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McFear

Change the Knights "Pursuit" move and give this version to assassin.

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Pursuit is bound to the 1 button and is a charge move with a shield slam when you release the button / or it reaches its max range.

 

I like this move but find it doesn't feel like I'm a heavy knight charging at a target. Instead I feel more like an assassin in "Assassins creed" running through a crowd pushing everyone out of my way as I slink past quickly and nimbly until finally I slam my shield down.

 

I feel the current version of this move would be very cool for an assassin and could be comboed up with an optional stealth activation or some other additional move option at the end.

 

As for the knight I think it would feel more fitting if everyone contacted along the path were staggered and/or on the first direct contact with another character the knight slam move automatically activates stopping the knight in place and staggering everyone near, opening up the ability to charge up and use shield slam.

 

Ideally I feel the pursuit move should stagger any grazed targets in its path and finish on the first target that full contact is made with or when button is released or upon reaching max range where the area effect stagger is then applied.

 

In contrast, an assassin version will slink through any crowd, pushing enemies aside without stagger (Perhaps a bleed effect gets applied to grazed targets along the way) until hitting the first target directly where a stun or crit hit is applied and a combo option to stealth or attempt another finishing move is given. Hit and run fun, and that's what the current version of pursuit feels like to me.

Edited by mcfear

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The Assassin is much lighter than the Knight (maybe 40% lighter).

She shouldn't be able to push anyone except a Duelist.

Instead, it might be cool for her to get pushed upward, by the amount she would have normally been decelerated when she uses this ability and collides with another unit. She would then fall at the normal rate, without slowing down or taking falling damage (because wings), unless she also expends stamina to glide at present height. ACE could show her jumping off the body of the intervening unit(s) as she starts upward. By deflecting up instead of left or right, she should be able to close with her target without having to turn, unless her quarry does. There's a chance of overshooting the mark while vertical, but it should be a fun effect; and keep the assassin moving quickly, which fits her agility-centric defense strategy.

And when the assassin collides with her intended target, she should be "glued" to her quarry like a couple of friendlies in a "shield lock" formation for the duration of the stun the pursuit attack placed on that enemy unit. This would let her land an additional attack when she catches him without bouncing off easily.

Edited by chancellor

I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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Right! Take the move as it is, but instead of moving others, the assassin snakes around them in the path of least resistance (With knives drawn out at sides slicing everything they pass with a light bleed effect) and leaping up and over as you describe had also crossed my mind as a possibility which gives the move double utility as an escape as well. OP? nah dynamic use for strategic players? ya.

 

The Assassin version could be tweaked many ways, my point here is that the current version of this move for the knight feels like more of a finesse move than the chase and impact move I feel a tank should have. Adding a stagger (Animation included) would make the whole thing look and feel better than pushing a confessed along while they continue their casting animation the whole time.

 

EDIT: and a side note to those who were demanding friendly fire be included at this point in development - This is one example of friendly fire effects that are already present. I'm not great at avoiding my allies yet and find myself pushing them all over the place from time to time.

Edited by mcfear

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I actually think it is one of the worst designed powers thus far.

 

It's totally unnecessary to have a move designed to charge when there is a universal sprint action in the game, they could better utilize the sprint function by adapting it to the Knight so they push lighter foes aside as they charge, and allow them to attack or activate a skill during the sprint for additional actions.

 

That's like second generation action design, combining one action with another to get a third action.

 

Beyond that, the primary types to implement this kind of charge and scatter technique should be Centaur and Minotaur, the artifical speed and mass granted to knight to enable these behaviors aren't appropriate.

 

As for assassin's, since Crowfalls assassin's are Fae, they'd better be suited to leaping and gliding over opponents rather than pressing through them. The abilities should take into consideration the unique identities included in each archetype and reflect those qualities. The classic cloak and dagger role in Crowfall is actually Ranger, and given the physics and tactics involved in Crowfall, I don't think they should be able to push through heavy foes. Features designed around single player gameplay lack the counterplay appropriate for PvP.

