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Combat - Comparisons and personal opinions.

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I don't want to play a boring slow moving medieval war simulator (which crowfall is not). In fact, the combat in crowfall is VERY arcadey, which I like. They fixed movement and the camera for the most part, all they need now is to work on the animation lock.

 

Right now I do not see move to counter move gameplay and it bothers me. I am a Shadowbane vet here who craved each and every fight. You could plan to do what power/spell/ability next based upon what the person you were fighting had just done. I do not get that feeling with the current combat in Crowfall.

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Right now I do not see move to counter move gameplay and it bothers me. I am a Shadowbane vet here who craved each and every fight. You could plan to do what power/spell/ability next based upon what the person you were fighting had just done. I do not get that feeling with the current combat in Crowfall.

That's because crowfall isn't a slow paced tab targeting game (even tho it's slower than I expect from an action game). You gotta think on your feet. It's like playing soccer and complaining that it isn't chess.

Edited by helix

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Right now I do not see move to counter move gameplay and it bothers me. I am a Shadowbane vet here who craved each and every fight. You could plan to do what power/spell/ability next based upon what the person you were fighting had just done. I do not get that feeling with the current combat in Crowfall.

I am becoming quite convinced that this is due to the inability to hinder the mobility of opponents. No staggers/flinches, no slow on hit, having an animation lock system without either of these things is bad.

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That's because crowfall isn't a slow paced tab targeting game (even tho it's slower than I expect from an action game). You gotta think on your feet. It's like playing soccer and complaining that it isn't chess.

 

 

The game does not have to be tab targeting to have combat more immerse then what is currently offered. The game can be fast and still offer some sort of speed decrease and or stamina decrease for being engaged and more options to plan out move to counter move. I am bothered with the animation lock system as well as the combat in general from my play experiences. The current combat design is not fun. 

Edited by nomadmerc

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The game does not have to be tab targeting to have combat more immerse then what is currently offered. The game can be fast and still offer some sort of speed decrease and or stamina decrease for being engaged and more options to plan out move to counter move. I am bothered with the animation lock system as well as the combat in general from my play experiences. The current combat design is not fun. 

 

I don't think things need to be slowed down any further.  People running is an issue and the devs are working on two (that I'm aware of) things to fix that.  One is a daze on non combat hits, the second is ability momentum.

 

To me the game feels like it has plenty of depth.  Things you want to avoid are often well telegraphed and have multiple counters.

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I don't think things need to be slowed down any further.  People running is an issue and the devs are working on two (that I'm aware of) things to fix that.  One is a daze on non combat hits, the second is ability momentum.

 

To me the game feels like it has plenty of depth.  Things you want to avoid are often well telegraphed and have multiple counters.

I've heard of the momentum thing but what is this 'daze on non combat hits'? I have not seen anything about that. Link?

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They could easily make the combat more tactical by reducing general mobility and enabling proper cavalry. If specialized chasers are available as counters to retreating, players will face a lot more dilemmas on how to engage and withdraw from combat.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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They could easily make the combat more tactical by reducing general mobility and enabling proper cavalry. If specialized chasers are available as counters to retreating, players will face a lot more dilemmas on how to engage and withdraw from combat.

 

I kind of agree, I still don't get why everyone needs a dash, there is other options for movement, it seems like in modern games if one class don't have a dash it is worthless, but everyone having a dash makes the gameplay style really limited.

 

And with the news on the Ranger having a lot of mobility the problem keeps getting worst, as more dashes there are most dashes there have to be, the moment you don't make a class with a dash now that class will be in a lot of problems.

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It's worse because they describe is projectile range as barely visible. So from the time they can see you all the way up to your functional range, they attack you with projectiles, using traps, obstructions, terrain, allies and structures to impede your advance, then they enter melee for burst type action, and if they succeed, they can chase and impede you before switching to ranged again to shoot you one more time in the back. Ammunition and difficulty are supposed to throttle that potential, but that is a stupidly diverse set of options.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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I kind of agree, I still don't get why everyone needs a dash, there is other options for movement, it seems like in modern games if one class don't have a dash it is worthless, but everyone having a dash makes the gameplay style really limited.

 

And with the news on the Ranger having a lot of mobility the problem keeps getting worst, as more dashes there are most dashes there have to be, the moment you don't make a class with a dash now that class will be in a lot of problems.

