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zerocyde

Change My View, Full-Looters.

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EDIT: View changed in 2 posts. New record! http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/1106-change-my-view-full-looters/?p=25406

 

I would definitely rather have full-loot than no-loot, but I hold that Shadowbane's all but gear looting system was even better. Your gear should be a part of your character. It is asinine to me to equate your toon to just a naked nothing that uses gear as nothing more than a temporary but necessary buff to become powerful and trod off into the world with. Why not let your skills and stat points all fall off and be lootable on death?

 

Unless gear becomes exactly like armor in the real world. Plain old non magical off the shelf items. If armor is nothing but an equip-able item that increases your defense and can be replaced at a reasonable price at Joe's Steel Chest Pieces N' More on main street then fine. But if gear is powerfully magic, vitally important to your character's abilities, and takes a lot of work to obtain, it should not be loot-able. If people risk entire parts of their character by venturing into PvP then I think the results will not be fun.

 

All that being said, I do feel that Shadowbane's system, where the most you could lose on death was whatever gold you were too stupid to secure, was not punishment enough. I feel that more should have been at risk upon death, but I do NOT feel it should be your gear.

 

Maybe if all normal gear was purely cosmetic, but the stats on them came in the form of separately acquired enchantments of some sort that stick with the character and are able to be recast, even on your post-death starter loin cloth. Maybe gear durability reaching zero should mean the gear drops and becomes loot-able instead of gets broke. I'm not sure.

 

In Shadowbane you didn't risk enough, with full-loot you risk too much. I think somewhere in between is best.

Edited by zerocyde

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Full loot is best.  It's necessary for the economy.  The other option is armor that wears out very very fast and needs replaced.  Either way, you will need to replace your gear so might as let it fall to the ground when you die.

 

Put your big girl panties on and suck it up.  It's just armor.  Grab another set from your bank or go back and loot your body if you are lucky.  Or loot someone else's body for gear if you have to in the middle of a siege.

 

Looking at this whole full loot vs inventory loot discussions going on, I think back on the first week of this forum and well, I have a very different impression of Shadowbane today compared to then.  In hindsight, that first week was roflmao hysterically funny.

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Full loot still keeps every piece of gear crafted in the game in circulation. So if you get beat in a fight, your guildies can just give you a full set to replace what you lost and off you go; no worse off than before the PvP, and no wiser. Worse yet, the inventory of Items in game keeps rising at an accelerating rate until farmed and crafted gear is nearly worthless for the PvE and Crafting players to sell. This is why Items should degrade a tiny amount with each use, not just when a toon dies. And when the toon dies most of his equipped gear should disappear with his body, not to return when he respawns. PK's will still get to hear/read the carebears squeal over the loss of their beautiful rainbow princess battle armor, and they should still get to pick their favorite spoils from the defeated enemy just before he dematerializes. But to have a healthy game, we need to keep the players hungry. And if crafters want to be respected in their guilds, their products need to be valuable

Edited by chancellor

I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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Full loot discourages pvp. People want to protect their pixels, and if someone spent 10 hours farming to craft their leet sword of perfect template building, they'll likely quit the game if they get ganked in a 1v10.

 

Like it or not, the game needs the people willing to farm and craft for hours on end in order to maintain a population for folks to kill.

 

For those who played SB, think of how many times someone in the field evacc'ed from you as soon as you popped into sight - and that was just to save a couple of minutes worth of gold and potions.


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Full loot adds a sense of excitement and thrill to a PvP encounter that it is impossible to get from any other. At the same time it leads to new frustrations, but to me the reward from killing someone and taking their stuff or defending myself from being on the receiving end vastly outweigh the frustration at losing my equipment from time to time. I don't think it is a system for everyone, but for those of us who can enjoy it, there really isn't anything that comes close. 


Winter is coming. 

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A happy medium would be: Full Inventory drop + One random equipped item 

 

You die. You are mad. You lost an item, it was valuable, but you are not going to uninstall the game over it. You'll live (to die again).


Crowfall: The Official Game of

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Full loot discourages pvp. People want to protect their pixels, and if someone spent 10 hours farming to craft their leet sword of perfect template building, they'll likely quit the game if they get ganked in a 1v10.

 

Like it or not, the game needs the people willing to farm and craft for hours on end in order to maintain a population for folks to kill.

