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Change My View, Full-Looters.

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I'm on the fence about full loot system right now. There are aspects of it that I like about full loot and aspects I do not. I think it all depends on balance or how it is implemented into the game.

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I'm on the fence about full loot system right now. There are aspects of it that I like about full loot and aspects I do not. I think it all depends on balance or how it is implemented into the game.

 

Exactly. If you just shoehorn a full loot system into current traditional MMOs, it will be broken.

 

The game has to be designed from the ground up with full loot as a major system that compliments the rest of the game systems and the gameplay itself.

Edited by Teekey

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well maybe you personally didn't, but I'm sure not all of the bane scrolls used by your guild weren't that legit ;)

 

that's beside the point tbh, it's just that it seems some are very limited in their view and stuck on how SB worked.

 

If I had to actually farm for all the ressources it took to craft 1 weapon in SB and have full loot on top of that... **** I'd probably quit too

 

But the availablity of competitive gear will be much higher, and I doubt anyone who played SB, would quit over these lost pixels :)

I know we all farmed our butts off on dread to drop rocks and carpet bane the ones against us. But having a few open vendor city's where our cash cows lol. 

 

I agree I don't think people from SB will quit over lost pixels. They will quit from nothing to do, and then return later ;)

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Exactly. If you just shoehorn full loot into current traditional MMOs, it will be broken.

 

oh my god I understand that term now...


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I would intentionally make a character whose sole design was to gank people loot and destroy their crap.

 

What an effective way of keeping a group of people allied under a common banner weak, by exploiting a poorly implemented mechanic.

You would not be alone. Crowfall will certainly be full of people looking to do just that. For the PK's guild, this is part of the war of attrition. However, ganking a member of another guild within his guild's borders is an act of war. Whether the offender's guild admits sanctioning the hit or not, the offended guild would then have a pretext for reprisals. I suspect that the beefs that divide some of the older guilds may have begun in similar fashion.

 

"Most men lead lives of quiet desperation" (-Thoreau).  PvP can be an outlet for some of that angst.

Edited by chancellor

I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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well maybe you personally didn't, but I'm sure not all of the bane scrolls used by your guild weren't that legit ;)

 

that's beside the point tbh, it's just that it seems some are very limited in their view and stuck on how SB worked.

If you're going to accuse someone of cheating, you need to bring evidence, or you need to retract your statement, period. That's just common courtesy when attempting to conduct a civil discourse on a subject.

 

If it seems I'm stuck on SB's loot system, it's because I found it to be ideal for a game based on GvG combat. I could care less if I pick up your sword of leetness after PKing you. I'd much rather burn your house down. I don't want to spend time farming up 30 sets of gear in order to remain at top performance in a tough siege against a guild with twice my numbers. I'd much rather spend that time killing people.

 

In my entire SB career, I never had a set of "perfect" gear for my scouts, and to be frank, I didn't really care. I had boots and a bow, so I could walk into combat. However, I recognize that I am the exception to that. Rather than attempt to force a playstyle that is an anathema to most MMORPG players onto them, I'd prefer to let them slowly recognize the superiority of a game where the players make the rules. A full loot system will chase off those traditional players who may be on the fence before they ever begin the game.

 

Heck, for years I advocated for scouts to have an anti-evac power, simply because I was tired of SB players evaccing so they wouldn't lose a couple of conc pots and 50k they just farmed up.

 

More people = more combat. Whatever gets me that, wins.


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Full or partial loot, I don't care as long as it works with the rest of the game mechanics but...

 

If it seems I'm stuck on SB's loot system, it's because I found it to be ideal for a game based on GvG combat. I could care less if I pick up your sword of leetness after PKing you. I'd much rather burn your house down. I don't want to spend time farming up 30 sets of gear in order to remain at top performance in a tough siege against a guild with twice my numbers. I'd much rather spend that time killing people.

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Full loot is great but I think it works best when accompanied with a realistic encumbrance system.

Running around with 10 full sets of plate armour and 5 broad swords in your back pack that you've looted on dead players is dumb.

Looting a player should be a tough risk vs reward decision. Do I take his full armour and accept being slowed down to a crawl until I can unload in my bank? Or do I just take that one item that's really good and keep running around at normal speed?

This is the most realistic proposal so far, but it still doesn't  help us balance the economic system, unless the dropped gear that the PvP victor rejects disappears with the body of the loser. even if the ganker runs off witout all that loot, someone will retrieve it eventually and put it back into play.

We've never seen a MMORPG where players were hungry for resources over long periods of time. But in real life, this was assuredly so. Ancient warefare was not like we see in movies with the whole army is outfitted in style. Plate Armor was only for Knights and above in medieval times, and it didn't really exist before the late roman empire. A man (with just clothes, no armor) would join your army just for giving him a sword because decent weapons were often so rare. Good armorers and blacksmiths were rarely forced to be front line troops, because the lords needed fresh weapons and armor. Equipment really did break, often in battle; and all this stuff really is heavy.