Classes that are less mobile should probably have attacks and defense mechanics that are stronger then.  Since this is group and team based it also puts responsibility on your group and team members to not leave you high and dry if you are in the less mobile class.  I feel this mobility issue comes down to balance mainly.  If a Ranger can dance and juke all around the battlefield they probably shouldn't have the strongest attacks or even as strong as the less mobile classes because that would lend itself to making Rangers OP.

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They could easily make the combat more tactical by reducing general mobility and enabling proper cavalry. If specialized chasers are available as counters to retreating, players will face a lot more dilemmas on how to engage and withdraw from combat.

 

I can guarantee you that large groups will utilize "cavalry" like tactics, just like in any every other large scale pvp game. Having group A crash straight on in, and group B circle around and flank them cutting off their retreat doesn't require specialized archetypes of any type, that's straight up strategy that has been applied in almost every game I've ever played.

 

However in smaller scale fights, the situation is this. You get whooped on, you have no choice but to run. Why? There is no healer there to keep you in the fight. That right there is going to be an issue. Getting healed once every 20 seconds by a legionnaire isn't enough atm. When I play champion, I usually have to play like a real pussai, cause once you commit, if the other team isn't incompetent, you're going to die quickly.

 

I'm not sure how forward momentum attacks are really going to help, but I do believe the real issue here is the animation locks. Your options are pretty limited, stand still attacking and getting wrecked with a potential small 20s (could be off by this, feels like 20s) burst healing to sustain you OR run around like a chicken with your head cut off and do nothing, while the enemy group is forced to wobble around following after you unable to really do anything because all their attacks make them stand still. All of this feels lame to me, and looks even lamer.

 

Now take that above mentioned scenario and multiply it by a factor of 100 in large scale fights. Low healing, high damage, limited mitigation tools, animation locks, fast ttk and uninspired death match like scrimmages. Fights are over quickly group vs. group in the hunger dome, I don't get any pleasure from them because they feel hollow. 

 

You'll get the crybabies and the uneducated crying about how healing ruins pvp games (it doesn't), but right now, crowfall NEEDS more healing. Healing isn't even hard to balance, it's been done in plenty of other games. You don't even need to put "back line" (cause it already is, legionnaires for the most part sit in the back if they're smart) healing in to the game. Other wise I might of just run around with my group of 1 champion, 2 confessors and legionnaire (which is a glorified fluffer at this point) and train targets to death, cause nobody is surviving that.

 

 

Totally off-topic but here comes the healing rant:

 

If I was going to remake the legionnaires healing ability, it would be 10-15s, introduce a healing co-efficiency in to the game (spirit works), and healing would place a debuff which makes healing from the same archetype less potent. So for example you get healed by legionnaire X, for 2000 health, if leggo x or another leggo heals you again within a 5-10s period of time, their heal will be significantly reduced (let's say 35-50% for argument sake). For further argument, let's call this debuff "Nature's Fatigue". Something similar for the druid, druid x heals, druid y heals, druid x is full potency, druid y is less effective due to the debuff.

 

Stacking leggos and druids would still be effective, but not AS effective as it could be. You could even have anti healing abilities like "Deep Wound" or "Disease" that reduces healing even further. You could even make it so when the healer heals himself, he only gets half of the potency, making the healer a legitimate and very possible target to bring down and limiting the "tank healer runs team around" type of play.

Edited by helix

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Right,so to summarize everyone wants a game with plenty of mobility but without tab-attack.

Some don't like dash,some don't like the animation lock and what i think what we can all agree on is that there is a need for a way to cancel skills,like by dodging or something.

 

First of all i'd like to get my two cents on this:i don't like TERA style combat;bunnyhopping around just isn't my thing,if i had to choose i would rather have a combat similar to chivalry.

Now,i haven't played the game yet,but from the plethora of videos around i can see that the combat is very slow/clunky;first of all thats because this is an alpha,i do believe it is already very impressive of the DEVs to get to this point while being so far from the release date,but i agree that i can't see where they want to go.

 

Where i would like for it to go is for a little mix up,not totally freedom of movement like Wildstar,but something close to GW2 combat.

While i never truly enjoyed GW2 pvp for plenty of reason the flow of a fight was very well done,you could auto-attack while moving while strong skill would be telegraphed by the movement and time needed to use them,and most skills would lock you in place while using them.Most importantly you could dodge to instantly interrupt the animation and get out of the way,altough that should be limited.

