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Helix

Passive skill gain is a cool and all, but...

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Pretty sure this is why Chess has never caught on.

 

Yes indeed --------------------------^

 

APE's corollary there is actually quite valid, that being even with a "limited" set of abilities and move types, the tactics and strats number VASTLY more so.

 

It's not a given simply adding more to increase volume = more interesting.  That could as much be a gateway to complexity driven problems.

 

It's not a given having something less in volume = boring.

 

I would argue it's firstly how that's all structured, in either method, and whether it works together properly.  In GW 1 for instance, which I'm sure some of you have experience with, you only had 8 abilities available on your hot-bar at any one time.

 

Eight.  That's it.

 

Your POOL of avaiable abilities was significantly greater than that.  So, when you were at a town you picked your abilities (loadout profile for your class - which varied your spec/ability significantly - meaning flexible and interesting as a dynamic) and headed out.

 

You had to know how that combination of skills worked when solo, and more importantly how that mix of skills might interact / mesh with skills of other players in your group.  Sometimes that drove who picked what skills as the team was forming.

 

There was consequence to profiling wrong:  In a worst case you had to go back to a town to enable ability respec, and loadout a different mix of 8 skills.

 

This was a very different system than I had ever seen before.  At first it seems restrictive.  Then I actually started playing the game, with others and I came to appreciate how a "less is more" might actually work well.

 

I'm not really arguing with folks like Helix who really just want game-play to be fun and engaging.  It's more a case of my simply saying "blind crying for more VOLUME isn't enough".  Because, all by itself, VOLUME could be a gateway to problems as much as a potential gateway to "good".

Edited by Bramble

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I'm gonna be honest I thought the CU system of designing your own skills looks super cool. Obviously it's too late for ACE to adapt something like that but...I think at this point the only way we get more abilities is through more promotions and more disciplines

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Yes indeed --------------------------^

 

APE's corollary there is actually quite valid, that being even with a "limited" set of abilities and move types, the tactics and strats number VASTLY more so.

 

It's not a given simply adding more to increase volume = more interesting.  That could as much be a gateway to complexity driven problems.

 

It's not a given having something less in volume = boring.

 

I would argue it's firstly how that's all structured, in either method, and whether it works together properly.  In GW 1 for instance, which I'm sure some of you have experience with, you only had 8 abilities available on your hot-bar at any one time.

 

Eight.  That's it.

 

Your POOL of avaiable abilities was significantly greater than that.  So, when you were at a town you picked your abilities (loadout profile for your class - which varied your spec/ability significantly - meaning flexible and interesting as a dynamic) and headed out.

 

You had to know how that combination of skills worked when solo, and more importantly how that mix of skills might interact / mesh with skills of other players in your group.  Sometimes that drove who picked what skills as the team was forming.

 

There was consequence to profiling wrong:  In a worst case you had to go back to a town to enable ability respec, and loadout a different mix of 8 skills.

 

This was a very different system than I had ever seen before.  At first it seems restrictive.  Then I actually started playing the game, with others and I came to appreciate how a "less is more" might actually work well.

 

I'm not really arguing with folks like Helix who really just want game-play to be fun and engaging.  It's more a case of my simply saying "blind crying for more VOLUME isn't enough".  Because, all by itself, VOLUME could be a gateway to problems as much as a potential gateway to "good".

 

 

 

 

That is exactly what I was arguing for.  Not a vast hotbar, just a fair amount of available abilities to choose from and slot in.  I played gw1 and I loved the many different builds you could do even with only eight slots.  What I understand the system to be is, depending on disciplines and promotions you get just those abilities and that is your hotbar.  No choice of slotting in/out abilities to create your own loadout, or a giant hotbar with tons of abilities.

 

That is exactly what I was arguing for.  Not a vast hotbar, just a fair amount of available abilities to choose from and slot in.  I played gw1 and I loved the many different builds you could do even with only eight slots.  What I understand the system to be is, depending on disciplines and promotions you get just those abilities and that is your hotbar.  No choice of slotting in/out abilities to create your own loadout. 

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Pretty sure this is why Chess has never caught on.

 

Chess is quite fun for the person moving the pieces, not so much for the pieces themselves, and this is what my post was speaking to.

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Pretty sure this is why Chess has never caught on.

 

maybe you are right about the tactical aspect in large battles, but from what I've seen so far I don't think that will be the case.  Either way the small group skirmishes will get pretty old pretty quickly if there isn't ALOT more variety than is currently in the game.

