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Change My View, Full-Looters.

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Full loot is great but I think it works best when accompanied with a realistic encumbrance system.

Running around with 10 full sets of plate armour and 5 broad swords in your back pack that you've looted on dead players is dumb.

Looting a player should be a tough risk vs reward decision. Do I take his full armour and accept being slowed down to a crawl until I can unload in my bank? Or do I just take that one item that's really good and keep running around at normal speed?

 

I agree on this. It was done partially well in DF after they raised mounts weight.

Edited by fenrisddevil

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I'm definitely a fan of some kind of modification of the shadowbane repair system, but fixed so that gear actually does have to be replaced over time.  

 

I think full loot can totally be done in such a way that re-arming and getting back out to fight is cheap and fast, but it would need to be done that way for it to work.  You can't have it be too expensive or take to long that it gets in the way of the PVP.  You can't have your crafting system get in the way of your pvp system.

Edited by silk

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In a full-loot game, average gear is more expendable. The difference here isn't that there is no gear that is better than the average (implied by the word of course) but that the best gear isn't leagues ahead of that mid tier stuff. So, most people just stick to the more easily replaceable stuff when they are doing their usual exploration and so on. You can still use the harder to craft gear, but it's more risky.

 

In the end, this is your choice, but don't fret. Hardcore Sandbox MMOs are not your cookie cutter themepark raid based gear treadmills. Gear serves us, and is mostly crafted, and the differences in gear power are fairly modest compared to what you might be used to, so it's not necessary to use the best to be competitive. It'll just give you a bit of an edge. 

 

Trust me though, nothing can come close to replacing the unmitigated surge of explosive adrenaline that kicks in when you're out in the wild with your gear and inventory forfeit, you see an approaching group of players on the horizon and you realize... you have to get the hell out or fight for your life, so much depends on it. The thrill this brings is truly unparalleled. Sure, if you end up dying it stings, but I'd rather have highs and lows than a steady dull riskless hum. 


The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.

- Nietzsche

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Trust me though, nothing can come close to replacing the unmitigated surge of explosive adrenaline that kicks in when you're out in the wild with your gear and inventory forfeit, you see an approaching group of players on the horizon and you realize... you have to get the hell out or fight for your life, so much depends on it. The thrill this brings is truly unparalleled. Sure, if you end up dying it stings, but I'd rather have highs and lows than a steady dull riskless hum.

The highs are oh so worth it.

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I think full loot takes away from PvP. Inventory loot is the way to go. There is too much to do after getting killed; get more gear, repair this, etc, etc.. It leads to people running around naked, and more running than fighting (which takes away from the entire game, imo). I know all the UO guys will hate me for saying that... but I prefer the inventory loot system.


Every player in the game gives me a quest:
Quest: Kill me.

Reward: All my stuff.

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Actually... IDK. I guess I cold really care less. So long as there IS player looting.


Every player in the game gives me a quest:
Quest: Kill me.

Reward: All my stuff.

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Weight should play a large roll if you have full loot in any game. It needs to slow you down and drain stam (if the game has stam). Mortal Online does full loot well if you ask me.


 

 

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I'm getting kinda tired of my fellow SB players who advocate the inventory loot.

 

 

Be honest here for a second. What the hell did you ever risk, let alone lose in SB?

 

A conc pot? a recall scroll? the occasional rune? whoopdi****indoo, we all duped anyways.

Money was worth jack**** and we all, at the very least, macro farmed anyways.

 

Equipment for spec-toons from the guild were usually rolled with duped ressources. Or you Mourning folks... which one of your toons didn't have FC jewelry?

most of us didn't even work for the gear we got, let alone risk anything.

 

 

 

stop being afraid ffs, you make some of us look bad!

I'll be 100% honest with ya freeze never duped a thing in SB.  Macro Farmed yes. 