 

I am also personally stronly against the heavy use of dashing,i feel it would cheapen the fights.Mobility is fine,instant movement is not.

I can't wait for the 2.0 to see where they're going with combat,but overall i believe that combat should be more tactical and fairly static (not to the point of a dude bunnyhopping around while attacking but neither stuck there once combat starts) and that high power skills should indeed be very slow and predictable while fast and weak ones should be doable even while moving.

I don't really want to see a confessor dashing away everytime a melee class comes close while bombarding everyone,nor would i want a knight chargin in your face in milliseconds,maybe make sprinting more decisive during combat,that should add a lot of different options.

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The best combat for me is Darkfall fps true aim skills without any animation locks, but i know why they implement animation locks, to avoid lag on big battles and high server-client demand.

 

Apart animation locks i still think that true players skills should matter over everything, as they stated numerous times, if you are a bad player with a crappy aim, even with better gear you should lose a fight.

 

Dashing or any instant traveling movements should also be removed, no player skills at all, prefer positioning, blocking, parry and limited sprint as a main tactic in a fight.

Edited by kdchan

Archduchess Alice

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First of all i'd like to get my two cents on this:i don't like TERA style combat;bunnyhopping around just isn't my thing

Have you played Tera PvP? If you are jumping and anything even touches you, you get knocked down. There is no bunny hoping, those who try die, and if they don't die, it's due to their opponents being complete newbs.

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The best combat for me is Darkfall fps true aim skills without any animation locks, but i know why they implement animation locks, to avoid lag on big battles and high server-client demand.

 

Apart animation locks i still think that true players skills should matter over everything, as they stated numerous times, if you are a bad player with a crappy aim, even with better gear you should lose a fight.

 

Dashing or any instant traveling movements should also be removed, no player skills at all, prefer positioning, blocking, parry and limited sprint as a main tactic in a fight.

 

Perfect FPS style AIM is no the only parameter to determine skill, it is just the most important in FPS games, in other games such as MOBAs, AIM is just a small part of the skills a player needs, aim it is not that important, and I actually prefer that AIM is not that important, I am not into FPS anymore, and I don't feel the style fits well in MMORPGs where there is aoe skills with diferent patterns,etc.

 

A global elite in CS:GO, might be a silver player in LoL, while a Challenger in LoL might be a poorly made socksty CS:GO player, how do you decide which one is the most skilled player? Different games put diferent parameter for Skill, and I really appreciate that small and fast projectile AIM is not on here, because it makes no sense.

 

And about being able to move while attacking, well, I rather have animation lock, chivalry for example, the legs move independetly from the torso and arms, which makes no sense, when you attack you go with the whole body, it is true that you could do some attacks while moving, but usually you should stay in position or do a movement according to an attack.

 

If you are shooting, you can shoot and move at the same time, but still you would move slower for the extra aim, and if you want to be the most precise possible you would be still.

 

This doesn't mean that I think the Crowfall gameplay is ok, I think it needs to improve, but animatino lock is not a problem, BAD animation lock is a problem.

 

About the dahses, sadly I don't think they will remove them, but I think they could lower the range and adapt them to be more than dashes, and they should use the physics more, like the Knight dash.

 

For example, the confessor, instead of the current dash, it could be a dash with far less range but that produce a small knocback on enemies in the opposite direction of the dash, meaning that you should do it with the intention not only to escape but to hit your enemies to create more distance between you, making the dash more skilled.

 

But I would reduce the range of all the dashes currently in game at least a 40%. I might do a suggestion post about this with some ideas for dashes that I have, but anyway is hard to tell how it would change the current gameplay, I really want to check all the changes in 2.0.

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Have you played Tera PvP? If you are jumping and anything even touches you, you get knocked down. There is no bunny hoping, those who try die, and if they don't die, it's due to their opponents being complete newbs.

I must admit i have not.I have played tera just up to level 21 before putting it down,on the other hand i played plenty of vindictus,so i do know how this kind of combat works.

I have no doubt that it can be fun and that it is challenging,but this kind of playstyle just isn't for me,the fact that the attacks "drag" me around is what i don't like about it.