 

I might expect something like Guineacian to be able to run through crowds unhindered as a benefit of their size and avoidance. There shouldn't be any assassin's creed BS with Rangers and other light archetypes just weaseling their way through opponents, physics and obstruction are key strategic features which aid tactical play.

Edited by bahamutkaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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As for assassin's, since Crowfalls assassin's are Fae, they'd better be suited to leaping and gliding over opponents rather than pressing through them. The abilities should take into consideration the unique identities included in each archetype and reflect those qualities. The classic cloak and dagger role in Crowfall is actually Ranger, and given the physics and tactics involved in Crowfall, I don't think they should be able to push through heavy foes. Features designed around single player gameplay lack the counterplay appropriate for PvP.

 

I might expect something like Guineacian to be able to run through crowds unhindered as a benefit of their size and avoidance. There shouldn't be any assassin's creed BS with Rangers and other light archetypes just weaseling their way through opponents, physics and obstruction are key strategic features which aid tactical play.

I'd expect a sort of "dig under the crowd and appear on the other side" ability from the Guinecean.

 

Sure! But having the Assassin snake through the crowd would add more tactility to the fight. Now knowing that the Assassin can and will escape from body blocking you need to prepare for it. One thing that I for one am really excited for in this game is that not everything will be balanced, which, will and has lead to some very frustrating moments, but it's variety. Something I really hate in Heroes of the Storm is that people hate the hero Nova, in my mind she's awesome and can kill an entire team in one fell swoop if played right but, other players think that she's squishy and has no real escape. Guess what? That game already has the same (albeit less damage oriented) hero with an escape. Blizzard gave Nova an escape now and she's pretty much exactly the same.

 

I don't want every archetype to have this precious "balance" in mind during development, throw it right out the window. We have here an ability that would prevent body blocking for one archetype, not all of them, one, this is not removing the tactility to body blocking but adding more to it. You can body block all archetypes now except for the Assassin. So now what do we do? We fake her out and get her to use that ability and then body block her while its on cooldown :o​.

 

TL:DR Balancing everything removes tactility, not giving advantages.

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I actually think it is one of the worst designed powers thus far.

 

It's totally unnecessary to have a move designed to charge when there is a universal sprint action in the game, they could better utilize the sprint function by adapting it to the Knight so they push lighter foes aside as they charge, and allow them to attack or activate a skill during the sprint for additional actions.

 

That's like second generation action design, combining one action with another to get a third action.

 

Beyond that, the primary types to implement this kind of charge and scatter technique should be Centaur and Minotaur, the artifical speed and mass granted to knight to enable these behaviors aren't appropriate.

The problem with this idea is that sprint isn't a valid way to close gaps. Everyone has sprint.

 

The knight already has an action that is based on sprint. Knights have a snare on the 3rd basic attack, but if basic attack is used while sprinting, the snare will activate on the 1st attack. Unfortunately, it never works. In the rare instance that the attack connects, it doesn't seem to slow the target, but most of the time, the attack doesn't connect due to the animation lock. Maybe that will change once they add momentum to attacks.

 

The knight's charge isn't a scatter. It's a charge with a very short stun at the end, useful for closing gaps. The ability is currently bugged however where targets that are hit by the charge will often bounce away from the knight, avoiding the stun. Yes, the charge can be used to push other players, but that's the only thing that knights have that can. Push with Pursuit. Pull with Chain Pull. 

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@Vaeryx, quoting is not a substitution for reading, I didn't mention balance, and limitation is a greater implement of tactical play than accessibility.

 

@Arkade, I'm pretty sure malfunctions are a poor way too measure a features effectiveness. Knight is supposed to be able to rush up and snare or stun a foe, so the effectiveness should be measured by the desired outcome that they should correct, not try to solve a broken feature with a different feature, you just fix what's broken.

