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Helix

Healing is important and absolutely necessary

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TL;DR Minimal healing is lame, promotes lame game play, hurts certain archetypes, lowers TTK and cheapens fights.

 

Re-posted from the test forums, cause no one reads that poorly made socks.

 

You'll never be rid of healing, and the absence of it just clarifies how necessary it really is. Here's a few examples of games that  utilizes "minimal healing" that are complete wrecks when it comes down to pvp (mind you, these are smaller scale pvp games).

 

Skyforge

Interesting class design, but complete ass game. PvP is a after thought (even tho they've devoted a lot of attention to it presumably), and the lack of a true and tested healing class turns pvp in to a shallow dps race.

 

Black Desert Online

Great combat design, but everything else feels extremely shallow. No true support / dependable healing outside of spamming your potion pot every 5s. Massive power disparity when it comes to gear and levels. One shots galore higher levels.

 

Crowfall

Yes, I put crowfall on this list, and obviously we're not seeing the whole picture with healing since there are no specializations, alchemy, disciplines, and druids (the second support archetype) in the game. Crowfall currently is head and tails ABOVE those other games I mentioned, even in it's current state, just because the legionnaire exists. However it simply isn't enough and I want to stress the important of healing, especially when you have melee dps in the game that depend on that sustain.

 

Right now your average group vs. group fight is over within seconds, with or without leggo. It feel's extremely hollow. If someone takes a significant amount of damage, that person is forced to flee combat entirely, and with no self-sustain is basically "done" for the entirety of the encounter. TTK is way too low right now, and fights seem insignificant. There is no real stratergy being employed besides "train this target down". Leggos being the only source of sustain in the group are forced to play extremely lame, using their group heal when needed (like all the time), skirting the outsides of the fight, dipping in once in a while to use their heal again, and dipping out again. If the leggo actually commits and tries to fight, he's usually going to get whooped on die, or forced to flee the fight completely.

 

Characters like the Knight and Champion that are "full commit" type melees depend largely on outside sustain.  The knight has a little easier time staying alive due to the shield, but I've seen knights get completely blown up as fast as anybody else if they decide to fight and not flee when needed. Champions are a weird spot as well, they have few defense abilities that actually help them. 5 makes them invulnerable when you hulk up, but you're still suck in place, 6 turns you in to a statue but effectively takes you out of the fight for a few seconds (most groups will change targets and smash someone else) and C gives you whatever this games definition of "iframes" is and keeps you in place. Basically if the champion leaps in, and if the other group is competent, that's effectively a dead champion. The 15-20s small heal from legionnaire isn't going to keep you alive. The fact there is no universal dodge roll with small iframe windows mechanic similar to gw2, wildstar or eso (or even DCUO, Thomas even worked on that game ;p) is bizarre to me. The kickstarter video that you guys are using on the front page even illustrates dodge rolling.

 

The general consensus is train your target till it dies, because there is no real obstacle stopping you from killing it. There is no need to pressure the healer in the back, because there is no healer in the back that can out sustain a dps train in this game for any amount of time.

 

Friendly Fire

Minimal healing when you're taking damage from your opponents sucks, but minimal healing when you throw friendly fire in to the mix is even worse. Now you're taking damage potentially from every vector, with little to no recourse. FF worked in DFO because if you screwed up and got hit, or if your teammate hit you accidentally, you could easily recover by healing yourself or having other people heal you. You could also move out of the way easier and all your melee attacks didn't cleave (but let's be honest, every one had staff and bows in that game for this very reason). With this current iteration of combat, if you had FF in the game with the same amount of healing and collateral damage, it would be hilariously bad. In crowfall, the moment you start taking damage, is the moment you're effectively screwed and should think about taking a jog. Lame.

 

There needs to be more healing alternatives.

 

I don't know if this means a lower cool down on the leggo for the time being, with some kind of potency debuff like I mentioned in another thread:

 

If I was going to remake the legionnaires healing ability, it would be 10-15s, introduce a healing co-efficiency in to the game (spirit works), and healing would place a debuff which makes healing from the same archetype less potent. So for example you get healed by legionnaire X, for 2000 health, if leggo x or another leggo heals you again within a 5-10s period of time, their heal will be significantly reduced (let's say 35-50% for argument sake). For further argument, let's call this debuff "Nature's Fatigue". Something similar for the druid, druid x heals, druid y heals, druid x is full potency, druid y is less effective due to the debuff.

 

Stacking leggos and druids would still be effective, but not AS effective as it could be. You could even have anti healing abilities like "Deep Wound" or "Disease" that reduces healing even further. You could even make it so when the healer heals himself, he only gets half of the potency, making the healer a legitimate and very possible target to bring down and limiting the "tank healer runs team around" type of play.

 

Or if more archetypes need self sustain (Rangers get a life steal), or if alchemy and healing pots on reasonable timers will solve the problem, or if there needs to be a more sustained healing archetype introduced in to the game. I don't think the game can accommodate a typical back line healer (this is actually how the leggo is played, sit in the back and stay safe, hit your heal every 20s, knock back people who try and attack you). Maybe the game could use a true frontline healer tank similar to the warrior priest or disciple of khane from warhammer.

 

Whatever the solution is, the current problem will just get worse in siege peril, where you'll encounter large groups, more damage, and a potentially even lower TTK.

