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Helix

Passive skill gain is a cool and all, but...

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This, quite frankly, is how I was hoping they'd handle combos rather than force them behind initial skills.  Tera works like you described.  Certain skills activate faster if you use another skill first for certain classes.  The warrior and slayer classes are especially big on this as many skills activate slowly if used on their own so you always must lead in with another skill. 

 

I'd also like to see this method to activate skills in Crowfall, however with their budget and team size I'm not sure they could afford to spend a lot more time on reworking the powers & combo system. TERA had a budget of about 50 millions, only for the development, and a team of ~200 before launch.

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I would like to see some sort of active skill mix thrown into the frey as well.  even if it is more tied to crafting stuff for eks or gear.  This would give groups of people something to work towards.  I feel it is poor game design not to cater to the power gamers in some fashion.  i am sure, there are certain skills and ways to do this that does not interfere with the power of the game.  God forbid if we have an UNCLE BoB.

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Also the reason why I am in the favor of the out of combat button and still upset they patched out the leeping neckbreaker. To this day I know all the skills of the 129 League of Legends champions which are >516 abillities so about ~650 with passive and some have more.

 

I really like just knowing stuff about a game so more to have in the game more to know about the game.

 

I would agree with you but it's not entirely the same thing. If you play a champion in League you know the exact four abilities and passive you are given for that champion and that it will be the same every time.

 

When you're dealing with archetypes in Crowfall you're going to be mixing your abilities up with disciplines and promotions which means unless you feel like spending a great deal of time organizing even more skill bars and keybindings to your liking for a vessel that is probably just going to die anyway, I can't see the reason to have abilities that span over more than a single skill bar plus complementary basic attacks on the mouse.

 

Because the vessels can be so different, you will not be memorizing every nuance about them if they have ability bloat.


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The problem with a lot of abilities (whether they are all available or a load-out system) is that archetypes will meld together and lose distinctiveness and reliance on teammates. There are only so many different abilities to go around, only so many different types of buffs/debuffs/cc/etc. If all 13 archetypes (not to mention promotions) have 25 abilities that is 325 abilities, even if half of the abilities are some flavor of damage/healing that is 162 other abilities. You just can't create enough distinct abilities that make archetypes stand out from one another, especially if you want to introduce more archetypes later.

 

Sure, some will say look at how many abilities games like LoL or DOTA2 have, but so many of those abilities are overlapping with a slight variation. What makes each champ distinct is the limited combination of those abilities and their ultimates. What makes those games interesting is using your limited abilities together with your team. I certainly understand how 10 skills is too few and I think somewhere around 15 feels right, but just having more abilities does not create a deep game.

I'm fine with base archetypes having an effective 8-10 skills (as in, actively activated, non-combo) because promotions will surely add a couple, as will disciplines.  This leaves room for maybe another 6 to 8 in combo skills.  This feels quite appropriate IMO.

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It's been a long while since I've seen a riot around here, I'd say its about time.  *Pulls out pitchfork and cardboard sign*

 

I have nightmares of "not having enough active skills to choose from" at night.  I want more toys!


How Can Mounts Add to the Crowfall Experience?  Caravans, Hunting Boars, and more.

 

How Complex can Mining be in Crowfall?  Mining difficulty, fatigue, infrastructure.

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In the scheme of operating in an action game manner, few action keys are appropriate. They could greatly multiply the number of accessible actions by creating multiple functions per power and chord them into the same key.

 

Either way, I don't approve of them spreading actions all over the keyboard, it's not conducive to precise controls. Nor is placing actions across the number line either, but I don't expect developers to improve any of these fields.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Extremely disappoint if that's the case. When you take out variety and force static abilities on everyone, game gets boring real fast. Only reason why I played gw1 for so long was because of all the choices of abilities. Archetypes don't need to have 100s of abilities, 25-30 per archetype is fine, even if you have to make a choice and only have access to 10-12 of them at a time.

