Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Reider

Stealth/Hide mechanics discussion

Recommended Posts

With the new Ranger Hide mechanic, we have now more information to talk about how stealth mechanics will work.

 

This discussion is focused on how you might want that mechanics to work, and how it should be balanced according to the diferent advantages and disadvantages that those mechanics allow.

 

I will separate my opinnions on Hide mechanics and Stealth mechanic.

 

Hide mechanic is the one from the Ranger, you need to stay stationary to be able to be invisible, Stealth mechanic as explain in the Ranger post, allows you to move while invisible.

 

As far as we know, there is no actual advantage on Hide over Stealth, except maybe that you have a specific power stealth tray that is activated when you are on stealth, this can be either an advantage or disadvantage, all depends on the powers.

 

Now, I think Hide should have some extra advantages, the first one that I think would be that Hide should be fully invisible, while Stealth should be not, I think it should be like in Starcraft/Heroes of the Storm, where you can actually see the player while stealthed.

 

Something like this:

 

20140515051630a0dsb5wv760jg7oi.jpg

 

 

Next, I think the hide mechanic should have an either damage reduction on the hit that reveals you, or a number of hits needed for the enemy to reveal you, this making harder for a random hit to reveal your position, but if people have saw you enter in the Hide state then they can go an attack a few times to reveal you, while Stealth should be revealed on first hit, since they can move around while stealthed.

 

Basicly, I don't like the idea of someone beeing fully invisible while beeing able to freely move while no one can notice him and is only vulnerable to random hits, I think a stealth mechanic should have some active counterplay than just a random lucky hit that revealed the guy.

 

Another options for Stealth would be that when you get to close to an enemy, this gets some kind of warning. I take this idea from League of Legends where Rengar has this mechanic, other option would be that when you are to close to an enemy this is able to actually see you (Evelynn in LoL has this mechanic).

 

There is a lot of options to balance stealth mechanics, fully invibisible mechanic without restriction is not a good idea, at least I don't think it is, it tends to make the character overpowered.

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Without full invisibility, what is the point of tracking/anti-stealth abilities?

 

To improve that abilities, and add other abilities to that.

 

Lets say that Stealth would allow you to move inv, but slightly warping light so anyone could see you, but as you improve those tracking/anti-stealth skills it gets a bit more clear that warping.

 

Or for the Hide mechanic that I propose, instead of needing 5 hits to reveal a character, you would only need 2 or 3.

 

We actually don't know how the tracking/anti-stealth abilities will work, so maybe it is viable to have a fully invisible archetype while not beeing too op, we actually don't know, I am just showing a concern that I have with fully invisible stealth mechanics, and giving some personal ideas for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Arkade, it does. That's why this "predator-stealth" can't work. Full Invisibility allows them to remove the characters position from your clients knowledge.

 

The real question out there still is whether or not an invisible person is removed from being "bumped" into. If they can be bumped into, then technically your client has to know my position (which puts us back at square one).

 

Usually people who don't want full invisibility stealth don't want it, because the class/archetype they plan on playing wouldn't have any natural counters to it. It sort of goes against the philosophy of the game, where every archetype and player potentially brings something useful and unique to the game. Take for example the idea that Crafters will really have to dedicate a good portion of their training time to compete on the open markets. You can't just casually level crafting skills (At least at launch) and compete with dedicated crafters. This speciality is important because it allows for players to feel needed and like a special snowflake.

 

For too long games have homogenized the gaming world, allowing everyone to do everything expertly (or nerfing the advantage till it wasn't desirable anymore). Stealth and Anti-Stealth characters will bring something unique to this MMO, and that's something to be celebrated. 


Obsidian-ForumSignature.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The real question out there still is whether or not an invisible person is removed from being "bumped" into. If they can be bumped into, then technically your client has to know my position (which puts us back at square one).

 

I wonder how they'll do it. They already talked about how the characters, depending on the armor they wear, would not always be completely silent when they move during stealth mode. If it's still what's planned, it could mean that the position from which the sound is emitted is known to the other clients.

 

Also, in the recent update about Ranger it's written "Stealth is a mode that renders you invisible until you attack or take a damaging hit." I guess that if other players can damage the characters that are in stealth mode, the client of those players would have to receive the information about the position of the stealth character.

Edited by courant101

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, in the recent update about Ranger it's written "Stealth is a mode that renders you invisible until you attack or take a damaging hit." I guess that if other players can damage the characters that are in stealth mode, the client of those players would have to receive the information about the position of the stealth character.

Nope, the client (of the attacker) sends projectile infos to the server (if ranged, for example) and then the damage is calculated by the server itself, and it knows if someone is invisible there. The collision of 2 chars, with at least one of them invisible, is instead client-sided and it may be solved by removing the collision with stealthed chars or, better scenario, by making them visible when they're too close.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

y9tj8G5.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For now, in these tests, it is fine because invisibility will be dispelled by damage, thus the limited space will allow Confessors to more or less spam areas clean. At launch, however, Stalkers and likely anti-stealth disciplines will exist, thus invisibility of stealth is fine so long as there are those who exist and specialize into searching these stealthers out. It is also okay because stealth/invisibility is not a clean disengagement since you won't be able to use such during combat. Thus anti-stealthers will only prevent being taken by surprised, not necessary to avoid being defeated by ambush.

