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Reider

Combat - Comparisons and personal opinions.

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If they distinguish different mobility types properly,  than the benefits should be balanced with shortcomings.

 

One of the things that irritates me about games like LoL, where everyone uses flash and there are tons of force move, is that a lot of force move ignores terrain and obstruction even though they are not teleporting or leaping. How does a dash go through a wall? Why can you be blocked with an obstruction during a leap? The rules of force move are very haphazard with little interest in distinguishment. 

 

Really, dashes should be more available and unable to pass through objects, teleports could have larger kit weight for superior function. And why the hell they don't have regular movement speed boosts that give you a sudden surge of speed capable of covering superior distance compared to a force move during a similar amount of time, I don't know, your still fully blocked by obstructions.

 

If Crowfall has stuff like genuine teleports that can go through obstructions, well could be walls too, should actually be really slow. And I don't approve of ranged artillery using force moves, they should have greater reach and combat melee approach techniques by trying to overcome them on approach.

 

A sudden dash type skill should be unique to one or two assassin type classes which have to attack at melee range, yet don't have the defense to survive aggression on approach, and that is it. It would be better if mobility roles like cavalry were designated for general chasing and routing, infantry combat shouldn't be about chasing and fleeing, it's a chaotic behavior which clashes with unit obstruction, large scale combat, strategy and friendly fire...


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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I'm not sure what the "momentum" thing is and I don't think anyone else really is either, but I do worry that it's just going to be a baby step in a direction when what's needed is a giant leap (literally and figuratively!)

 

The momentum thing is that attacks will carry momentum when you are running before the attack, instead of a full stop as it is right now.

 

And some attacks on Crowfall do carry movement, just not as much as the ones in Tera, which doesn't mean that it is a bad thing, I think there are a lot of small of things that might end up making the combat feeling better without changing that much. (tweaking animations, adding on hit effects and improving the sound effects, maybe adding a bit of extramovement in the attacks would be a good thing too, I just don't want extreme movement plus really long dashes, but again this is just personal opinion and there is obviously some people that would rather have a lot of movement)

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So this whole video is great, but the part I'm linking to explains Crowfall's biggest failure. I recommend to view at least that part:

 

https://youtu.be/8RGzzS1jGJc?t=448

 

 

TERA has been cited as an inspiration for the combat by the developers themselves, yet they've completely neglected to implement the "movement during animation" part of the formula. You'll notice that thus far the vast majority (or ALL?) of action combat MMOs have been asian in origin. I believe the exaggerated mobility during locked animations is more palatable to an asian audience. Or in simpler terms, they're used to everything looking like anime over there.

 

So Crowfall takes the animation locks but leaves behind the anime to westernize it, and as a consequence we actually ARE all rooted in place, the erroneous criticism of TERA as rooted combat that's dispelled in the video can be accurately levelled against Crowfall. I really hope the developers watch this video, and if they already have, they need to watch it again. Honestly I'm pretty sure I was linked to this video from this forum originally but I completely forget.

 

I'm not necessarily saying TERA combat is perfect or something that I particularly want. I've never even played TERA or the other oft-cited action combat games because I don't bother with non sandbox trashy "MMOs".

 

What I am saying is that if they're not going to do animation locks properly, they need to abandon it and try something else instead of half assing it. If they're going to do animation locks, anime the crap out of this game cause that's the only way we've ever seen it work before and there's no need to reinvent the wheel on combat when everything else about the project is already a risky niche choice.

 

I'm not sure what the "momentum" thing is and I don't think anyone else really is either, but I do worry that it's just going to be a baby step in a direction when what's needed is a giant leap (literally and figuratively!)

I hope the devs revisit the video linked here.....

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Siege Perilous is going to be an important shift for this community around combat.  Although I agree with combat needing a lot of tuning in terms of speed and fluidity, and ways to mitigate the ease of escape, let's not forget that the point of the game is not "last-person-standing."

