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First look: Ranger powers & UI - Official discussion thread

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With energy starting at zero and melee attacks using energy, how will early game ranger play out come release? Assuming the ranger will start with low (or no) arrows.

 

meh... forced to play a different archetype for a while until you have enough arrows...

 

should be fine looking at the big picture

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Agreed.  All PvP games seem hell-bent on having stealth, but it's never implemented in a meaningful way.  Invisibility stealth mechanics are just so boring and not at all conducive to PvP: quite the opposite.

 

I was hopeful CF would try to break the mold here...alas.  Hopefully the duration and cooldown will be very short and very long, respectively, so people need at least an iota of tactic.

 

I agree. Would have been perfectly happy to learn there was no stealth in the game at all. I've always found the playstyle cowardly and boring to play as and against, and the kind of people that generally gravitate to those kind of classes tend to be exactly the kind of people I don't like.

 

I don't mind it as long as there are realistic tools to counter stealth because then at least there's viable counterplay. That, or moderately diminish the viability of stealth as a delivery tool.

 

Luckily the rogue archetype in games has matured a lot over the years... I can't recall anything recent that's as ridiculous as WoW's ancient and infamous stun-lock death dances. Still frustrating to be forced into an engagement on a rogue's terms and then just watch them stealth away when they start losing though... still seems to be a pretty common design choice for the archetype. Hopefully not one repeated here. Stealth should be a meaningful decision with pros and cons.

 

We'll see I guess.


Wearily do I sleep eternity away.

Without fear or haste, on bedding made of solitude and silence.

 

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The Ranger sounds like a serious contender for the upcoming Siege Perilous.  The confessor is a good example.

 

Hopefully I'll be able to use her, shooting slow and steady shots is a fantasy I fancy.

 

I wonder if we will get to blow up walls into voxels in the Siege, it would be such a missed opportunity.


How Can Mounts Add to the Crowfall Experience?  Caravans, Hunting Boars, and more.

 

How Complex can Mining be in Crowfall?  Mining difficulty, fatigue, infrastructure.

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I agree. Would have been perfectly happy to learn there was no stealth in the game at all. I've always found the playstyle cowardly and boring to play as and against, and the kind of people that generally gravitate to those kind of classes tend to be exactly the kind of people I don't like.

 

I don't mind it as long as there are realistic tools to counter stealth because then at least there's viable counterplay. That, or moderately diminish the viability of stealth as a delivery tool.

 

Luckily the rogue archetype in games has matured a lot over the years... I can't recall anything recent that's as ridiculous as WoW's ancient and infamous stun-lock death dances. Still frustrating to be forced into an engagement on a rogue's terms and then just watch them stealth away when they start losing though... still seems to be a pretty common design choice for the archetype. Hopefully not one repeated here. Stealth should be a meaningful decision with pros and cons.

 

We'll see I guess.

Stealth adds a strategic dimension to pvp because you can't just bottleneck or do the Hillsbrad shuffle. It breaks static situations and forces 360 degree awareness.

 

That being said, I suspect that most people don't hate stealthers for strategic picks or siege infiltration in mass pvp. They hate them because they are bored soloers alpha striking solo resource collectors. Hard to allow the good part without the bad part, although if you are interested in in-depth thoughts on this the Camelot Unchained website has a great essay.

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So, of course i'm going to weigh in on this topic. Its one pretty near and dear to my heart. You might be surprised where I land on this.

 

After taking in the whole of the tech and range of tactical abilities Rangers are bringing to the table at this point, its no wonder that they couldn't in good conscience give the stealth tech in its entirety to them. That makes logical sense. As you may have noted, at least one post indicated that the range of skills the rangers have access to is twice as many as others (and could have potentially been three times as many considering a full stealth bar... more on this later...).

 

So look, I get it. 

 

I think the inherent problem with designing a class like the Ranger is that ultimately they need this class to fit into a few roles, and ultimately with Assassin on the horizon Stealth wasn't essential to the vision of this archetype. 

 

What does concern me, however, was what was previously offered up for the Ranger was the idea of their mastery of "Traps". The lack of a mobile Stealth option for Rangers really limits their mobility here taken into account their mastery. So in my opinion the scope of the Ranger has been opened up a bit too widely. Right now it feels like a mishmash of various melee and ranged issues. If your class only has access to a stationary hide ability, then the implementation of Rangers effectively makes them "campers".