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That is exactly what I was arguing for.  Not a vast hotbar, just a fair amount of available abilities to choose from and slot in.  I played gw1 and I loved the many different builds you could do even with only eight slots.  What I understand the system to be is, depending on disciplines and promotions you get just those abilities and that is your hotbar.  No choice of slotting in/out abilities to create your own loadout, or a giant hotbar with tons of abilities.

 

Most ATs have 4 slots open out of 10. Along with C and L/R mouse abilities. 40% seems like a "fair amount." Some ATs have two hotbars doubling their base abilities to 12 along with the 4 open.

 

You can say "just those abilities" and maybe you'd prefer all of them to be open or a few more, but that simply isn't what they are making.

 

Few games go the fully open route for various reasons. MOBAs are hugely popular and have even less to work with, while GW2 is somewhat similar to CF's planned system. Typical MMORPGs might offer a ton of abilities on screen or not, but usually come down to a core set with some fluff that are useful in any given moment. Lot of "fun" variety, but a lot of potential cost/waste as well.

 

Much easier to make a core set and build a lot of options to slot in that a variety can use.

 

The Discipline system is supposed to be huge. Hundreds I believe. If a good chunk of them can be used across ATs, this is very cost efficient along with providing a substantial amount of variety per AT.

 

Not to mention we can play all ATs at any given time with the Vessel system. Toss is Advantages/Disadvantages and however they will impact a character's performance and the 2-3 Promotions that each AT will have that can potentially change things as well. Gear is another layer.

 

Once all of these are together, we should have some decent build variety. Maybe not 100% controlled on our end, but enough that everyone isn't running around 90% the same as in a lot of games.

 

If Champ A and Champ B are identical or even close, either they worked to be the same or some FOTM build is crazy OP. It shouldn't happen as the norm.

 

The options are there, up to us to embrace them or limit ourselves due to our expectations.

 

Another game similar to GW1 was FURY that lasted a short while. They upped it to 24 open slots and hundreds of abilities. Was a lot of fun, but again, just a different game/system.

 

Link to Fury info if anyone interested: http://fury.wikia.com/wiki/Abilities

 

Chess is quite fun for the person moving the pieces, not so much for the pieces themselves, and this is what my post was speaking to.

 

maybe you are right about the tactical aspect in large battles, but from what I've seen so far I don't think that will be the case.  Either way the small group skirmishes will get pretty old pretty quickly if there isn't ALOT more variety than is currently in the game.

 

Knowing what an enemy can do and overcoming it with what you have available can be a lot of fun/challenge. Why very straight forward designs can be so entertaining. While more options and moving parts can increase the possibilities, they can turn things into less strategy and more reactionary chaos. Less planning possible, less team strategy beyond kill before being killed.

 

It can differ on the individual vs team side of things, but this is a team game. Taking all the possibilities of the individual and working with others is what it's about. 

 

If you get bored from the variety/options provided, that's on you.

 

As is, combat is subjectively fun with everyone exactly the same and none of the added build options.

 

Even in games that offer a lot of options, it has been my experience that FOTM and powerful builds find their way to the top, be it long or short term. All the "we all want to be different" goes out the window. Even in CFs system with TONs of gear options, I doubt we'll see the vast majority used ever or frequently.

 

My questions are how many slots should be open and how many abilities should be available per AT? 15, 25, 50?

 

Would you rather have fewer ATs with more variety or more ATs with less?

Edited by APE

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My questions are how many slots should be open and how many abilities should be available per AT? 15, 25, 50?

 

Would you rather have fewer ATs with more variety or more ATs with less?

 

I'd rather fewer ATs with more variety and game play options. As it stands right now, I feel like I'm playing overwatch on a bigger map. Maybe promotions and disciplines (which I strongly doubt will be in the hundreds) will change this. I'm not particular excited about the "temporary" nature of disciplines tho.

 

Game play and character customization seems to be extremely shallow.

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I'd rather fewer ATs with more variety and game play options. As it stands right now, I feel like I'm playing overwatch on a bigger map. Maybe promotions and disciplines (which I strongly doubt will be in the hundreds) will change this. I'm not particular excited about the "temporary" nature of disciplines tho.

 

Game play and character customization seems to be extremely shallow.