 

For instance, now when we kill a whole group and one person is still up, I feel both (1) annoyance that they can escape so easily and (2) awareness that it is pretty much irrelevant because nobody can 1 v 4 with the hunger.

 

In Siege Perilous, I expect the win condition to shift from last-person-standing to more material goals of successfully siege-ing or defending.  This will change, to an extent, how I feel about stragglers.  Further, in the more dynamic and persistent game, that straggler will be able to regroup and rally.

 

Looking just at combat, there is a long way to go to make it more fun.  But looking at the intersection of combat with the rest of the game yet to be rolled out makes some of these issues tough to analyze.

 

Just things I try to keep in mind.

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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Perhaps they should just make it easier on themselves and pattern CF combat (very closely) on TERA's?  They are already following EVE with other systems.  Why attempt to reinvent/alter something that works well?  I'd much prefer a TERA solution to a strafing, FPS clone...


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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Perhaps they should just make it easier on themselves and pattern CF combat (very closely) on TERA's?  They are already following EVE with other systems.  Why attempt to reinvent/alter something that works well?  I'd much prefer a TERA solution to a strafing, FPS clone...

 

I believe it's mostly because TERA had one of the biggest development budgets in MMO history and about 200 employees.

 

Creating this kind of combat is time consuming (design, VFX, animations, balance...) and requires several excellent developers.

Edited by courant101

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I believe it's mostly because TERA had one of the biggest development budgets in MMO history and about 200 employees.

 

Creating this kind of combat is extremely time / money consuming: design, VFX, animations, balance and several excellent developers.

 

If it is cost/time/labor prohibitive, then perhaps it is better to have decent FPS/Wildstar-ish combat than bad TERA-esque combat.  Ranged PvP in Wildstar was fun IMO--it was melee PvP that I found floaty and inferior (but still playable).     


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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If it is cost/time/labor prohibitive, then perhaps it is better to have decent FPS/Wildstar-ish combat than bad TERA-esque combat.  Ranged PvP in Wildstar was fun IMO--it was melee PvP that I found floaty and inferior (but still playable).     

 

I haven't played Wildstar but I've read people saying that the combat was fun and there was a lot of freedom in movement. Maybe they could have borrowed more elements of combat and mobility from that title... Now though, I'm pretty sure that ACE will stick to something close to what they developed so far, with some slight improvements to make it feel more fluid and easier to catch mobile targets (sliding). It's the second time that they're making big modifications to it since the KS demo if I'm correct, and I guess at this point of development they prefer to polish it and start adding new archetypes rather than taking the risk to change major things. We only have 4 archetypes so far out of 13, no crafting nor destruction, the progression system just got implemented, apparently they began recently to work on new structure features (LEGO), vessels system and the creation of tiles for the worlds... and we're 10 months from the estimated date for launch so it's time to move forward imo.

Edited by courant101

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We already know they are adding movement to abilities, where you continue moving when you use an ability with momentum carrying you in the direction you were going.

 

Hopefully we see it for 2.0 in a month or less


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Siege Perilous is going to be an important shift for this community around combat.  Although I agree with combat needing a lot of tuning in terms of speed and fluidity, and ways to mitigate the ease of escape, let's not forget that the point of the game is not "last-person-standing."

 

For instance, now when we kill a whole group and one person is still up, I feel both (1) annoyance that they can escape so easily and (2) awareness that it is pretty much irrelevant because nobody can 1 v 4 with the hunger.

 

In Siege Perilous, I expect the win condition to shift from last-person-standing to more material goals of successfully siege-ing or defending.  This will change, to an extent, how I feel about stragglers.  Further, in the more dynamic and persistent game, that straggler will be able to regroup and rally.

 

Looking just at combat, there is a long way to go to make it more fun.  But looking at the intersection of combat with the rest of the game yet to be rolled out makes some of these issues tough to analyze.

 

Just things I try to keep in mind.