Edited by chancellor

I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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If you're going to accuse someone of cheating, you need to bring evidence, or you need to retract your statement, period. That's just common courtesy when attempting to conduct a civil discourse on a subject.

 

If it seems I'm stuck on SB's loot system, it's because I found it to be ideal for a game based on GvG combat. I could care less if I pick up your sword of leetness after PKing you. I'd much rather burn your house down. I don't want to spend time farming up 30 sets of gear in order to remain at top performance in a tough siege against a guild with twice my numbers. I'd much rather spend that time killing people.

 

In my entire SB career, I never had a set of "perfect" gear for my scouts, and to be frank, I didn't really care. I had boots and a bow, so I could walk into combat. However, I recognize that I am the exception to that. Rather than attempt to force a playstyle that is an anathema to most MMORPG players onto them, I'd prefer to let them slowly recognize the superiority of a game where the players make the rules. A full loot system will chase off those traditional players who may be on the fence before they ever begin the game.

 

Heck, for years I advocated for scouts to have an anti-evac power, simply because I was tired of SB players evaccing so they wouldn't lose a couple of conc pots and 50k they just farmed up.

 

More people = more combat. Whatever gets me that, wins.

I 100% agree van how many times have we dealt with a dead server? I know we are all looking for fun.  

 

1 thing that brought me back heavily was us testing teleport points onto a city grid to bring groups in heavy.  I am sad we didn't get to use what we tested :(

 

Attack points and siege points I look forward to on city's or nations. 

 

Once again if death is full loot so be it. It won't stop me from divide and conquer tactics! B)

Edited by washuu

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If they do this right, the combination of full loot plus plus full crafting should address most issues.  To wit:

 

1.  From the sounds of it, armor and weapons are going to be constantly worn down and eventually break completely.  The rates may be lower for better quality items, but it seems like nothing will be eternal.  I suspect while good weapons and armor will be worth having, they will have a flatter curve where someone with decent normal weapons can still compete; e.g. your armor and weapons, no matter how good, won't move you into God Mode

 

2.  Assuming some reasonable encumbrance system, anyone seeking to make themselves rich looting others will need to factor in the costs of repairing the items they loot, not to mention the time spent.  Yes, you can do it, but it fits into the entire system where players depend on each other.  The looter needs to work with merchant and crafting types

 

I think a lot of the fear of how full looting will work comes from its poor implementation in other games which are heavily gear based and have little/no item sink economy.

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rather have shadowbanes' loot rules, its better than darkfall/UO loot rules imo

 

 

full loot...with maybe a few "blessed deeds" to protect your best 2-4 items

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I think Ultima Online had a great balance of economy when it came to gain and loss and it encouraged players to be more responsible. Yeah you could lose everything but nothing you lost had anywhere near the weight of a super drop from modern mmos. The obsessive itemization going on now is more of a weakness than anything. It poisons every aspect of a game.

Edited by Elektrum

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I am still not for full loot.

 

I liked sb system for the most part.

 

its a distraction from pvp...I think of those long back n forth banes where we had to die n run back before the tree/stone was down and can imagine someone yelling.."does anyone have any HA pants!!...I am out of pants!!".

 

heck ppl lost stuff just because they forgot to repair.

 

I don't want that kind of BS in the middle of a siege.


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I am still not for full loot.

 

I liked sb system for the most part.

 

its a distraction from pvp...I think of those long back n forth banes where we had to die n run back before the tree/stone was down and can imagine someone yelling.."does anyone have any HA pants!!...I am out of pants!!".

 

heck ppl lost stuff just because they forgot to repair.

 

I don't want that kind of BS in the middle of a siege.

 

In Darkfall people just made sure to prepare at least 3 full bags of gear before a siege or big battle.

 

I don't think it's a big deal.

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In Darkfall people just made sure to prepare at least 3 full bags of gear before a siege or big battle.

 

I don't think it's a big deal.

I played df

the banes in df were not as hectic as SB. You didn't have the turnaround and summons chains etc

yah and I had rdy bags  with mounts and casting mats etc...pain in the ass!

 

lets face it if you have to venture out of yer lil castle to get stuff and make it back that is gonna be rough.

hell...I more then likely come to yer lil castle just to peek in yer pockets


Know me and fear me. My embrace is for all and is patient but sure. The dead can always find you. My hand is everywhere - there is no door I cannot pass, nor guardian who can withstand me.

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Full loot is best.  It's necessary for the economy.  The other option is armor that wears out very very fast and needs replaced.  Either way, you will need to replace your gear so might as let it fall to the ground when you die.

 

Put your big girl panties on and suck it up.  It's just armor.  Grab another set from your bank or go back and loot your body if you are lucky.  Or loot someone else's body for gear if you have to in the middle of a siege.