Not sure if seen this video or not. https://youtu.be/S3VODcGX3TI

 

While no idea on the actual number, that list in the background is just the start. So "hundreds" could be entirely possible.

Edited by pang

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I'd rather fewer ATs with more variety and game play options. As it stands right now, I feel like I'm playing overwatch on a bigger map. Maybe promotions and disciplines (which I strongly doubt will be in the hundreds) will change this. I'm not particular excited about the "temporary" nature of disciplines tho.

 

Game play and character customization seems to be extremely shallow.

 

Understandable. While I enjoy more complexity per character, I also like variety and am glad ACE is going this way.

 

Overwatch has sold over 20 million copies and MOBAs are immensely popular as well. If ACE can take some of that appeal and add a decent amount of customization to it, be it temporary or not, I believe it will be enjoyable once it is all online. 

 

They've shown a rough draft of a large list of Disciplines and their attributes, can only guess it will grow over time. Along with the other systems to build a character, I find it far from shallow. Individually, sure passive AT system isn't very exciting, but it isn't "the character," but one layer of it.

 

13 classes x 4 open slots (Disciplines) x Adv/Disadv x Promo x Gear x Universal Training x AT Training = Quite a lot to work with. Maybe most of it can be lost, but this gives us something to work towards and fight to hold on to. Instead of play one to max, repeat until it becomes too more of a bore.

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13 classes x 4 open slots (Disciplines) x Adv/Disadv x Promo x Gear x Universal Training x AT Training = Quite a lot to work with. Maybe most of it can be lost, but this gives us something to work towards and fight to hold on to. Instead of play one to max, repeat until it becomes too more of a bore.

 

tbh im not such a huge fan of some ultra diverse character customization. There is always some combo or some skills which devs overlooked and completely breaks the game for everyone especially in a ruleset with player looting and griefing where these things get abused a lot.

Edited by drunk

 

Crowfall Wiki

 

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Understandable. While I enjoy more complexity per character, I also like variety and am glad ACE is going this way.

 

Overwatch has sold over 20 million copies and MOBAs are immensely popular as well. If ACE can take some of that appeal and add a decent amount of customization to it, be it temporary or not, I believe it will be enjoyable once it is all online. 

 

They've shown a rough draft of a large list of Disciplines and their attributes, can only guess it will grow over time. Along with the other systems to build a character, I find it far from shallow. Individually, sure passive AT system isn't very exciting, but it isn't "the character," but one layer of it.

 

13 classes x 4 open slots (Disciplines) x Adv/Disadv x Promo x Gear x Universal Training x AT Training = Quite a lot to work with. Maybe most of it can be lost, but this gives us something to work towards and fight to hold on to. Instead of play one to max, repeat until it becomes too more of a bore.

 

The discipline system looks pretty much lifted straight from shadowbane, and that isn't a bad thing.  I recognized almost all of them.  If the disciplines in this game play more of a role than they did in shadowbane, I think that would be a good enough compromise and satisfy the need to have a little unpredictability in each encounter.  I would still greatly prefer being able to train a few active abilities in the skill tree.  Maybe have your 4 or 5 base abilities then the option to slot in disciplines or have like 8 or so abilities you can choose to train in the skill tree.  Even after training those abilities you are forced to choose between discipline skills, skills you trained in your tree, abilities you got for your promotion class, and your base abilities.

 

The problem with NOT having enough customization alludes to what you said about FOTM builds.  People will simply play the most powerful archetype at the time.  Developers end up playing balance whack a mole instead of players devising new ways to beat flavor of the month builds with their own preferred archetype.  Having a decent amount of customization options leads to an organic balance that players reach naturally, as happened in shadowbane and continues to happen in eve online.  Developers of course have to make small tweaks here and there, but you don't see people massively choosing one archetype over all others.  

 

Using overwatch as an example, First it was Mcree dominance, everyone wanted him and played nothing else.  Then widowmaker, Then those guys got nerfed so they played something else.  On and on and on.  There are so many balance changes in overwatch it's ridiculous.  This problem will be compounded when people can actually lose loot from encounters.  

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The discipline system looks pretty much lifted straight from shadowbane, and that isn't a bad thing.  I recognized almost all of them.  If the disciplines in this game play more of a role than they did in shadowbane, I think that would be a good enough compromise and satisfy the need to have a little unpredictability in each encounter.  I would still greatly prefer being able to train a few active abilities in the skill tree.  Maybe have your 4 or 5 base abilities then the option to slot in disciplines or have like 8 or so abilities you can choose to train in the skill tree.  Even after training those abilities you are forced to choose between discipline skills, skills you trained in your tree, abilities you got for your promotion class, and your base abilities.