 

I can't utilize traps effectively in the middle of combat, or else they are little more then grenades (similar to how GW2 implemented the concept of traps. If their is no preparation of the battlefield before hand, which is really where I saw this archetype going when they indicated a "trap speciality", then this class is already pigeonholed in to how it will be used in most battlefields. I would rather the powers be retooled to focus on this mastery of a physical space. More traps, less melee powers. I just think a ranger should be exceedingly good at one thing (ranged arrow combat) and few options at all in the melee area. His melee powers are effectively a toolbar for a range of trap options.

 

On the topic of traps, lets either rename them to grenades, or actually force players to plant these before a battle begins. Let them last longer, but cap on the amount of them. A timer of 1 minute? That's hardly a trap. If you see an opponent hes probably a minute away. Thats really hard to call a trap when someone knows you are there. This concept of "traps" is probably what bothers me the most right now about the Ranger, not its limited ability to Stealth.

 

At best I see the Ranger role as its proposed right now being used in one of two ways (and this is not a bad thing necessarily);

 

1.) I'm really good at camping POI's and denying resources to people, I can setup traps and camp near by from a high point of view and cause considerable damage at range before closing the gap and finishing you off.

 

2.) I'm a melee warrior that you can't run away from, because if you do, I'll just shoot you in the back as you try it.

 

3.) I'm just in the background of a major battle, pinging arrows at the other side, until I run out and then I'm a melee "eh" character for the rest of the fight.

 

Hide sorta plays into #1, and its a role I would gladly want on my side. Most of this game will revolve around controlling the battlefield. Preparation before a battle begins is where I see this archetype doing exceedingly well at. I would have liked to see more trap options though, as unfortunately one trap does not make you a "trap expert" (unless of course no one else has traps letting this one win by default).

 

I would have liked to see a concession, however, where Rangers get Stealth (mobility + hide), but DO NOT get access to a third bar of abilities. That would make logical sense to me to be in the Assassins wheelhouse. Yet, the ability to gain Stealth via a Discipline Rune is a happy compromise I'm willing to take (I would also accept: a promotion role dedicated to swapping hide with Stealth but no additional powers toolbar).

 

My organization has always planned on some Archetypes not having access to stealth, and accepting players interested in those archetypes as long as they understood they would be required to take the necessary discipline option that granted Stealth to them. Not a big deal here. Considering the range of options given to the Ranger archetype; its a seemingly agile and flexible griefing platform that given a small ability to move while concealed (with the discipline rune) makes me greatly excited to see it in action (and to include it's services in my guilds repertoire).

 

Note: To the Devs, I would make sure you revisit the front page of your website and re-categorize the specialty for Rangers from "Specialist: Stealth" to "Specialist: Hide", because its pretty deceiving at this point to indicate anything else. And yes I'm bitter. :P

 

P.S.S: If people want to debate the merits of full-movement invisible Stealth again... /deep sigh.

Edited by scree

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Don't forget about Disciplines! Yes it would cost you a very valuable slot, but the option will be there.

 

When you say don't forget, you meant, by the way? Its not like we have a list of discipline runes and what archetypes can equip them... or did I miss something?

 

Also, you mentioned one potential promotion class and its impact for the Ranger, why not the other two options? :)


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When you say don't forget, you meant, by the way? Its not like we have a list of discipline runes and what archetypes can equip them... or did I miss something?

 

Also, you mentioned one potential promotion class and its impact for the Ranger, why not the other two options? :)

 

I read it as the trade off argument.  If you want to play a ranger that can move in stealth as opposed to just standing still hidden then it will take one of your three of four discipline runes.  This means less range skill, or melee, or werewolf, or crafting arrows and so on.

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When you say don't forget, you meant, by the way? Its not like we have a list of discipline runes and what archetypes can equip them... or did I miss something?

 

Yea, I suppose that is more of a "by the way" than a "don't forget."

 

Either way, it looks like Rangers will have access to a mobile Stealth if they choose to build that way.


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With energy starting at zero and melee attacks using energy, how will early game ranger play out come release? Assuming the ranger will start with low (or no) arrows.