 

All in all I would like to see inventory loot, but if its full inventory loot it wont bug.  For the people that are more or less casual players I could see where they will just up and quit which would be a bad thing.  So item decay is a valued solution

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My position at the moment is in favor of Inventory Loot with Permanent Item Decay though I am open to change (full loot) if the next part gets proven wrong. People say that in the event of Inventory Loot everybody would run around with empty inventories but I disagree. Why? because Crowfall has Hunger Resistance and Warmth Conversion! Since there has been so much stress about strategic locations it is not wild to imagine that people may have to carry food and blankets (sophisticated weather system!) with them for drawn out sieges. In my opinion it would make the whole concept of Hunger Resistance and Warmth Conversion more interesting and more purposeful, though I can see why this still might not be enough for some people but at least from this perspective inventory loot isn't necessarily pointless.

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I've slowly garnered an understanding of this "full-loot" conversation.  The idea of full loot reminds me of my early days playing MUDs with my cousin.  There was a danger inherent in being around other players, because if you died they got your stuff.  But, for the most part that "stuff" was easily replaceable.

 

As another reply already mentioned, in the old MUDs the majority of your character's capability was a result of stats and learned skills ... better gear only slightly augmented those capabilities.  I think a couple other replies to this thread nailed it when they mentioned that people who are against a full loot system probably do not have an accurate understanding of the difference Crowfall seems to have with gear compared to, say, WoW.  In WoW (and other themepark MMOs), getting the best gear is the result of a potentially lengthy process of running content repeatedly in order to be the top roll on an item that drops a minimal percentage of the time.  Because the effort involved in acquiring that piece of gear was extremely lengthy, that player would be averse to any system which would endanger its existence ... whether it is decay or full loot.

 

I don't proclaim to have a full understanding of how Crowfall is handling all the various game systems yet.  I am personally intrigued by the idea of full loot.  I am definitely a proponent of some form of item decay.  My final determination on full loot would depend on how gear factors into the game.  If it is going to be a game about getting the most l33t piece of shiny available, then full loot may be too much.  In my opinion, gear should be a supplement to a character.  A ranger with a short bow should have a specific range based on how well they know how to utilize that weapon.  A ranger with equal skill who has endeavored to attain a short bow made of a stronger, more flexible wood, should have a slightly longer range ... because the weapon is SLIGHTLY different.  That second ranger would not automatically defeat the first ranger if they were to meet in combat.  The second ranger would have a SLIGHT advantage, if utilized, while the first ranger was far enough away.  However, if the second ranger ignored that difference and allowed the first ranger to close the distance between them, it would be a fair fight and either ranger would be just as likely to be victorious.

 

As a side note ... risk / reward should be huge.  Some of the discussion has centered around how full loot and inventory loot will influence what people do and do not carry around.  So be it.  Period.  If I choose to purchase a Porsche, would I never drive it around?  No.  Would I be more careful when and where I drive it around?  Absolutely!  Those answers are based on my personal situation too.  Even if I could afford a Porsche, I could not afford to replace it with a second ... hence I am more careful with the first.  In reality, there may be players wandering around in awesome stuff ... because they have more of it back in the bank.

 

Alas, I ramble ... I am convinced about item decay (was a long time ago) and I am intrigued by the idea of full loot and inventory loot.

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I'll be 100% honest with ya freeze never duped a thing in SB.  Macro Farmed yes. 

 

All in all I would like to see inventory loot, but if its full inventory loot it wont bug.  For the people that are more or less casual players I could see where they will just up and quit which would be a bad thing.  So item decay is a valued solution

 

well maybe you personally didn't, but I'm sure not all of the bane scrolls used by your guild weren't that legit ;)

 

that's beside the point tbh, it's just that it seems some are very limited in their view and stuck on how SB worked.

 

If I had to actually farm for all the ressources it took to craft 1 weapon in SB and have full loot on top of that... custard I'd probably quit too

 

But the availablity of competitive gear will be much higher, and I doubt anyone who played SB, would quit over these lost pixels :)

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I want to preface this by saying I want full loot, I just do not think it will work.