 

The current set of abilities on the archetypes right now feel way too tame and boring. Hopefully it changes in the future. They need to go fking wild.

Why do they need "to go fking wild." ?

 

Don't miss the forest for the trees. It's early yet in game development.

 

I played GW1 as well for some time. Great game, lots of skills, Elite Skills and normal skills. Woven into the content nicely, much of those you have to quest up.

 

And only 8 at a time were available to you in some combination. If you needed to reconfig that mix you had to head to a town to do it.

 

Why is there the perception a simple case of VOLUME is the answer?


“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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Why do they need "to go fking wild." ?

 

Don't miss the forest for the trees. It's early yet in game development.

 

I played GW1 as well for some time. Great game, lots of skills, Elite Skills and normal skills. Woven into the content nicely, much of those you have to quest up.

 

And only 8 at a time were available to you in some combination. If you needed to reconfig that mix you had to head to a town to do it.

 

Why is there the perception a simple case of VOLUME is the answer?

I would prefer depth over wild.

  • Ability to choose what we want our combo to be instead of the developers deciding for us.  This way when I approach someone, it is their creation.  The problem with combat right now,  is it is way to scripted.  When someone comes up to me to cast a skill, I know what their next cast will be, it makes for an exceptionally boring game.

Nothing wrong with having lots of skills but, I don't want to have a choice of 20 buttons when I am fighting someone.  The Secret World was great and had an awesome skill system.  It had a slow curve and playing longer gave you more options and not necessarily more power.  I would like to see some passive skills in those skill trees as well.  We could have a passive tree of 4 or 5 skills that we decide to load as well.  These passives should not take up the button on our screen.

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I'm just gonna be spamming 111111111111 anyway. Hey, it's worked well for me in previous games.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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ALCON,

 

   First of all like to say a lot of great ideas and opinions I've seen in thread so far;  it got me thinking.  That being said this is what I thought would be interesting thus far:

 

1.) Base archetype skills remain their current number

2.) Single Character Combos:

     a.) Link new promotion/disc abilities to current base abilities (Similiar to what was mentioned before)

     b.) Possibly add combo skills that can be trained to flavor combos

3.) Multi-Character Combos (Big Fan of these):

      a.) Simple combos that can be tied into archetype/disc/promotion abilities of different teammates.

      b.) Complex combos these would require not just an initial skill, but say openers and chains that are in the middle of other combos.  These would require great coordination and team work to pull off, but should also reward such effort.

4.) Vessel limitations:

     a.) Vessels could be utilized to help balance this.  For instance some vessels might not be able to do complex, simple, or single character combos.

     b.) Vessels could also be used to balance this by what abilities they are able to utilize.  Note all vessels would have the base archetype abilities.

5.) Rune stones could have the abilities or combo capabilities in/on them.

6.) Combos can have specific requirements other than just other abilities.  For instance need an ability, but also tied to a type of weapon damage or other triggers.  (Are archetypes limited to only one type of dmg?)

 

So that's all I have for now, it's more of a rough draft and I'm no expert on the game.  Let alone it's mechanics at this time =) 

 

Very Respectfully,

Vagantem

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I feel like more using more then 1-5 and the mouse is over kill when it comes to combat powers/skill. I hope there is a big pool to select from, but limit the number we can use to a large degree. Combat feeling fluid is more important then a ton of skills. Lots of skills seems to better fit tab target rather than twitchier combat.

 

Just my 2 cents, apologies if anyone else said the same, as I didn't read every response.

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I feel like more using more then 1-5 and the mouse is over kill when it comes to combat powers/skill. I hope there is a big pool to select from, but limit the number we can use to a large degree. Combat feeling fluid is more important then a ton of skills. Lots of skills seems to better fit tab target rather than twitchier combat.

 

Just my 2 cents, apologies if anyone else said the same, as I didn't read every response.

Yeah I think generally this is the consensus with only differences being in the amount of active skills or powers. 5 seems a bit low to me I think their current plan is for around 9-10?