 

For those who played SB, think of how many times someone in the field evacc'ed from you as soon as you popped into sight - and that was just to save a couple of minutes worth of gold and potions.

First: any arguments regarding "X person might get frustrated and quit the game forever!" should never hold any weight here. This is a cutthroat sandbox game, obviously most gamers can't handle that kind of gameplay in general. There's no point trying to appease such people; they'd end up quitting the game over a similar incident (losing territory, losing a large fight, etc.). It's likely that full loot would make some of those people quit sooner than they might have otherwise, but again, it's just delaying the inevitable.

 

Second: full loot does not discourage PvP. In some cases it might discourage people from wearing their best/better gear for PvP, but if gear affects combat sufficiently then they'll be putting themselves at a disadvantage by doing so. Games with full loot have never had this problem.

Edited by Zarithas

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If there is no full loot then open world pvp will be useless and only gatherers will be penalized. Since you risk nothing because of the empty backpack there is no point anymore.

 

Full loot is the only system along with item decay on use, that will boost the economy, the more your gear stay in the world the more crafter will be useless and economy stagnant.

Edited by kdchan

Archduchess Alice

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I would intentionally make a character whose sole design was to gank people loot and destroy their crap.

What an effective way of keeping a group of people allied under a common banner weak, by exploiting a poorly implemented mechanic.

Edited by phatcat09

#CrowFallBata


~Sweet Sensations~


puppy punch Count: 28

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And if crafters want to be respected in their guilds, their products need to be valuable

 

This really hit me. Just the idea of your gear coming from your guild's crafter's instead of normal MMO gear sources REALLY changes the entire full-loot perspective in my eyes. I really want this. If gear comes from HUMAN crafters, readily available providing your guild has good crafters, then I think full-loot is the way to go.

Edited by zerocyde

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This really hit me. Just the idea of your gear coming from your guild's crafter's instead of normal MMO gear sources REALLY changes the entire full-loot perspective in my eyes. I really want this. If gear comes from HUMAN crafters, readily available providing your guild has good crafters, then I think full-loot is the way to go.

 

This. The detractors seem to be fixated on the model that one will camp a rare mob for hours, or attend numerous raids to get a chance to roll that one sweet sword or piece of armor and obviously don't want to lose the item, nor the time invested. That may not be a valid comparison to Crowfall's itemization, which may have more "mundane" items which would be largely more accessible and replaceable, with some leet exceptions, I'm sure.

Edited by flex

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This. The detractors seem to be fixated on the model that one will camp a rare mob for hours

 

The detractors are just the themepark crowd, they can't handle to lose their precious gear after years of farming and grinding for the epic spark gear in the traditional multiplayer brawlers (i don't call them mmorpg anymore).

They accept only the inventory drop because they simply will wandering around with an empty backpack, lose nothing and risk nothing. They will never accept that another player will stole their gear even if that gear is crap.

Think about it, the reason why mmos in the last decade are all the same wow clones is because of this mindset, the devs don't make sandbox anymore, just AAA themepark where you are the hero without any risk, where you are safe, like a parent that drag a kid hand by hand.

Edited by kdchan

Archduchess Alice

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I am going to be irritated if no items come from PvE combat. I rather enjoy killing things en masse for the opportunity of gear (as an ARPG defector), or completing dungeons, which are basically puzzles with fighting units as pieces.

Actually Ithink what I'm actually going to be annoyed  about is if people have to rely on finding a crafter to get anything.

And I'm an avid crafter.

I'm conflicted.

The more I think about it the more it seems that crafting will supply everything in the game, which to me means losing out on one aspect of MMOs I really enjoy which is the high level loot drop or even just gearing up. If I have to purchase everything, or gank it off of someone other person, or make it myself (although I won't mind that part). I'd be irritated. I don't wanna have to take someone else's stuff cause I need something and I don't want to make it necessarily or buy it. Finding things off mobs has so much less baggage associated with it.

Bleh...hope there are some NPC type events that have us hunting/resolving some non-PC related problem. 

Edited by phatcat09

#CrowFallBata


~Sweet Sensations~


puppy punch Count: 28

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Firstly, for the full loot to work at all a simple yet important feature is needed. Durability...
If the use of a weapon is limited then they become more of a consumable, rather than something to cling on to for dear life.
I also think that depending on what materials are used the number of times a weapon can be repaired (by a crafter) is limited.