 

After reading most of the posts in this thread the one thing I have not seen anyone mention is that it will scare folks away. I have seen inventory loot be called the carebear approach and maybe it is. The truth is however you don't want to scare folks away. SB population got so low that logging in for mines was about the only time you found good PvP. Sure you could roll through a few zones and kill some AFK macro group but that was not exactly fun. 

 

A full loot game does not promote a healthy server. For that you need new people. New people even at max level probably wont be great players. They will infact die, a lot. This means unlike the folks ganking them they will not have banks full of gear. A new player that spends all their time farming ore just so he can make gear to loose it again will probably not stick around. I want people to kill. We need the newbies and bad players to beat up on just as much as the other good ones. A world with thousands of players all over the place it better than a world with hundreds you can never find. The one thing that can kill a PvP game like this is not being able to find the PvP your looking for.

 

Item decay will serve to balance the economy if done right. I agree something needs to be done about bind stone rushing at a siege I just don't think this is the way to do it. 

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I once played a game where if you left the safe-zone, you could put up to a certain amount of items in a "locked backpack" sorta thing, when you died, those items were saved, but everything else could be stolen. I feel like this is a pretty good idea, then some things will remain safe but say you have lots of other stuff in your backpack as well because you're on a journey to deliver something or what-not, you might have food, money, you have to keep the item safe so maybe you  have to take out part of your armor to keep that  safe, you're risking all of that stuff while the few items are still safe. 

 

You will end up losing something, but still keep stuff, therefore the kill player will still benefit but it won be as bad for the dead player.


I say to you: the Hunger is not your enemy. Your enemy walks among you, charming and handsome, with a tongue full of lies.

 

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The modern MMO solves retention with the gear treadmill. If you have only inventory loot, this COULD be the case. However, that will kill crafting and ultimately disrupt the balance of power in pvp, making it gear-centric.

 

With full loot systems, gear is not really the means of creating retention. For large guilds and the most elite, that retention will come from the land control game, sieges etc.

 

There needs to be a retention mechanism for the have-nots as well. The average joe, the small guilds, possibly even soloists to some extent.

 

Gordan Walton described housing as the thing that did it in UO. Will that be the hook for folks in Crowfall? Not sure, but as long as there is a system to retain the little guy I do not think full loot will be a problem.

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Inventory loot with reasonable armor decay.  You have to keep the crafters busy.  The decay should be reasonable(total loss after 3 deaths?) to give you some fear of dying, yet it should not be a total loss after only one death. That would detract too much time to regear in a bane.

Also, most of these opinions in this thread are assuming that we are playing end game.  What about start up?  Everyone will be running around in low level crap that no one will want to loot.

And there is the weight issue.  If you are on a rogue with limited carrying capacity, there wont be much looting of the knight you just killed.  You would be more likely to loot his gold, food and blanket than his uber leet chest piece that you cant carry anyway.

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Gordan Walton described housing as the thing that did it in UO. Will that be the hook for folks in Crowfall? Not sure, but as long as there is a system to retain the little guy I do not think full loot will be a problem.

 

In my opinion, the retention of the little guy is directly correlated to how well the game encourages social interaction.  BTW, I consider myself the little guy.  I'm not a hardcore player.  I don't have time to raid on a weekly basis.  I enjoy video games, but I have a life with work, a wife, and a boatload of responsibilities other than memorizing hundreds of pulls.

 

My brother-in-law commented to me a while back that I was extremely social when we played SWG together.  He was right.  That game required you to interact with people.  You needed to learn where the good crafters were located.  You had to know where the doctors had setup shop to get the buffs required for any significant combat.  You learned where the best player cities were located, because they were the real centers of commerce and activity.  In short, you were encouraged to interact with other players.  I also interacted with people on my terms.  I was a crafter, an architect, that was my "role" in the game.  For me to be successful, I had to provide other players with quality items.  To achieve that goal I had to work at finding good resources and then crafting the best possible items from those resources.  My "role" / "goal" in the game was my own and different from other players, which fed into the interaction.