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If you want to play a game with 5 abilities and the mouse you should just play DOTA.

I guess I just don't see all games with limited abilities to be a moba. Now as someone mentioned before, the ability to switch kits for a task makes alot of sense. I see a combatant thats squishy, then switch to DPS. If the combatant is armored, switch to a kit that debuffs etc. But limited skills doesn't by default make a game a moba, and as for the mouse, left for active swing and right for block/movement what ever doesn't mean point and click such as dota.

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The issue as I see it as, where would you personally define the line between too many abilities verse too few?

Unless the developers want every class to effectively fill every possible role in combat, then it does ultimately add a couple of additional problems while reversing the solving of existing problems.  Variety does allow people to have the choice to just play their favourite archetype exclusively regardless of the role they hold.  But I also think that it also dilutes the importance of and impact each different archetype brings to the table.  It also would make things more confusing for people in terms of what roles people fill in combat and who knows what that can create, a lot of social problems.

Now I think hand holding is not the solution, I also feel that shoehorning or forcing limited abilities and creating artificial leaning towards particular playstyles to be meta is a solution either

I don't honestly think I can contribute more to this in a way of suggesting a solution till I've played Crowfall for a while and have achieved a comprehensive understanding of the complete set of active skills.  I've played many MMOs over the years and I've seen the steady movement from 30+ situational skills which most players only use as they level and never at end game, or only against some boss fights or only in PvP and only in PvE.  To a system where skills had different effects depending on their use.  To a system that is restrictive in some way, or too simplified or too boring or what is currently the popular game design approach which is combos.

I just think a lot of people look back at how things used to be done with rose tinted glasses rather than just think on the question, 'does having heaps of active abilities beneficial in any possible way to you or the game? Do you honestly think you need them?"

If the answer is yes, then you need to come up with a better reason than "because limited skills are boring" and "I liked how things used to be."  Because there is a possibility that the way things used to be were bad because in the old days game designers were inexperienced and focused more on cool than on streamlining gameplay and focusing on fun.  Simplicity and "is it fun?" seems to be the current thinking of modern game designers, not to mention developers who are trying to minimise development expenditure try to avoid situations of spending resources and time developing content which would have only a limited use.

I know it sucks, but that is how things are now days.  Has less to do with "games are all like MOBAs now" and more along the lines of trying to minimise time spent on introducing mechanics to the game which have no beneficial impact to overall gameplay.

Also you need to consider the reason MOBAs have limited fixed skill sets for the different character is because they are MOBAs and they have dozens of different characters who all have very different skill sets.  It's already a hellish expensive process to create every single one as it is.  Especially in the case of League of Legends which has a very large variety and complexity of characters comparative to other games in it's genre.  I honestly think comparing any MMORPG or MMOFPS or any other type of only multiplayer game which isn't a MOBA genre game to a MOBA game is very narrow thinking.  It just comes off as whining honestly, no offence.

If you personally feel that the active skills available to a class in a game which you can pick and choose to use is limiting to variety and potential of gameplay entirely for the entire game across all classes, then you have a legitimate argument.  If you play a game and don't feel that way afterwards honestly, then it just comes off as "We want more stuff" to developers who are trying to say "We got a set budget we have already set in motion."  It has to be critically important for them to switch focus, least from my experience dealing directly with game developers.


My hubris is the size of a 2 by 4 nailed to the side of a YF-12 jet barrel rolling into a volcano piloted by a Tyrannosaurus Rex.

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Here's the problem right here. You'll have 14 abilities, you'll always have those 14 abilities. In gw2, I can swap utilities out, change my weapons and it effectually changes how I play my character. Staff elementalists aren't played the same as Dagger / Warhorn elementalists. Both builds have distinct "personalities". I have a lot of choice, that's a large portion of what makes these games fun for people, building your character out and throwing him in to the ring. Specializations might change this, but from what I've read, they'll simply copypasta over your current abilities and you won't be able to mix-n-match like in other games.