Having weapons that eventually disappear will create a drain on the economy that scales with player level, which prevents long term inflation.
This means having a more stable economy. This is why if you are to make items recyclable the amount of metal you get back should be almost negligible.

Having disappearing weapons also means that crafters will never run out of clients, there will be fluctuations in the market due to over-saturation but players will always need more weapons.

Full loot only works in a system like this.

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Full loot makes planning, financial management, logistics, and resource attrition a thing.

 

Full loot can serve to balance sieges as well. Lets say you have two established guilds going at it for that sweet island castle spot, I'd rather win a war of gear attrition, and eventually see people charging back to battle scantily clad with a tree branch in pure desperation than see the implementation some sort of death/resurrection debuff where as an artificial inhibitor to rush back to battle or re spawn penalty to prevent people "bind rushing" large scale battles. How bad do you want my city? How much of your guild bank and crafter's resources are you willing to burn? Do you have gear bags prepped in the bank and ready to go? How many consumables, potions, clickies are you willing to run around with? It adds another layer of depths to both small scale and large scale conflict, and adds a self-correcting mechanic the leader or the individual can assess and react accordingly to rather than an artificial one such as a debuff.

 

Full loot is good for the economy.

 

You gotta get items out of the economic cycle via decay and ultimately being rendered useless least you incur the "item bloat" and inflation common in so many MMO titles. While item decay is the keystone to this, item loot compliments it in a big way undercutting the otherwise slow attrition process of retained gear by evaporating it entirely into the hands of an enemy faction/guild/random hooligan. They go hand in hand in creating a healthy, sustainable digital economy.

 

e6t75l.jpg

 

Full loot makes crafters and harvesters much more important.

 

While this game isn't for everyone, some people are just born to be that master smith or guild quartermaster, some people just like mining and exploring, PKs need hapless victims, guilds need armor, and a economy of rapidly depleting goods makes for a healthier crafter ecosystem than one which allows equipment to exist indefinitely. Full loot is actually MORE friendly to alternative play styles than standard PvP.

 

Full loot can get this game more press, and therefore a larger playerbase.

 

Because its different, its old school, it distinguishes Crowfall from a sea of titles which may or may not offer varying degrees of PvP. The mere references toward possible full loot has already generated a lot of buzz in various forms of games media, forums, comments sections on CrowFall related articles, etc. Online Gamers are not nearly as squeamish towards this concept as they were in the early 2000's due to the rise in popularity of survival titles like Day Z and the new H1Z1 offering to the genre by Sony.

 

Full loot compliments the possible survival nature of Crowfall.

 

Desperation and competition are highlighted in a system of limited, if not scarce resources. If you can run around with a backpack of food and drink, a keg of healing potions, and a cloak of frost protection, it trivializes survival. Full loot makes it necessary to plan what you'd be willing to take with you, what you'd be willing to lose, and in a desperate situation, kill that innocent bystander because your hunger bar is almost depleted and he has apples in his inventory.

 

Full loot inspires territorial conflict over resources rather than just for luls and pwnage.

 

See the real world.

 

Full loot can be FUN.

 

"Bro, so I was walking around the valley and I saw this guy from faction X/guild X/some random and I chased him down and ganked him, bro he had like 20 gold and like 15 steel swords on him ROFL why would anyone carry that much? But yeah they're really mad now lolol XD"

 

can be more interesting than

 

"Bro, so I was walking around the valley and I saw this guy from faction X/guild X/some random and I chased him down and ganked him."

 

s2f1.jpg-s2f4.jpg-s2f5.jpg-s2f6.jpg

 

a new shield AND a teabag is more satisfying to some than just a teabag.

Edited by flex

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So this is a complicated issue. I'm not even sure whose side I am on it. But here are some thoughts.