 

The problem with NOT having enough customization alludes to what you said about FOTM builds.  People will simply play the most powerful archetype at the time.  Developers end up playing balance whack a mole instead of players devising new ways to beat flavor of the month builds with their own preferred archetype.  Having a decent amount of customization options leads to an organic balance that players reach naturally, as happened in shadowbane and continues to happen in eve online.  Developers of course have to make small tweaks here and there, but you don't see people massively choosing one archetype over all others.  

 

Using overwatch as an example, First it was Mcree dominance, everyone wanted him and played nothing else.  Then widowmaker, Then those guys got nerfed so they played something else.  On and on and on.  There are so many balance changes in overwatch it's ridiculous.  This problem will be compounded when people can actually lose loot from encounters.  

 

My assumption is each AT is supposed to have a basic function/role and the abilities are designed to provide this in the "best" package. To open that up would likely result in a lot of OP or terrible builds requiring more and more balancing on a per AT level, addressing individual abilities.

 

If Disciplines are mostly universal, they can more easily tweak them or remove/add those that disrupt game play too much instead of having to make multiple passes at each AT as time goes on.

 

Not to mention the time/cost to do animations and what not on the base set vs disciplines that will likely be reused assets.

 

It's true that we'll see a lot of FOTM, OP, terrible builds, but there is no way around that. Every MMO I've played has been this way. However, as time goes on and people gain access to more options, this hopefully becomes less obvious. We won't be able to log in on day one and pre-select everything from a pool. Joe Smoe might want to be FOTM, but he'll have to acquire it through some effort. Hence working towards Promos, crafting recipes for Discipline Runes, Gear, Vessel types, and so on.

 

Promo classes are supposed to be unlocked after X amount of investment into the AT skill lines. They've said each might have additional abilities and at least from some of the examples shown, they could mix up the base "class" enough that it is actually a new AT to some degree. So the passive AT skill system will provide variety one way or another, which will be permanent.

 

They have a LONG way to go and will have a lot of work to do up until "launch" and beyond. At this point, my take is we need to get our hands on a lot more systems to really understand. Even with similarities to other games, CF is still a new package with its own ups and downs.

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Too boring when your successful actions (and failures) do not improve your skills. Skills must depend on the activity of the player, and not from the date of account creation, IMHO...

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Too boring when your successful actions (and failures) do not improve your skills. Skills must depend on the activity of the player, and not from the date of account creation, IMHO...

You need to experience EVE Online to understand how passive skill learning works well in a PvP MMO.


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You need to experience EVE Online to understand how passive skill learning works well in a PvP MMO.

 

I have experience of Eve Online. It is a good system .. for EVE Online. Use-based progress is not suitable there.

But i have experience of UO ,DF, MO   too..

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I have experience of Eve Online. It is a good system .. for EVE Online. Use-based progress is not suitable there.

But i have experience of UO ,DF, MO   too..

 

all three games you named heavily relied on scripting and improving your skill AFK over night...


 

Crowfall Wiki

 

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all three games you named heavily relied on scripting and improving your skill AFK over night...

 

As well as hereBut here -you do not need a script or resources.

When the level of skill does not depend on the player's actions but only  creation date of account -  is a good?

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maybe you are right about the tactical aspect in large battles, but from what I've seen so far I don't think that will be the case.  Either way the small group skirmishes will get pretty old pretty quickly if there isn't ALOT more variety than is currently in the game.

Skirmishes get dull when you have no real goal. It's like downloading and playing a slot machine on your computer with nothing on the line.

 

Once the skirmishes mean something, and we are battling over POI's, or to protect/steal a caravan of resources, the goal will become the focus and make it far more interesting.

 

It's like any game. Take LoL for example.  You can start a custom game and run around against a single bot, using your abilities and powers ad nauseum, and it grows tired very quickly.  Add in real players in a real fight, and suddenly HOW you execute your limited powers becomes so much more meaningful. Most good players only play 1 or 2 champs in each of 5 role categories, and don't find trying to master those limited choices to get "pretty old" as you put it.

 

I'm not arguing against improvements, but I do think how we feel about combat now is tainted by the lack of goals/purpose.

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