 

It's a small matter for them to change his attacks and skills to operate in combination with sprint instead of using additional skills. He has a shield bash, her has a snare action, tie them to sprint so the produce alternate effects during sprint instead of bloating the skill bar with stuff that can be chorded.

 

2+2 ppl, it's not complicated.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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@Vaeryx, quoting is not a substitution for reading, I didn't mention balance, and limitation is a greater implement of tactical play than accessibility.

 

@Arkade, I'm pretty sure malfunctions are a poor way too measure a features effectiveness. Knight is supposed to be able to rush up and snare or stun a foe, so the effectiveness should be measured by the desired outcome that they should correct, not try to solve a broken feature with a different feature, you just fix what's broken.

 

It's a small matter for them to change his attacks and skills to operate in combination with sprint instead of using additional skills. He has a shield bash, her has a snare action, tie them to sprint so the produce alternate effects during sprint instead of bloating the skill bar with stuff that can be chorded.

 

2+2 ppl, it's not complicated.

If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting that it be changed so that if I hit #2 (or #3?) while sprinting, my character will rush forward and stun the target, similar to how #1 (Pursuit) works now. If so, I misunderstood your original post. In any case, I really don't see the point of changing it. It's not like we have so many abilities that it's difficult to keep track. If you eliminate Pursuit by moving the functionality to Sprint + #2 (#3), they will just replace Pursuit with something else. And now because I have to use #2 (#3) for gap closing, it won't be available to use once I've caught the target.

 

I'm all for adding more options and interactions to our existing abilities, but I don't think this is the way to do it.

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There's plenty of point, there aren't enough actions to be interesting, in order to have more actions without wasting space with more keys, you just combine actions and allow them to have multiple functions depending on how they're used.

 

The sprint ability can be all the mobility you need, if it's not enough, you just fold the general distance you were going to grant with another skill into the stamina provided.

 

This method allows several skills to have 2 or more functions by combining obvious actions. More actions, fewer keys, better design.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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There's plenty of point, there aren't enough actions to be interesting, in order to have more actions without wasting space with more keys, you just combine actions and allow them to have multiple functions depending on how they're used.

 

The sprint ability can be all the mobility you need, if it's not enough, you just fold the general distance you were going to grant with another skill into the stamina provided.

 

This method allows several skills to have 2 or more functions by combining obvious actions. More actions, fewer keys, better design.

I'm not disagreeing with you about the need for more actions. What I'm saying is, moving Pursuit to Sprint + #2 and replacing Pursuit with something else isn't necessarily the best way to achieve that. There's no reason they can't leave Pursuit the way it is and add new interactions between the existing abilities.

 

I'm not sure where you are coming up with the idea of fewer keys. Do we need fewer keys? Is 10 too hard to manage? If they do what you suggest, they would simply add a new ability to take the place of Pursuit, so the number of keys would remain the same. If they didn't, then knights would be losing a valuable ability. Great, I can close the gap by using Sprint + #2, but now I can't use #2 while I'm engaged with the target.

 

Have you played the game yet? Do you really understand how your proposed change will play out? I've played the knight almost exclusively since 1.0 and I can tell you that it won't work as well as you think it will.

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I don't know how to say this without calling you dense. You think more abilities would be better but you don't see the point in folding an existing ability into other actions, exactly the way you also describe, and replacing the wasted space with another skill.

 

I was clear the first time, stop talking in circles and put 2 plus 2 together before dismissing it and arriving at the same conclusion in an oblivious way.

 

If they remove pursuit there's room for something else without adding hotkeys, the function can be performed with an existing skill and the existing sprint.

 

The current design is antiquated. If your still confused, just reread, there's nothing further to explain.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Let's wait till the assassin is being tested before calling for power swaps.

 

I've played a lot of knight. If anything the charge should have its distance range reduced by half ( make it a smaller distance more controllable charge) and replace the stun with a snare that last more than one second.