 

1. Is full loot enough to keep crafters' produce valuable? Statistically speaking, if Crafter Chris makes 100 swords an hour and his friend Newbie Nathan loses 100 swords an hour to Ganker George, who in turn loses 100 swords an hour to getting stomped on by King Kyle's army, does this mean the system is in balance? The swords getting disseminated by the King Kyle's army go back into the economy, either as swords or as converted into gold. So we end up with a surplus of swords (Chris keeps crafting them!) which leads to their devaluation (uh oh) or with a surplus of gold, which leads to inflation (is that actually better?). What I'm not seeing in this picture is an actual "sword sink". Or a gold sink. Unless one of the actors in this scenario is actually destroying swords for good, over time, a glut of swords will build up. From this it follows that ganking for wealth re-distribution does nothing for the economy. You actually need stuff to get destroyed over time. i.e. permanent durability loss or huge repair bills. If Crafter Chris is making 100 swords an hour, someone else, somewhere, needs to DESTROY 100 swords an hour, not just steal them or corpse loot them. 

 

2. I'm sure we'll have some sort of gold sink that will drain the value of swords out of the economy over time one way or another. How do you make sure that it matches exactly the efforts of every crafter on the server? If all the crafters make 10000 swords an hour, how do you ensure that exactly that many swords get destroyed in the same time frame? Margin of error of even 1 sword will result in inflation/deflation of value over time. It's a hell of a problem. Should the server adjust repair costs for the entire world based on how many goods are in circulation? That's one way of doing it. Notice how the amount of ganking and corpse looting going on is completely irrelevant to preserving the value of crafter goods? It would only be relevant if the amount of destroyed goods were proportional to the pvp deaths. I.e. the ganker does not get full loot, because part of the loot goes kablooie on death.

 

3. For the purpose of balanced economy, it doesn't matter whether the items stay on the corpse or move to the ganker's inventory. The only thing that matters is how many of those items get completely broken (removed from the economy on death) or how damaged they get per death. Funny thing is, suppose you have 10 items you wear at the same time. If the death tax is 10%, it doesn't matter whether a) one of your items gets randomly destroyed or b ) each of your items lose 10% durability. In both cases, you pay 10% of your loot's value on death and balance is preserved - if 10% per death is enough to offset the crafter's production output!

 

4. Yet, suppose that the game went with the carebear approach, just bear with me for a minute. Everyone loses durability on death, nobody loses any items. You pay durability in terms of the cost of the item, by paying gold. So we have gold inflation. This is a huge trap! In online economies, the simplest way to earn value is by producing raw resources. In such a system, we would have both a glut of produced weapons (because no weapons break, they are not needed) and a shortage of other resources, most importantly gold used for repairs. So you have the worst of bot farmers, starving under appreciated crafters and another inflated wow economy. So this conflicts with number 3. Gear must get DESTROYED on death, not just damaged, or crafters go hungry, and bot farmers become rich.

 

5. So that's where the resource cycle happens. Ganker George does not need 100 swords per hour. He will sell them for gold to a vendor. That's how the swords go out of the economy and gold comes in and things balance out, and the crafters are happily employed.

 

6. You could achieve the same result, however, if gear simply broke on death. Not dropped. Nuked from orbit. Well, it would give less gold to Ganker George. That would mean the gold would stay more valuable, perhaps go into deflation. That may be a good thing in moderation.

 

7. Finally, one awkward argument to caution you all about oddity of the rules of online worlds. Game designers hold the bizarre legislative power over the players by making the way the world works. This is what happens when you die. This is how much it costs to make replacement gear. These are the laws of physics in our online world, right? The danger here is having unintended consequences. In real world, when you, for example, criminalize abortions, it won't stop people from making abortions! Abortions will continue, whether the law wants it or not. All the law can do is prevent the legal clinics from doing them. So instead of a proper doctor in a sterile operating room your average assaulted teenager will be serviced by Al the retired alcoholic whose medical license got revoked for unmentionable reasons, and the abortion will take place in some basement with rats scattering in the corners and a rusty coat hanger. Yum. Is that what the law intended? So what does that have to do with anything? When a designer makes a rule about full corpse looting, or lack thereof, unintended consequences will result in hilarity. Is the armor too expensive to replace during a siege? So, how many sieges have you seen in historical movies about middle ages done by butt-naked people? How's that for immersion?

 

In conclusion, I'm all for corpse looting, as long as the economy stays healthy and I don't have to stare at a guy's unmentionables while he's loading a catapult.

Edited by Roxfall

Greatswords for Frostweavers 2015! For great justice! And swords.

P.S. I like swords.

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Full loot makes planning, financial management, logistics, and resource attrition a thing.

