Econ 4024 - Official discussion thread

[Pann 8,689]

ACE co-founder Gordon Walton was among the sources for this article on virtual economies 

 

FULL STORY

[Angelmar 1,889]

This in no way reflects on Gordon's contribution, but that article seemed a very shallow treatment of what could have been a great piece with a fun title.

 

However, I might be biased as I've lived through EVE's economy and that of other MMOs.

Edited February 16, 2016 by angelmar

[Caenth 3,893]

That graph makes total sense to me. PvP is one of the results of the game systems in the top-left corner.

[dreaden 621]

Alot of official clickbait today, I'm suspicious.

[McTan 3,104]

That graph makes total sense to me. PvP is one of the results of the game systems in the top-left corner.

 

Nicely put.  The key to data is interpretation.  Full stop.  

 

Edit (can't help myself): "Amazing, but true.  All these players who are interested in Crowfall are more interested in things like world-building, crafting, and exploration than...PvP. "  Yikes. Not if my premise was that I am interested in all of those things, as long as there is also open-world PvP. If I wanted only combat, I'd play a different game and would not be taking the survey.

Edited February 16, 2016 by mctan

[PaleOne 1,391]

I'm here for the PVP...

 

But the PVP should have meaning based on a real reason to fight, with real benefits to fighting and real loss if you lose.

[APE 3,597]

Maybe the next article will point out that these magical "balanced" economic designs aren't feasible once 3rd party gold/item sellers show up, bots, cash shops, "P2W" features, RMT, etc.

 

Sounds all good until reality kicks in.

 

Regardless of what EVE is or has, it is a unique design and has to be looked at for the whole product, not cherry picked features when comparing to any other product.

Edited February 17, 2016 by APE

[BradicusMagnus 255]

Interesting article.  I agree that competitive interests with limited resources creates conflict.  CF will be a great environment for a broad range of player types, and most of us will be required to PvP in order to accomplish our other interests.  String your bows and sharpen your swords... we're heading out to gather ore.

[vucar 520]

Yeah... because that's not the most biased graph i've ever laid eyes on... 

 

but it's up there. 

[Jah 8,372]

Gordon Walton, from the team developing Crowfall, recently showed me some fantastic data they'd collected from a series of surveys.  Central to this data were subtle questions to help the team understand what drives their players.  Crowfall is a very overtly PvP game, and the answer should be obvious.  Those who are excited about Crowfall must be big fans of PvP.  That makes total sense, except that it turns out not to actually be true.  In this survey, players were plotted on a series of graphs based on their answers to the questions asked.  Distinct groups of players emerged from the data, allowing the developers to get an idea of what players wanted from Crowfall.  It turns out these players were all there for everything except PvP.

Amazing, but true.  All these players who are interested in Crowfall are more interested in things like world-building, crafting, and exploration than they were the virtual conflict we call PvP.  The great thing about this is that that diverse set of desires and priorities engenders conflict.  That conflict will give PvP meaning in Crowfall, just as it currently does in EVE, and which other games lack.  Humans are an innately cooperative species.  For the most part, we don't just randomly fight each other for no reasons.  Games that suggest we engage in conflict for no better reason than the fact that we're wearing different colors leave us feeling like something is missing.  Games that give us the opportunity to don different colors in show of allegiance to one cause or another, those are games that capture the depth true conflict needs.

 

 

Nonsense survey question and nonsense interpretation.

 

PvP could very well be the reason that people are here, but that doesn't mean they would say the focus should be "exclusively PvP" since we are also here for an MMORPG with political, social, and economic facets.

 

I don't think you can conclude that people are here for "everything except PvP" simply because people want a full-fledged MMORPG to PvP in.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Jah

[courant101 5,755]

"Those who are excited about Crowfall must be big fans of PvP. That makes total sense, except that it turns out not to actually be true." "All these players who are interested in Crowfall are more interested in things like world-building, crafting, and exploration than they were the virtual conflict we call PvP."

 

^ This conclusion seems inaccurate. What I think the graph shows:

1) the large majority of CF fans don't want a game in which there's only PvP. They want some activities related to economy, crafting and politics.

2) most CF fans prefer "victory, achievement and building" over "beating people and burning down cities".