 

As I progressed to WoW, I found I was initially social.  But that was during vanilla, when I talked my cousin into playing and my brother-in-law joined as well.  Again, during vanilla and part of BC, you had to be social and interact with people.  Hell ... someone had to show me how to get to BRD.  Another person walked me to Kharazan.  In those days, you had to put a group together and then actually travel to the content before you even started the instance.  Did LFG make running that content easier?  No, I would argue the content difficulty was the same ... what it did was make running content more EFFICIENT.  Less down time putting a group together.  Less down time actually traveling to/from the content location.  What happened simultaneously, was it made running content less social and interactive.  As a result, I found I spoke with people less and less.  I queued for my content and ran it.  I would jump on Teamspeak, Ventrilo, or whatever ... but I just fulfilled my role in the group, completed the content, and moved onto the next.  As WoW continued to "improve" its grouping tools I found that more and more I just logged in, did some stuff, and logged out.  Often with minimal interaction or communication with other players.  I mean sure, they are all around me while I'm at the bank in Stormwind, but I don't have any reason to know who they are or what they do in the game.  We all do the same thing in the game ... we all run content in order to get a chance at rolling highest on that shiny piece of equipment that dropped.  Because everyone is in the game doing the same thing, after the same thing ... if the option was available I think most people would choose not to interact.  

 

Like I said, I'm the little guy though ... I am the casual MMO player.  Perhaps it is completely different if you are a hardcore l33t raider and part of a guild.  Here's the thing.  I LOVED SWG ... I could play it as a casual MMO player and I felt like I got the same opportunity to enjoy the game as everyone else.  I never got that feeling from WoW, or EVE, or Wildstar.

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Ive been playing Archeage for a few months now...and the Asian bots are everywhere....WHY ?????? --->  NO FULL LOOT !

Full(or just bag) Loot drop is a must for any game economy....Games like Shadowbane, and Utlima were fantastic because of loot drop.

Just make resourses easy to obtain, and quick leveling and full loot stops becoming a major issue.  the key is keeping the "care-bear"  and the "Griefer" both happy...and your game will be a major success !   (not sure how you keep them both happy ---> UO "Trammel" tried and ruined that game within a month.  ....U guys will figure it out !   but for the love of god...make sure you keep stealth/stealing/tracking and "player housing/house fighting" in the game.

 

Also please make it so you can attack anyone !  (no same faction/race alliance BS )  

 

Thanks,

 

The Grapist....."looking forward to Graping you all in the mouth ! "

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I think full loot will work better in a game without levels. Make monsters difficult based on a combination of skill+gear, and not arbitrary stats given each time you reach some magical number of experience.

 

If you die, you start again on the 'easy' mobs, or other ungeared players. Shouldn't take an exceptionally long time to catch back up, to some extent. But there should be clear advantages to having the best items, which should take time and resources to create.

Edited by Teekey

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CF.GG


Your primary source of Crowfall news, guides, and information.

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I think full loot just puts too much downtime for the defeated player into the equation. Inventory looting and gear decay should be sufficient for keeping the crafters in business.

 

 

A good way to reduce downtime after death is to provide a good user-friendly interface for equipping armor/weapon sets from your bank or inventory. There are a few ways that can be implemented, but reducing the number of clicks and drag-and-drops to the bare minimum is the main goal.

 

I think looting a corpse should follow Darkfall's style, though, where you really do have to individually drag and drop every item. That adds some degree of risk to looting, as it makes you a sitting duck if you're looting a lot of items.

 

 

I agree on this. It was done partially well in DF after they raised mounts weight.

 
Agreed.
Edited by Zarithas

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Ive been playing Archeage for a few months now...and the Asian bots are everywhere....WHY ?????? --->  NO FULL LOOT !

 

Fantastic point!

 

It was the same with ESO, GW2 and many other titles.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5q9NbAm6Ms4

 

What if you could kill and loot these people? Problem solved without so much as a petition.

Edited by flex

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