 

I want to have option to mix-n-match my active abilities from the base archetype, specialization and multiple disciplines, not simply have them "replaced" for the sake of simplicity.

I would assume any specializations or disciplines would add a few abilities to the ability pool. i doubt they'd remove the powers of your archetype because you specialized in something. I feel like that would be odd for them to take abilities away. Whats wrong with 14 abilities though? In Rift for example I used to have like 40 active abilities that I could use, but only ever used about 15 of them.1 or 2 more i would use in very situation instances. Honestly I felt like the mass of abilites was just there to make up for not being able to make a solid core of 10-20 abilities. Can I find buttons to map 20-30 buttons on my mouse and keyboard? sure, but it seemed pointless and a bit more lazy than just making a good core of abilities. 

 

Also, MOBAs skills arent bad or anything. being an MMO you want more skills than those 4-8 total but you dont need tons more. it helps the heroes stay balanced and not have too many completely useless "why would i ever cast this" kind of abilities. Im not sure why in your initial post you said you dont care if the archetypes are balanced or anything..

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Better question, can we expect to see passive skills / traits change the functionality of active abilities? For instance perhaps a skill or trait that lets warriors pull more players with his hook, or a trait that let's the confessor summon more tornadoes, or shoot more fire balls? If passive skills / traits just make you more proficient / increase you damage co-efficiency; that's VERY boring.

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Here's the problem right here. You'll have 14 abilities, you'll always have those 14 abilities. In gw2, I can swap utilities out, change my weapons and it effectually changes how I play my character. Staff elementalists aren't played the same as Dagger / Warhorn elementalists. Both builds have distinct "personalities". I have a lot of choice, that's a large portion of what makes these games fun for people, building your character out and throwing him in to the ring. Specializations might change this, but from what I've read, they'll simply copypasta over your current abilities and you won't be able to mix-n-match like in other games.

 

I want to have option to mix-n-match my active abilities from the base archetype, specialization and multiple disciplines, not simply have them "replaced" for the sake of simplicity.

I did like the ability in GW2 where skill inventory / selection altered based on what type of weapon was equipped.

 

It did allow me to "compartmentalize" game-play profile / options available to serve tactical needs. I suppose is somewhat like Courant101's point about compartmentalizing X number of skills from one huge pool, to sets of four.


“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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I really think there should be a fairly wide variety of skills, but a limited amount of slots in your loadout.  In eve for example, you can train infinitely, but you can only use a small set of those skills based on the ship you are using.  This allows for a tremendous amount of player agency and choice regarding your character, while also limiting long time players from roflstomping newer players (i'm looking at you darkfall).  The videos I've seen so far look like combat is fluid and fun, but the problem is everyone who is a certain class has the exact same abilities, and is very predictable.  I played shadowbane from beta all the way till it closed down, and a large part of what kept me playing is the extreme variety you can have in a character build.  I loved experimenting with new characters and new combinations that nobody has ever thought of and putting them to use in an open pvp world.  

 

If they don't allow you to greatly customize your character through active ability choice, NOT just promotion class and discipline choice, the combat will become very boring very fast.  There will be a set way to deal with every single class every single encounter.  This not only takes away from player choice and unique combat encounters, but also reduces tactical choices in large battles.  I remember in shadowbane when there was a huge zerg guild of korean players taking over the server, and we had to develop new tactics to fight such massive amounts of people.  There were many ideas and we ended up using many of them to great effect.  We built rangers for speed and high defense to lure away the undisciplined masses of people and pick them apart, we made groups of high defense warlocks to go into them and aoe, and we made groups of high soak damage sentinels to bomb the poorly made socks out of blobs.  

 

Without the flexibility in builds offered by a robust active ability roster, problem solving tactical obstacles becomes extremely stifled, and will likely not exist at all.  The characters as they are seem like moba characters, with predictable ability rotations and a very small amount of customization in each.  I sincerely hope there will be a LOT more customization with regards to active ability selection and meaningful choices with character builds, otherwise I think this game will not stand the test of time.

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