 

The conclusion is based off a longer and more involved conversation with Gordon Walton. We've kicked around doing a joint article at some point about some of the surprising things they've found in their surveys. Very interesting stuff, and if anyone out there is in college and looking for a statistics project to base a paper on, I'd highly recommend you reach out to the Crowfall guys.

 

But gist of it really is that the priorities of their community are distinctly everything else other than PvP. That's not to say the crows aren't interested in PvP, but simply that it's an extension of other passions and not the specific motivating factor in their enjoyment of the game. It's a true statement, I think. Though, it's also a statement missing a great deal of the depth that creates the true meaning it really deserves.

 

The problem is that you picked the one sentence in the whole article that deserves an article to itself. All I can say is that you're right, and I'll do what I can. =)

 

The surveys we filled out seem to be used as an evidence that the community is now more interested in non-PvP activities than PvP. 

[soulein 2,382]

 

To paraphrase an old Marxist idea, the value of a product is measured by the labor required to produce it.  I'm not even remotely a socialist, but it's an important model to understand when it comes to video games.

 

You may not be a socialist, but you're certainly as silly as one. Marx's Labor Theory of Value was taken to the woodshed for a good beating by contemporary economists. It's been a while since I've donned my bowtie, but this article was such garbage that I couldn't help it. No item or service in any economy, virtual or otherwise, commands value because of the effort or labor which was put into producing it. Things command value because a whole lot of people with spare resources somewhere have it in their heads that the "thing" is worth having and worth trading spare resources. These folks have also made the determination that it's not worth their time to try and produce it themselves (time preference).

 

A player doesn't want a Monarch Breastplate because of the time it's crafter spent crafting it, he wants it because it has all the stats he wants. The crafter can charge a fortune because it required all the most valuable resources and additives from the Campaign Worlds, resources the buyer doesn't have access to, but ultimately the price comes down to a negotiation between the two parties. If the devs implement a patch wherein Monarch Breastplates become gimped or sub-optimal, their price will drop dramatically because no one will want them. Crafters who made a bunch of them before the patch will be ruined. Henceforth, no one will waste precious CW resources on making Monarch Breastplates.

 

Value is psychological and subjective- something which eluded Marx and ostensibly this MMORPG.com author.

Tldr; bad article, learn to economics.

Edited February 17, 2016 by soulein

[Caenth 3,893]

The surveys we filled out seem to be used as an evidence that the community is now more interested in non-PvP activities than PvP. 

 

No, it's not. It's exactly as you said yourself. People are interested in the game as a whole and the PvP just goes with it. It's a part of the game and not the sole reason to play. The graph only highlights the common sense. Just a mmo where you just can PvP doesn't exist and can't exist. Other systems like economy, guilds, immersive world to play in are important to create a setup to have pvp in. That is what the graph shows.

 

There is no conspiracy theory here that moves Crowfall away from PvP. 

 

Edit: The specific line in the article is written horrible, I'm not referring to that. I only look at the graph which seems totally applicable to me.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Canth

[PhatPingu 179]

Funny how this article coincided with a comment I made on YouTube just recently... So I'm going to copy and paste it here.. then perhaps you guys can share WHY you are EXCITED for Crowfall

As a WoW player.. (since BETA) I have also been seeking the next Vanila thrill.. and I havent really been excited about ANY MMO since WoW except maybe Wildstar, which served to make me realize something very important:

The reason I didnt enjoy Wildstar as much as I should have (in theory) is not necessarily Wildstar's fault. Wildstar is just another WoW with a different combat mechanic... and the combat mechanic is really fun.. but it's not enough to make me feel invested in the game.

Then I started remembering why I wanted to play WoW in the first place (before even Beta)
Because of the promise of being PART OF SOMETHING, a GREATER EFFORD.

You see, when I first heard of WoW, what imagined was a game in which you are either Horde or Alliance, and each (if not most) of your actions, would help in the war effort. I was excited to know that when I logged in, what ever it was that I was doing mattered, cuz I was contributing to the ultimate goal of our faction. 

What happaned instead is.. as time passed.. that vision became less and less important to Blizzard (and us players) who forgot that initial idea, and went on to develop what we currently know as the ROLLERCOSTER experience... and the more we played it.. the less we remembered.. or at least me.. 

Crowfall helped me remember that.. it helped me remember WHY I wanted to play an MMO in the first place.. and I think you should consider checking it out.. cuz if you are anything like me.. I'm sure it too will re-candle your hope for the genre... 