 

It is also from there that i started to hate what i think is an overuse of animation locks,it felt like my freedom of movement was robbed;i could certainly plan my attacks to move to certain places using skills,but why not just add a dodge to dodge instead of attacking in another direction? Doesn't make sense to me.

Animation lock and even just straight out rooting in place is fine when you're doing a big move,because not only it makes sense,but it also add "weight" to the move,you would think twice before using a damaging skill if you know it takes away your freedom of movement and makes you vulnerable to enemy attacks.

Its perfectly fine to make attacks in movement weaker or make only the basic attacks doable while walking/running around,i don't think you're supposed to cast a meteor strike while dancing and flying around or capable of doing a sudden heavy swing while running backwards.

 

I'm the kind of person who loves strategic plays,who prefers the smart approach instead of the faster keyboard;i'm a believer of properly done ambushes should win over equipment or even skill,because taking someone or an entire group by surprise or forcing them in that situation is a skill in itself.

That is why i want freedom of movement in Crowfall (without OP dashes plz).

 

Edit: Also yeah,can't wait to see what they have in store for us in 2.0,the whole having an object to conquer/defend should give birth to lots of different plays.

Edited by Gonfalone

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This is an interesting article from Syp on the biobreak blog which touches on some of the things that make combat impressive in MMO's.  I don't agree with everything, but certainly responsiveness is a huge factor for almost all of us.  I also agree that standing still to cast is irksome. Crowfall continues to have some issues with both responsiveness and with mobility.  

 

 

https://biobreak.wordpress.com/2016/03/23/8-factors-that-make-or-break-mmo-combat-systems/

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This is an interesting article from Syp on the biobreak blog which touches on some of the things that make combat impressive in MMO's. I don't agree with everything, but certainly responsiveness is a huge factor for almost all of us. I also agree that standing still to cast is irksome. Crowfall continues to have some issues with both responsiveness and with mobility.

 

 

https://biobreak.wordpress.com/2016/03/23/8-factors-that-make-or-break-mmo-combat-systems/

It's spot on IMO. Right now CF is some kind of bastardization of the new and old. It's unfortunate because I can't get my friend who spent 5k on the game, nor his brother who spent 1k nor my other friend who spent 200 to even continue testing the game. They were sold on the game based on the Kickstarter video, admittedly perhaps not the best choice since it was a prototype. Either way, I think the Kickstarter video combat looked fun, what we got now isn't god awful, but isn't all that great either. We got a long way to go, and I hope they iterate through combat all the way up to the end. Edited by helix

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It's spot IMO. Right now CF is some kind of bastardization of the new and old. It's unfortunate because I can't get my friend who spent 5k on the game, nor his brother who spent 1k nor my other friend who spent 200 to even continue testing the game. They were sold on the game based on the Kickstarter video, admittedly perhaps not the best choice since it was a prototype. Either way, I think the Kickstarter video combat looked fun, what we got now isn't god awful, but isn't all that great either. We got a long way to go, and I hope they iterate through combat all the way up to the end.

 

I really hope the devs understand this.... people are literally QUITTING the game they spent lots of money on because combat is so bad. Most people will not come on the forums to give feedback or even complain. They just leave.

 

So many people are tired of the hungerdome... how sad is that. Combat should have been so fun and good we would've wanted to play in a boring grey box. Instead people are heading for the hills.

Edited by Ziz

MOkvLlm.png

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I really hate being the voice of reason and I don't appreciate it when you guys put me into that corner, but in the words of over-the-hill quarterback Aaron Rodgers, "RELAX".

 

We are still in Pre-Alpha!  Of course people are going to get a little worn out on very unpolished combat.  Do you guys understand that games take time to develop?  Did you think months would feel like seconds? 

 

What I see is them steadily adding new archetypes and other aspects of the game to make it an actual game... We have Siege Perilous right now, we have the ranger freshly added... With it they are adding new types of ability interactions in their game... these things take time. 

 

There's a reason pre-alpha is pre-alpha, it is very ugly, unpolished, rough around the edges, it is supposed to be a test, not a super fun experience, though they have tried to make it a little more fun with their wrapper. 

 

Let's put it this way, if their pre-alpha was just the keep itself and everyone just mindlessly slapping each other about, that would be par for the course for a pre-alpha.  We have so much more going on right now. 

 

Newer games have catered to and conditioned people towards shorter attention spans... You are expecting way too much from a pre-alpha... if you are bored right now go play a released game for a while.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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