 

tl;dr Invisibility is not a problem because it is not horribly unbalanced in combat and will have considerable counters both during the test [theoretically] and at launch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder how they'll do it. They already talked about how the characters, depending on the armor they wear, would not always be completely silent when they move during stealth mode. If it's still what's planned, it could mean that the position from which the sound is emitted is known to the other clients.

 

Also, in the recent update about Ranger it's written "Stealth is a mode that renders you invisible until you attack or take a damaging hit." I guess that if other players can damage the characters that are in stealth mode, the client of those players would have to receive the information about the position of the stealth character.

If I am knowing JTodd, we will have some re-iteration of the Shadowbane stealth/hide/reveal/track metagame.  Stealth and hide are full invisibility, you cannot see them unless they attack or move in the case of hide, or fail in a steal attempt.  There was a track function that brought up a list of players (by name) within tracking distance (lots of /who searches to determine class/archetypes and threat), selecting one put up a yellow arrow on the ground next to your toon that showed only the direction of that players position (if the arrow spun around you quickly then she was obviously very nearby.  The scout class had a "reveal" skill that would pop invisibility of hide/stealthed players within 50 yds.  Without a scout you were sol vs stealthers who (if thieves) could peek in your bags and steal stuff (chance of fail/reveal).  I think there was a computation of stealth/hide skill vs reveal skill.  With collision and free aim I suppose you could swing your weapon around and if it hit a stealther it would reveal (the dumb stealther.)


6FUI4Mk.jpg

                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whatever ACE has to do to keep information about stealthed toons off the client computers of other players, it'll be worth it. Cuz hacks.

 

Having said that, every basic archetype needs some way to possibly reveal a stealthed toon if he's sure of a location or just gets lucky.

If game mechanics require normal melee attacks to already "know" the target is there to hit it, fine but some power should be capable of damaging invisible toons.

Champion's hurlbat is a ranged attack, so they should be covered.

Surely melee AoE attacks will record damage to all in range on the server, thus breaking stealth for adjacent toons.

It should be comical to watch players occasionally lash out in a spinning attack for no obvious reason.


I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nope, the client (of the attacker) sends projectile infos to the server (if ranged, for example) and then the damage is calculated by the server itself, and it knows if someone is invisible there. The collision of 2 chars, with at least one of them invisible, is instead client-sided and it may be solved by removing the collision with stealthed chars or, better scenario, by making them visible when they're too close.

 

Let's say that a confessor is casting fireballs all around him, and that one of the fireballs hits a stealth character.

 

On the confessor client, does the fireball stop its course when it hits the stealth player? If it's the case and the client doesn't get information about the position of the stealth player, would it mean that when the fireball hits, the information would first comes from the stealth player who received the damage, then sent to the servers, then to the confessor's client and the client would need to visually represent the fireball hitting the location of the stealth player, but with the delays caused by latency and server/client calculations?

 

On the stealth client, the fireball is hitting it at time=0s, and if clients don't receive info on stealth players, on confessor's client the fireball would still be in the air at time=0s, and would register the hit at time=0.5s, so the fireball would either 1) appear to travel farther and then explode at stealth player location 2) appear to travel farther and explode at the position it was when the client registered the hit 3) not explode at all on confessor client but explode on stealth client.

 

edit: ok I've reread the messages posted here and if I understand correctly, the stealth characters can be damaged by other players only if it's first "revealed" using anti-stealth mechanics. So a stealth character could not get hit by projectiles if the player isn't detected by other clients first.

Edited by courant101

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1) appear to travel farther and then explode at stealth player location 2) appear to travel farther and explode at the position it was when the client registered the hit 3) not explode at all on confessor client but explode on stealth client.

 

You're right on (1) & (2). That's what happened on Darkfall many times, even without stealth characters, due to very fast combat.

 

Attacker shoots the projectile.. but sometimes the movement of the target is too fast and hasn't yet been received by the attacker client, so he sees an explosion that didn't really happen. On the other side, if the server finds a collision that the client hasn't predicted (again, because of "lag"), the attacker client will display the projectile moving forward and then an explosion at a certain point of its trajectory. While to the "defender" everything appears to be normal, aka he sees the projectile coming to his face.

 

In reality even if the attacker sees his projectile moving forwards, it really hasn't because the server knows it has stopped at a certain point.

And that's why MMORPGs can get away with non-instantaneous action combat.. FPS games with uber-fast projectiles require much lower latency and are forced with 10-20 players maximum on the same server.