Hammers High !!  Master Brewer of the Dwarven Hold Mithril Warhammers

 

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I don't know how to say this without calling you dense. You think more abilities would be better but you don't see the point in folding an existing ability into other actions, exactly the way you also describe, and replacing the wasted space with another skill.

 

I was clear the first time, stop talking in circles and put 2 plus 2 together before dismissing it and arriving at the same conclusion in an oblivious way.

 

If they remove pursuit there's room for something else without adding hotkeys, the function can be performed with an existing skill and the existing sprint.

 

The current design is antiquated. If your still confused, just reread, there's nothing further to explain.

Actually, you weren't clear. At no point (prior to this post) did you state that Pursuit would be replaced with another ability, nor did you suggest what that ability might be. You didn't even specify which ability would be used in conjunction with Sprint to achieve the desired effect, so how am I supposed to be "clear" on what you are suggesting? You know that the knight's other stun is behind a combo, right? Are you suggesting that I would have to press #3 twice while sprinting in order to dash forward and stun the target?

 

So no, you haven't been clear at all. And in the absence of knowing what Pursuit will be replaced by, it's hard to see your idea as anything but a negative for the archetype. I'm not saying that your idea can't work, but you've only given us half of it. Less than half of it, actually.

 

If you want to discuss it further, then spell out exactly what you want to see happen. Specify which abilities will be used with Sprint, how they will be used, and what the effects will be.

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Yawn, I have little and less time to detail a feature that can be understood with any practical amount of logic. If your unwilling or incapable of recognizing possibility space without a complete design, than that's your shortcoming, the application is obvious, and anyone can recognize the benefit without presenting unnecessary features which are easily occupied by an "opening for something else".

 

The problem is that the first explanation was adequate, and your expectation is a straw man that does not need to be fulfilled for the design to work. There is no right answer for a wrong question.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Yawn, I have little and less time to detail a feature that can be understood with any practical amount of logic. 

Yet you still took the time to respond. 

 

I understand the concept just fine, but the devil is in the details. If you can't be bothered to provide them, then I can't be bothered to agree with you.

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I actually think it is one of the worst designed powers thus far.

 

It's totally unnecessary to have a move designed to charge when there is a universal sprint action in the game, they could better utilize the sprint function by adapting it to the Knight so they push lighter foes aside as they charge, and allow them to attack or activate a skill during the sprint for additional actions.

 

That's like second generation action design, combining one action with another to get a third action.

 

Beyond that, the primary types to implement this kind of charge and scatter technique should be Centaur and Minotaur, the artifical speed and mass granted to knight to enable these behaviors aren't appropriate.

 

As for assassin's, since Crowfalls assassin's are Fae, they'd better be suited to leaping and gliding over opponents rather than pressing through them. The abilities should take into consideration the unique identities included in each archetype and reflect those qualities. The classic cloak and dagger role in Crowfall is actually Ranger, and given the physics and tactics involved in Crowfall, I don't think they should be able to push through heavy foes. Features designed around single player gameplay lack the counterplay appropriate for PvP.

 

I might expect something like Guineacian to be able to run through crowds unhindered as a benefit of their size and avoidance. There shouldn't be any assassin's creed BS with Rangers and other light archetypes just weaseling their way through opponents, physics and obstruction are key strategic features which aid tactical play.

The "totally unnecessary" part I disagree with. Simply put, getting a charge ability that is not tied to your stamina is a perk that is worthwhile to me. As a knight I like to keep as much stamina for using my shield as possible. We all use sprint in combination with moves already, so what you suggest is no change at all except removing the charge part of the charge move. I can't say I agree with that....  There's lots of room for lots of moves including those that have synergy as you suggest without "wasting space with more keys" as you put it.

 

You're correct that I should have suggested forwarding the current version of this move to the Ranger rather than the Assassin, and chancellor pointed out that the assassin should jump up and over body blocks instead of slinking through them AC style which I also agreed with up there.