 

Looking at this whole full loot vs inventory loot discussions going on, I think back on the first week of this forum and well, I have a very different impression of Shadowbane today compared to then.  In hindsight, that first week was roflmao hysterically funny.

 

I've ranted a lot about this in the past:

 

I think whether or not "full loot" is a good thing is highly dependent on other systems present in the game,. On the gradient of full loot to no loot there are two axes you need to follow.

 

1. How valuable, central, and/or difficult to achieve is "gear"

2. What is the appropriate risk for PvP.

 

As you can imagine both of these things meet in the center somewhere and are closely correlated.  If gear is highly generic to the point where it's almost "manufactured" and doled out to the troops. losing it isn't that big of a deal.  In a system like this I tend to be more ok with full loot.

 

If there is a wide range of gear tiers or custom crafted items have a very high ceiling in their value then I tend to be more concerned about a full-loot system. This will discourage people with the best gear to use it, and will allow the best players to consolidate wealth and power at a highly increased rate (don't get your panties in a bunch SBers; there is a lot of reasons why this is bad for all of us).

 

Aside from a general dislike I have with "gear-based" games or games where the pursuit of shinies is the sole motivation for playing (it drives all sorts of toxic behavior in people and general brings out the worst in us and our guilds from what I've seen), I have concerns about the two axes not being managed properly.

 

The gear needs to be valuable enough for the winner of a fight to get something out of it, yet not so valuable that it ends up being horded or lies in the hands of a select few l33t PvPers. And if that system is the system we want we need to limit the advantage it gives you in combat.

 

I'm not exactly sure how to solve this problem from a design standpoint, but in my mind I want a couple of things from the gear system.

 

1. I want the best gear to come from crafters.

2. I want gear that is diverse enough in it's stats to allow players a very high degree of customization (Going against those religious zealots we stacked holy resistance gear tonight! or put on your dex gear bros)

3. I want gear to break and decay over time. (creates an economy sink to help with inflation)

 

So one thing about NOT having full loot and only dropping inventories is in a way you can increase the logical cap of how strong gear can be without a ton of adverse effects in the game.  This does a lot of great things for crafters (potentially makes them more valuable) and adds levels to guild "advancement" in the area of gear.

 

I need to think about this before and clean out the cobwebs, but I think a key takeaway here is that whether to have "full loot" or "partial loot" or whatever is a decision with pretty far-reaching implications. A lot of hardcore PvPers don't realize that in some cases systems like full-loot can actually take away from the experience you want to have.

 

Ultimately you want to motivate people to fight and challenge each other as much as possible.  If the loot systems dissuades people from that it could be problematic.  This is actually why most MMO players freak at the idea of full-loot, because they're superimposing their current experience in gear-based MMO's on top of that system.  Gear in WoW and gear in Shadowbane are two completely different things.


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Also if you go back in your original Shadowbane manual and look, it talks bout how you were supposed to have a chance to drop gear you were wearing.  Obviously this feature never got implemented, but it looks like they're trying to bring it back.  The realms further in (which i'm guessing are realms that have a shorter lifespan than ones further from the center) have a chance to drop equipped gear.  I think this is awesome.

 

Also seems they included dear degradation on death like SB, implementing the need to repair things lest they break and you lose it that way.

Edited by jehuty

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To build off my previous post I think most of you will be happy, looking at the map of realms and seeing the different loot rules, you'll be able to play were you are happy.  Personally I don't want FULL loot.  But i really like the idea of having a chance to drop gear you're wearing.  More risk, more reward, and it keeps the need for crafters late in the game.

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I think full loot just puts too much downtime for the defeated player into the equation. 

 

This was the main issue for me with Darkfall. Well, this and searching for hours for PvP, and being "forced" to macro every hour of the day we weren't active just to stay competitive, but I digress.

 

The downtime could be HUGE if you didn't have a large supply of decent gear in your bank. First you had to farm the ores to craft the armour, bow, staff, 2H weapon, 1H weapon and shield, then you had to skin the materials to enchant it all, then you had to farm the reagents for all your spells. Oh yes, you needed to farm bushes for a mount too. And food. And pots. If you didn't have one item you needed for PvP, you were screwed. If you weren't carrying the right gear, it could put you at a massive disadvantage.

 

After all of that farming / crafting, a few of you could run around searching for hours to find someone to kill, only to run in to a group of 20/50/100 heading to a siege, or just out looking for people to gank.

 

I have no issues with full loot, as long as gear is not a chore to obtain. Personally, I think Shadowbane had it right. Perhaps something like the Shadowbane system, with irreparable gear, could be the answer.

 

Full loot did give me a buzz, and enhanced the PvP aspect, but it was such a ballache to replace items that we ended up spending far more time crafting / farming than PvPing.


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