 

I also agree that combat still needs improvements, but this is really important.  Right now there are no objectives to fight over, which means running away at the first sign of losing and trying to survive the final battle in the little safe zone of the hunger is a viable strategy.  That won't really work when you have to attack/defend a castle (or caravan).  You won't be able to dance around their attacks while they bash your walls down, you will have to commit yourself to attack them.  Having these objectives influence the way you take part in combat.

Edited by Bnol

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So this whole video is great, but the part I'm linking to explains Crowfall's biggest failure. I recommend to view at least that part:

 

https://youtu.be/8RGzzS1jGJc?t=448

 

That video is completely spot on. Attacks should force you into movement choices -- advancing, dashing, jumping backwards or to the side, and so on. The closer Crowfall can get to TERA or Vindictus, the better.

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I do not want to play a button mash memorize game where I have to bunny hop and circle jerk which is games like Tera/BDO. There should be a serious stamina drain for movement in combat besides. 

 

I don't want to play a boring slow moving medieval war simulator (which crowfall is not). In fact, the combat in crowfall is VERY arcadey, which I like. They fixed movement and the camera for the most part, all they need now is to work on the animation lock.

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The movement definitely needs work. I think a mix of rooted animation for high damage attacks and mobility for lower damage attacks would be the best way to go. My main problem with the combat so far is the lag time between using an ability and seeing the animation. It is also very hard to tell if you are doing any damage. Also I mainly play as the champion in the alpha tests and when I play as that archetype I do not feel like a big powerful warrior. I went 1v1 with a confessor and a couple hits in their life bar had hardly moved at all. Meanwhile the confessor had already taken 1/3 of my health down. In general the combat just does not feel balanced at all, it does feel clunky and slide(y). I know weight and movement are supposed to be used to push other smaller characters, but it just feels off.

Edited by Rumshooterduke

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I do feel we need to revisit combat because most people agree, it just isn't very fun. It's mediocre. It's plain. It's probably the most complicated, yet standard combat system. Sure it has the bullets, you know, physics, dodging, mass, blocks, powers, etc. but lacks a certain something that I can't put my finger on. There is something off about the combat. Games like Chivalry, TERA, Smite, etc. all have very simple yet entertaining combat engines that I just don't get from Crowfall. Specifically from Chivalry, I think Artcraft should note blocking. Blocking in it's current state is pointless. No matter what you get hit, and the damage prevented when blocking still isn't enough to justify it. Chivalry has the right level of reaction time and accountability with the animations. With crowfall I think the animations are okay but distracting and not flashy enough to tell the player "Block now!". Say what you will about when there were indicators on the ground for powers, it worked. Look at Smite or Wildstar. Sure it might not look pretty, but it allows players to say "Hey get out of the way" a lot more than, "Is he about to hit? Idk, block?"

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I do feel we need to revisit combat because most people agree, it just isn't very fun. It's mediocre. It's plain. It's probably the most complicated, yet standard combat system. Sure it has the bullets, you know, physics, dodging, mass, blocks, powers, etc. but lacks a certain something that I can't put my finger on. There is something off about the combat. Games like Chivalry, TERA, Smite, etc. all have very simple yet entertaining combat engines that I just don't get from Crowfall. Specifically from Chivalry, I think Artcraft should note blocking. Blocking in it's current state is pointless. No matter what you get hit, and the damage prevented when blocking still isn't enough to justify it. Chivalry has the right level of reaction time and accountability with the animations. With crowfall I think the animations are okay but distracting and not flashy enough to tell the player "Block now!". Say what you will about when there were indicators on the ground for powers, it worked. Look at Smite or Wildstar. Sure it might not look pretty, but it allows players to say "Hey get out of the way" a lot more than, "Is he about to hit? Idk, block?"

Timed blocks are okay For the big flashy attacks, but not regular mitigation of small attacks, they can deploy continuous blocking to deny and obstruct damage from the facing side, or block action attacks that stop damage while attacking.

 

Timed blocks are something offensive weapon users should struggle with, not shield bearers.

Edited by bahamutkaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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