[courant101 5,755]

Red_Thomas: "Those who are excited about Crowfall must be big fans of PvP. That makes total sense, except that it turns out not to actually be true." "All these players who are interested in Crowfall are more interested in things like world-building, crafting, and exploration than they were the virtual conflict we call PvP."

 

Red_Thomas: "The conclusion is based off a longer and more involved conversation with Gordon Walton." "But gist of it really is that the priorities of their community are distinctly everything else other than PvP. That's not to say the crows aren't interested in PvP, but simply that it's an extension of other passions and not the specific motivating factor in their enjoyment of the game."

 

Me: The surveys we filled out seem to be used as an evidence that the community is now more interested in non-PvP activities than PvP.

 

Canth: "No, it's not. [...]" "There is no conspiracy theory here that moves Crowfall away from PvP."

[Caenth 3,893]

Me: The surveys we filled out seem to be used as an evidence that the community is now more interested in non-PvP activities than PvP.

 

You can highlight whatever you want, but the "now more interested in non-PvP activities than PvP" part I feel is simply not true. Like I mentioned, PvP is the result of combining the different non-PvP systems. These fuel the conflicts/combat/PvP.

 

So is it fair to say the community is less interested in PvP than the other systems? I think not. Look at EVE. It has lots of other systems than just combat (PvP). Would you say PvP is not a big part of this game as well? It's exactly the same thing.

 

The author of that article clearly misinterpreted the graph wrong and he should not have written it down like he has done imo.

[Mytherceria 955]

Red_Thomas: "Those who are excited about Crowfall must be big fans of PvP. That makes total sense, except that it turns out not to actually be true." "All these players who are interested in Crowfall are more interested in things like world-building, crafting, and exploration than they were the virtual conflict we call PvP."

 

Red_Thomas: "The conclusion is based off a longer and more involved conversation with Gordon Walton." "But gist of it really is that the priorities of their community are distinctly everything else other than PvP. That's not to say the crows aren't interested in PvP, but simply that it's an extension of other passions and not the specific motivating factor in their enjoyment of the game."

 

I am significantly troubled by the interpretatin of this "evidence". I have a hard time believing that people aren't here for the PvP. Perhaps the results are skewed because PvP in Crowfall is a given - I don't see playing this game in any meaningful way without PvP. For this reason, PvP should be considered a control and not a variable, as people were probably filing out the questionnaire with the underlying understanding that PvP was the main premise of the game and not an "extra", and were (perhaps naively) hoping that the actual extras (crafting, exploration) would be icing on the delicious cake. This doesn't happen in most games, since PvP is often that "extra", and usually not a very good one. I hope this is true, because if people really are here for those perceived "extras" and not for the PvP, they are going to be massively disappointed since all the meaningful content will be PvP driven (I sincerely hope). Oh, and by PvP, I don't just mean hack, hack, slash, slash, I mean everything from combat to meta gaming and politics. Of course there will be PvP (Right? Please someone reassure me..).

[Caenth 3,893]

Of course there will be PvP (Right? Please someone reassure me..).

 

Of course there will be PvP. Reassuring you.

[miraluna 2,833]

There wasn't any mention of questing or PVE on that chart, so that's a positive.

 

It is interesting to me how many more people are on the building side of the chart, rather than the destruction side. Wasn't expecting that from this crowd   It does help me understand why ACE is investing in making the custom keep "Lego pieces" system.

[PhatPingu 179]

I guess what the author was trying to point out is that players arent only interested in killing each other for no reason, they want a reason.
Personally.. I want a reason.

Otherwise it's just an elaborate team death match, game.. 

 

In my opinion a PvP MMORPG SHOULD have bigger goals than just PvP.. 

Things like controlling resource nodes and strategic points are good examples of this.

Lets say... the goal of the campaign is to conquer the castle of your opponent.
To do that we are gonna need Battery Rams to knock down the gates....
To build those Rams we would need iron to craft said ram...
There is only one iron node in the center... 

He who controls the iron node is on his way to victory..
So players obviously would kill each other for that node..

 

So instead of just hunting around for players to kill.. we´d all be working together in a common goal, towards victory.

And in my opinion, these kinds of scenarios are what makes PvPing fun.. 
Mindless killing of each other gets boring after a while...
Having a goal and a reason to work together, however.. is what makes me wanna log in...

Edited February 18, 2016 by PhatPingu