better if you hand out stupid rewards for playing it.

It makes it even worse.

 

I know and understand you need money for making/running an MMO, and I as well as others will give this to someone who loves games the same way as us.

Edited by Urahara

After EverQuest Next is gone, its Star Citizen for me.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think everyone is confusing time with power.  Time after an initial archtype is maxed, only means you can focus on other archtypes/crafting skills.  I look at someone who has played 3 years vs someone who has played 6 months as depth.  There really isn't a power advantage, just what I can do with that crow gives me more options.  There has to be an advantage to playing an account longer.  In Crowfalls model that is not power , it equates to account value via being able to do MORE with that account.

 

I think everyone is comparing crowfall to other games where time=power, time=depth in crowfall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Time after an initial archtype is maxed, only means you can focus on other archtypes/crafting skills.

 

There's no such thing as a "maxed archetype".

 

It takes 2 years to go from 0-100 in one Archetype+Promotion (x3 for VIPs), but we know already about skills that go from 100 to 200 (which take waaay longer). And then there's at least 1-2 more years to max the remaining Universal combat trees, and 1-2 years for the Exploration path.

 

Even if after 3 years one character could be considered "maxed out" (again, impossible), it would still make no sense not to have a cap, imho.

A cap at that point allows players to make different builds out of the skills that they've trained.

Otherwise, with the current skill system, in this hypothetical scenario everyone has the same character.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

y9tj8G5.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's not a "statistical advantage". We're talking about real skill points.

Your example is completely irrelevant to the argument of the thread.

 

First of all "skill points" are not real. A skill is the ability to do something. Players gain experience points which increase the level of skill, or degree of ability, they possess.

 

Second, all skills affect a stat or stats. Thus, having greater skill will grant a player a statistical advantage, be it critical hit chance, successfully creating an item, likelihood of taming a creature, et cetera.

 

Thirdly, your argument is baseless. There is s cap.

 

Let's look at a tree: Weapons styles. (As an aside, we don't know how much a benefit each skill grants. We only have the word of the developers that top-end players won't be all-powerful like most games.) The first skill increases min/max damage for all weapons, then there are crit bonuses and damage versus, again for all weapons. Then the tree splits, which is vital. The tree has several splits such that, if player A has filled out all weapons styles skills up through mastery and is using, for example, a one-hand sword, they get 14 bonuses. If player B has only focused on one-hand swords through mastery, they get the same 14 bonuses. All of the extra skills player A has don't stack. Player A can swap weapons, if she's carrying different weapons, and get different bonuses, but not more bonuses. The veteran player (like a VIP) is more versatile, not more powerful. They have access to more builds, but only get benefits from the one they are using.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...