 

Look at this example from DF... even if it's very low quality and fast, you may notice that there are 2 players shooting at each other at the same moment, and both projectiles are seen moving past the objective and then exploding. When they do explode, the projectile is finally removed from the client:

 

Nk7eet2.gif

Edited by Fenris DDevil

y9tj8G5.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Revealing isn't as essential in a manual action games because stealth doesn't stop any attacks from hitting you. All it does is make you hard to hit.

 

An easy way to make stealth naturally interact without unique counter mechanisms is to simply base it on distance and facing. Your invisible as long as your far enough.

 

From there they can create several scenarios where distance is impacted by facing, and greater stealth or detection skill increases or decreases the distance you remain invisible. Or even the width of your facing detection.

 

Something like a Stalker with stealth counters could have a shading mechanism that creates a distortion where invisible characters are, have wider detection windows in front of them, or better detection in all directions.

 

Stealth itself can be more interactive that way it isn't a simple positive and negative system. They could reduce detection by not moving, approach from behind to stay undetected, and even circumvent Stalkers if their cautious enough.

 

With these mechanisms every class can find a stealthed unit simply by closing distance and facing them.

 

I'm more interested in what else Assassin will bring as a Fae and not just their stealth aspect.

Edited by bahamutkaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why do devs keep trying to shoehorn stealth into every MMO when it's always a terrible mechanic that ruins the game? Invisibility is broken overpowered and will always be abused.

 

Solo roaming in Shadowbane devolved into Scouts and Thieves. In GW2 90% of the solo people you ran into were thieves or newbs who didn't know they should have rolled a thief. Blade & Soul open world is overrun with scummoners and assassins abusing stealth. Archeage solo roaming was 100% stealthers. The list goes on forever and the failure never ends. Stealth allows the class that has it to almost guarantee they will either win or draw. That is so insanely stupid that I don't know how devs haven't figured it out after 20 years of evidence from thousands of MMOs.

Edited by caffynated

OJN1n7E.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why do devs keep trying to shoehorn stealth into every MMO when it's always a terrible mechanic that ruins the game? Invisibility is broken overpowered and will always be abused.

 

Solo roaming in Shadowbane devolved into Scouts and Thieves. In GW2 90% of the solo people you ran into were thieves or newbs who didn't know they should have rolled a thief. Blade & Soul open world is overrun with scummoners and assassins abusing stealth. Archeage solo roaming was 100% stealthers. The list goes on forever and the failure never ends. Stealth allows the class that has it to almost guarantee they will either win or draw. That is so insanely stupid that I don't know how devs haven't figured it out after 20 years of evidence from thousands of MMOs.

 

While i can understand the worry about stealth i don't see a reason to remove it.It is only a broken mechanic if you don't give a way to counter it.You are not supposed to go around alone with a knight or any other class without anti-stealth abilities and expect people to leave you alone.

 

It has already been explained that stealth archetypes will be overall weaker and won't win in a direct confrontation but WILL win if you have no way to unstealth them,wich is the point of the stalker.

The only reason one should go out alone in this type of game would be either to scout or to counter scout,tough i will admit this will give stealthers quite the advantage in the early game.

 

They still have not explained how tracking will work in Crowfall,so i don't think we have a way to judge anything,but you can be sure that they won't remove it.

Why instead don't you try to come up with an idea or suggestion to improve it? This is what this topic is for after all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While i can understand the worry about stealth i don't see a reason to remove it.It is only a broken mechanic if you don't give a way to counter it.You are not supposed to go around alone with a knight or any other class without anti-stealth abilities and expect people to leave you alone.

 

It has already been explained that stealth archetypes will be overall weaker and won't win in a direct confrontation but WILL win if you have no way to unstealth them,wich is the point of the stalker.

The only reason one should go out alone in this type of game would be either to scout or to counter scout,tough i will admit this will give stealthers quite the advantage in the early game.

 

They still have not explained how tracking will work in Crowfall,so i don't think we have a way to judge anything,but you can be sure that they won't remove it.

Why instead don't you try to come up with an idea or suggestion to improve it? This is what this topic is for after all.

 

You realize you're arguing against stealth here, right? Everyone who doesn't have stealth or reveal (the majority of classes) are never allowed to go anywhere alone. Do you not see how bad that game design is?


OJN1n7E.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You realize you're arguing against stealth here, right? Everyone who doesn't have stealth or reveal (the majority of classes) are never allowed to go anywhere alone. Do you not see how bad that game design is?

 

I do not think so,thats what stealth based classes are for.It add difficulty to roaming and makes groups necessary.

Whats more its not like you need to have a single class with tracking or anti-stealth abilities,you can give some other more soft skills that reveals hidden players with long cooldowns.

You could give stealthed players a debuff when they go out of it that doesn't make it fast to them go back in.

You can make tons of mechanics that make stealth work better or in entirely different ways,and while i was always on the receiving end of sudden attacks i enjoy the diversity and the tactics it adds to a game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...