 

They start in ranged mode and are currently regenerating 50 a tick on a 750 pool. By the time you have control of the character you are already at 200. Rangers will have some access to to making some starter arrows. (I'm shifting a good portion of their overall power budget to the arrows so we can have a decent spread on arrow crafting)

 

 

When you say don't forget, you meant, by the way? Its not like we have a list of discipline runes and what archetypes can equip them... or did I miss something?

 

Also, you mentioned one potential promotion class and its impact for the Ranger, why not the other two options? :)

 

We haven't posted a list yet, but it has always been an intent of ours to sprinkle some of the archetype stuff around so people could customize.

Just looking at the ranger skill tree (I know folks have posted it around the web) and reading the tooltips should give you lots of insight into how each of the promotions skews.

 

As for your larger post, you are correct in that the Ranger was first billed as more of a stealthy, trap placing sapper. That is where we started, and with what we have right now, it wasn't really fun. The way we are building Crowfall and putting it in front of all you backers so early doesn't lend itself to building features/classes and putting it on the shelf for months awaiting the rest of the pieces that make that feature fun to be built. (This is vastly different than typical MMO development where you build lots of features and slam it all together in the last year and then try and "find the fun")

 

In Hunger Dome and SP there just isn't a large preparatory time to align with the idea of setting up a minefield around the keep and building defenses like you would if it was a structure you owned in a Campaign. So having a character who sneaks around planting traps, just didn't make sense right now. It won't make sense for another 2 or 3 major milestones. People might have gotten excited about the idea of the Ranger as a stealthy sapper, but going the route we did should make her fun in both SP and the Hunger Dome.

 

It is much more likely that by the time we get to the Assassin that will also align with Campaigns coming online, so we will have a use for a stealthy sapper type (promotion class more than likely).

 

I'm pretty happy where we landed on the Ranger, the melee kit shaped up really nice and the ranged kit is lots of fun if you can master it. I've seen Confessors making kill shots with Meteor Purge from the Treasure Room to the top of the entrance gate on a moving target, without a soft target system. I can't wait to see what folks do with the Ranger. (Or the even slower firing, longer distance of the Stalker)


Thomas Blair
ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.
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I noticed in the pictured UI that the arrow counter has 2 digits that read 00 so I have to assume 99 arrows can be loaded at one time in the quiver.

 

Which means when your quiver is depleted the inventory bag has to be opened to reload the quiver, or every time you want to change the damage type it's open the inventory bag and swap the arrows in and out of the quiver during a combat situation.

 

99 arrow quiver capacity seems low, and it's a shame to have such a clean UI with a unsightly inventory bag in the middle of the screen whenever I'm in combat because skills burn through 3, 5, or 10 arrows at a time, and I'm constantly reloading.

 

Please tell me I misunderstand the capacity of the quiver, or better yet that I can designate bag slots to a key press to swap inventoried arrows in and out of the quiver without having to leave my bag open to drag and drop arrows during combat or a siege.

 

I know this is a minor thing but I hate building macros for something that should be on-board functionality. Can we get arrow swap from inventory to quiver with a key press? Or three quiver slots we can pre-load and swap between with the scroll wheel? 

 

If I misunderstand and the quiver holds five hundred to a thousand arrows well then I guess... never mind. 

 

 

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I noticed in the pictured UI that the arrow counter has 2 digits that read 00 so I have to assume 99 arrows can be loaded at one time in the quiver.

 

Which means when your quiver is depleted the inventory bag has to be opened to reload the quiver, or every time you want to change the damage type it's open the inventory bag and swap the arrows in and out of the quiver during a combat situation.

 

99 arrow quiver capacity seems low, and it's a shame to have such a clean UI with a unsightly inventory bag in the middle of the screen whenever I'm in combat because skills burn through 3, 5, or 10 arrows at a time, and I'm constantly reloading.

 

Please tell me I misunderstand the capacity of the quiver, or better yet that I can designate bag slots to a key press to swap inventoried arrows in and out of the quiver without having to leave my bag open to drag and drop arrows during combat or a siege.

 

I know this is a minor thing but I hate building macros for something that should be on-board functionality. Can we get arrow swap from inventory to quiver with a key press? Or three quiver slots we can pre-load and swap between with the scroll wheel? 

 

If I misunderstand and the quiver holds five hundred to a thousand arrows well then I guess... never mind. 