 

You confuse me with this part though: "Features designed around single player gameplay lack the counterplay appropriate for PvP.". I'm not sure what feature you're suggesting is designed around single player gameplay. (AC is after all not just a single player game) but I hear it as "a move that counters body blocking lacks the counterplay appropriate for PvP". Which translates to "it ain't not at all not gonna be good for things that it ain't not bad for" in my head...  Like I said, it confuses me, countermoves lack counterplay?

 

I get the feeling that you want the body block to be insurmountable and that other strategies to counter this (Single strategy) don't belong.  physics and obstruction are key strategic features which aid tactical play. And evasion, escape, teleport etc are not tactical play? I'm with you, a knight is a blocker and I understand the fun in using this strategy for tactical play....  But if the only way to get around body block is to...  Well I don't even know what you suggest would be acceptable, but it's starting to sound like boring gameplay to me.

 

Thanks for sharing your opinion. I for one do not agree with it on these points though.

 

There's plenty of point, there aren't enough actions to be interesting, in order to have more actions without wasting space with more keys, you just combine actions and allow them to have multiple functions depending on how they're used.

 

The sprint ability can be all the mobility you need, if it's not enough, you just fold the general distance you were going to grant with another skill into the stamina provided.

 

This method allows several skills to have 2 or more functions by combining obvious actions. More actions, fewer keys, better design.

 

You either mean that by combining moves to effectively create moves on the fly that have different effects depending on the combination OR you mean that the effect of using different moves together or in macroed combination is like having more moves without making a button for each possible combination. Either way...  Yes. And on that note it would be VERY cool if moves had differing outcomes depending on combinations like if you're sprinting or a stance you're in, buuuut, not the topic at hand. Have you proposed this idea in another thread?

 

Let's wait till the assassin is being tested before calling for power swaps.

 

I've played a lot of knight. If anything the charge should have its distance range reduced by half ( make it a smaller distance more controllable charge) and replace the stun with a snare that last more than one second.

 

 

I hear ya, I didn't actually mean to give this to the assassin, only meant to illustrate that as this move is now it FEELS much more like a move that should belong to the assassin (Which I have been corrected about, and it should be Ranger instead). I agree with your suggested changes as an option as well, but I still don't want to be pushing people around with it, I want and IMPACT on first full collision.

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Yawn, I have little and less time to detail a feature that can be understood with any practical amount of logic.

 

Amazingly though you do have the time to be condescending :(.

 

I would add that abilities when comboed produce different end results, sounds a good idea.  It might be worth pursuing but I tend to think that implementation and balance would be very very challenging.  Still as McFear says not this thread.

 

So on topic again I like the idea and think the move could be made more "knighty" :).


0f678e9787b873074149c019e1245cc58ac62d89

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Pursuit is bound to the 1 button and is a charge move with a shield slam when you release the button / or it reaches its max range.

 

I like this move but find it doesn't feel like I'm a heavy knight charging at a target. Instead I feel more like an assassin in "Assassins creed" running through a crowd pushing everyone out of my way as I slink past quickly and nimbly until finally I slam my shield down.

 

I feel the current version of this move would be very cool for an assassin and could be comboed up with an optional stealth activation or some other additional move option at the end.

 

As for the knight I think it would feel more fitting if everyone contacted along the path were staggered and/or on the first direct contact with another character the knight slam move automatically activates stopping the knight in place and staggering everyone near, opening up the ability to charge up and use shield slam.

 

Ideally I feel the pursuit move should stagger any grazed targets in its path and finish on the first target that full contact is made with or when button is released or upon reaching max range where the area effect stagger is then applied.

 

In contrast, an assassin version will slink through any crowd, pushing enemies aside without stagger (Perhaps a bleed effect gets applied to grazed targets along the way) until hitting the first target directly where a stun or crit hit is applied and a combo option to stealth or attempt another finishing move is given. Hit and run fun, and that's what the current version of pursuit feels like to me.

 

hey leave the knight alone, if you don't like it play another class


 

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