 

Full loot can serve to balance sieges as well. Lets say you have two established guilds going at it for that sweet island castle spot, I'd rather win a war of gear attrition, and eventually see people charging back to battle scantily clad with a tree branch in pure desperation than see the implementation some sort of death/resurrection debuff where as an artificial inhibitor to rush back to battle or re spawn penalty to prevent people "bind rushing" large scale battles. How bad do you want my city? How much of your guild bank and crafter's resources are you willing to burn? Do you have gear bags prepped in the bank and ready to go? How many consumables, potions, clickies are you willing to run around with? It adds another layer of depths to both small scale and large scale conflict, and adds a self-correcting mechanic the leader or the individual can assess and react accordingly to rather than an artificial one such as a debuff.

 

Full loot is good for the economy.

 

You gotta get items out of the economic cycle via decay and ultimately being rendered useless least you incur the "item bloat" and inflation common in so many MMO titles. While item decay is the keystone to this, item loot compliments it in a big way undercutting the otherwise slow attrition process of retained gear by evaporating it entirely into the hands of an enemy faction/guild/random hooligan. They go hand in hand in creating a healthy, sustainable digital economy.

 

e6t75l.jpg

 

Full loot makes crafters and harvesters much more important.

 

While this game isn't for everyone, some people are just born to be that master smith or guild quartermaster, some people just like mining and exploring, PKs need hapless victims, guilds need armor, and a economy of rapidly depleting goods makes for a healthier crafter ecosystem than one which allows equipment to exist indefinitely. Full loot is actually MORE friendly to alternative play styles than standard PvP.

 

Full loot can get this game more press, and therefore a larger playerbase.

 

Because its different, its old school, it distinguishes Crowfall from a sea of titles which may or may not offer varying degrees of PvP. The mere references toward possible full loot has already generated a lot of buzz in various forms of games media, forums, comments sections on CrowFall related articles, etc. Online Gamers are not nearly as squeamish towards this concept as they were in the early 2000's due to the rise in popularity of survival titles like Day Z and the new H1Z1 offering to the genre by Sony.

 

Full loot compliments the possible survival nature of Crowfall.

 

Desperation and competition are highlighted in a system of limited, if not scarce resources. If you can run around with a backpack of food and drink, a keg of healing potions, and a cloak of frost protection, it trivializes survival. Full loot makes it necessary to plan what you'd be willing to take with you, what you'd be willing to lose, and in a desperate situation, kill that innocent bystander because your hunger bar is almost depleted and he has apples in his inventory.

 

Full loot inspires territorial conflict over resources rather than just for luls and pwnage.

 

See the real world.

 

Full loot can be FUN.

 

"Bro, so I was walking around the valley and I saw this guy from faction X/guild X/some random and I chased him down and ganked him, bro he had like 20 gold and like 15 steel swords on him ROFL why would anyone carry that much? But yeah they're really mad now lolol XD"

 

can be more interesting than

 

"Bro, so I was walking around the valley and I saw this guy from faction X/guild X/some random and I chased him down and ganked him."

 

s2f1.jpg-s2f4.jpg-s2f5.jpg-s2f6.jpg

 

a new shield AND a teabag is more satisfying to some than just a teabag.

 

Everything mentioned can be handled by inventory loot + equipment decay when dying. I'm not saying one way is better or not but none of this differentiates full loot vs inventory loot. 

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much of what I wrote depends upon the loss of weapons and armor and therefore maintains an impact on the control of ore nodes and pvp resupply, and thus inventory loot would not be a direct replacement, such as points 1 through 6, and imho point 7. Incremental item decay should exist in tandem with item loot, through use and not as an arbitrary death penalty, the only way it could act as a replacement for item loot would be if you lost an incredibly substantial percentage of durability (like 25-50%), and max durability upon each successive repair. (10%) whereas an item loot system could accommodate smaller increments of decay.

 

Constantly seeking repairs, imho, is less fun for all parties involved i.e. the combatant and the crafter, than just preparing gear bags and re-outfiting the lost kit while allowing the crafter to create new units of equipment. I'd personally rather play my crafter, get some supplies set up, and maybe join the siege rather than hang back at base and set up a rotating door assembly line of equipment repair with each causality. In an item loot system a crafter could do that if he or she so desired, yet it wouldn't be necessary as it would be in a system with substantial item decay upon death,

Edited by flex

b7xcsz.jpg

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