 

That's an infinity symbol not a 00. (Those screenshots were taken in developer mode) We haven't tuned stack size yet, but the goal isn't to make it feel like you have to mess with your inventory constantly.


Thomas Blair
ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.
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"We sorely have a need for a “runner killer” role in our playtests and the Hunger Dome, which is why we are placing this on the Ranger now."

 

I don't understand how you can acknowledge a problem and then "solve" it by giving a half-assed band-aid solution to just 1 archetype.

 

Wouldn't it be more in your interest to come up with an actual global solution so that all or atleast the majority of archetypes would be able to be "runner killers" in some way or form?

 

I'm really hoping this is just a temporary solution.

That's kind of ridiculous, specialization is necessary for good strategic and tactical gameplay.

 

The problem is that they entered Centaur as a melee support instead of the Cavalry it clearly aught to be. Quiet honestly, with ranged attacks, melee attacks, terrain obstruction, traps and hiding, Ranger is overloaded as hell, they'll move behaviours later, but I can't help feeling like Ranger should have been done last with Templar, after Stalker and Assassin defined the primary use of the features.

 

Beyond that, until they implement friendly fire and large team arrangements, these projectile methods feel like an exercise in futility. It doesn't actually work until it works with the expected features.

Edited by bahamutkaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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I find a lot of contradictory styles of gameplay in the current ranger description.

 

When I did read about Hide, I thought, nice so you can set up traps and wait, but then the only trap that they showed only last for 1min in the ground? It makes not sense.

 

Not only that, but the power that creates a defence for the Rangers makes no sense, you already said that the ranger has a lot of mobility, why would you stay still in a position when you are mobile and can just dodge and keep moving and kiting, it is contradictory, if the Ranger was more focused on traps and positioning, then it would make sense, you set up a few traps, set up your defense, and if someone comes close you have the traps + your melee stance to fight them, but beeing too mobile makes the trap and the hide style useless, there is already a lot of dashes that will make the trap style gameplay hard enough (unless the traps are actually good).

 

I don't know, I hope that there will be disciplines and runes that allow for a more focused trap style, but with the already excesive mobility I don't think no one will go for it, in a PVP game mobility outplays every other type of mechanics most of the times.

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I will say it like, after the long read, RANGER LOOKS TOTALLY DISAPPOINTING. 

When other archetypes where coming out I was like ''that's nice, oo change form'' and so on.

 

Here ?

 

BS AMMO mechanic. You talked A LOT about balance in the news. Hope you are adding ammunition to all other characters right ? No way you are gonna make 2(Stalker and Ranger) be only 2 Archetypes that tie combat ammo to crafting system as its seems stupid right ?

 

BS STEALTH mechanic breaks after movement ? Great, so awesome that hopefully, it will be passive that activates 1 sec after ranger goes full stop That was sarcasm. Breaks on movement... what a genious thought about such resolution ?

 

BS SWAP mechanic. 1) Complain about archetype being to versatile > add melee to it to be more versatile > complain again > remove stealth as archetype is  ''to versatile"

 

 

Tl ; dr  : From pure theorycraft ( no numbers / video / gameplay)  its seems as worst ideas cuddled together and thrown to Ranger Archetype.

Untill I do see gameplay from Ranger it's going waaaayyy down till last position of ''want to play'' list.

Edited by Naur

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They deliberately stated direct balance isn't a design intent from the beginning, and explained that Ranger was proving to be overloaded because it's featuring mechanisms that belong elsewhere, your completely misguided Naur


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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The first question that we tackled was “Ammo: unlimited or a resource?” We decided that we really liked the idea of ammo being an expendable resource as this ties it nicely to other systems (harvesting, crafting, etc.) It also gives us another vector to differentiate playstyle, which is good because we really don’t want all of our archetypes to feel like the same character with a different wrapper.

 

Thanks a lot for it, i really hate infinite ammo that come out from nowhere. No risk vs reward.

 

Now you have to be carefully on how much arrows you want to shoots, no more spamming machineguns bowers, also you can loot arrows from a deceased enemy or friedly corpse once you are out of them in the battlefield (in the full loot rulesets), mean more tactics. :)

 

Will be amazing.

Edited by kdchan

Archduchess Alice

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