Edited by helix

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There will be no fire-hose healing in Crowfall. Let's move on.

How about we don't? I mean if your argument is there will be no fire hosing healing (which is fine, I'm not asking for that, I'm just asking for MORE healing, and that can come in any form), so we shouldn't talk about it. That's not really much of an argument, right?

Edited by helix

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What do you mean by fire hose healing? we spoke to blair on tobran's stream last night he said that the druid is going to the the full on healer character, the legionnarie does have heals yeah but it's not designed to be a healer, and looking at the legions in game you hardly seeing them healing until team fights start, druid will be the classic healer character for those that want to play as a healer, and if we don't need healers than we don't need tanks either..

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What do you mean by fire hose healing? we spoke to blair on tobran's stream last night he said that the druid is going to the the full on healer character, the legionnarie does have heals yeah but it's not designed to be a healer, and looking at the legions in game you hardly seeing them healing until team fights start, druid will be the classic healer character for those that want to play as a healer, and if we don't need healers than we don't need tanks either..

 

If that's the case, I'll be happy. However I would of liked less healing on one archetype, and more spread around between all the archetypes to promote group theorycrafting and archetype diversification. 

Edited by helix

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I enjoy maining a healer sometimes so I'm all for healing in mmos. On the other hand, I do no want ridiculous OP healers such as Tera's priest at launch or WoW's druid during certain periods of time.

 

If druid has a nice healing build, I'll be there. :)

Edited by Sciocco

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There will be choices in your Legion skill tree that increases the healing, or adds healing to abilities im sure

There already are IIRC

look, buzzwords again

And the irony is that most of the legionnaire-mains testers want the heal to change from no-brainer to aimed like a hose...

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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the thing is, that NOONE here asked for fire-hose healing, yet people regurgitate the PR words form the devs...

 

 

having prevalent low potency heals on a lot of Archetypes (or promotion classes or disciplines) will be within ACE's vision (oh no he didn't)

Edited by freeze

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There is more than enough healing in the game if you play smart and tactically. The fire heals you full in about 5 seconds if you drop combat and the legio heal is enough to keep you from dying as long as you don't try to solo melee a group with your champion.  

 

If we introduce even more healing than is already present it'll give melee classes the testicular fortitude to charge in and spam their attack buttons without giving heed or mind to strategy or style. With the full confidence of massive healing at their disposal all thought of tactical engagement, or withdraw, goes out the window to make room for spammy, zergy, style gameplay.  

 

I quite enjoy the battles the way they are where knowing when and how to engage is just as important as knowing when to withdraw and regroup.   More healing would put less emphasis on the need for tactically-driven group combat.  

 

*I'm going to throw in the obligatory "this is pre-alpha" edit. Some, or even all, of the powers we currently see can change. A little early for balancing posts, no?

Edited by chodie

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As someone who plays legionnaire exclusively and part of one of the most active guilds in alpha, the legionnaire is critical to any group and kind of boring.

 

Against random groups, you can usually get away with focusing on dps a little, but against any sort of organization your job is:

1) Stay alive at edges of fights

2) Hit heal every time its up

3) manage to wack things enough to have the rage to support #2

4) Use your charge and knockback powers to break up body blocks on your fessors/dps.

5) Find a way to make up the huge rage costs you just burned on #4 to get back to #2.

6) DPS the called target--if none of the above are currently a problem.

 

I also agree that the TTK is very prone to downward spikes. (Essentially, Lego, Champ, Knight are generally slower attritional dps... Fessor is massive spiked AoE dps).  And the combat doesnt feel as tactical, nor for most groups does it allow a chance to change tactics mid-fight.  Besides being in voice comms and calling targets, the only additional tactic available is the withdrawal--which, due to the lack of snares actually works most of the times Winterblades calls for everyone to GTFO and heal/rally. Its not really an option for groups not in voice comms though. 

 

Combat is still fun.  The game is still great.  I think ACE still need a few more iterations on combat though to make it better and I hope JTodd is still where he was back in late December, with the mindset of "combat is not there yet.  Still need to make it flow better and more fun". 

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Yeah honestly this is one of those topics that is indeed too soon to tell how its going to be. So sure ask for more healing but that's likely as useful as asking for the sun to come back up tomorrow morning. We already know their stance on the style of healing they want and have hints on other classes with healing ie the Druid and we just saw the Ranger has a life steal self heal ability. So until we see all the archetypes and how they play not sure how fruitful balancing discussions are at this point.

Edited by pang

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As someone who plays legionnaire exclusively and part of one of the most active guilds in alpha, the legionnaire is critical to any group and kind of boring.

 

Exactly this.  The potential is there, but some things are lacking.  The primary is creating space for challenging decisions among alternatives.  As of now, the heal is so no-brainer that IMO it must be changed in some way (read: aimed).  A secondary thing is TTK in the form of escaping way too easily.  I swear if the hunger did not close in, almost nobody would die.

 

Edit: I still go back to my thread here, for big changes in terms of challenging decisions among alternatives. The potential is combos and the lacking is that the combos essentially play as a set rotation not as choices.

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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If we introduce even more healing than is already present it'll give melee classes the testicular fortitude to charge in and spam their attack buttons without giving heed or mind to strategy or style. With the full confidence of massive healing at their disposal all thought of tactical engagement, or withdraw, goes out the window to make room for spammy, zergy, style gameplay.

 

I remember I was in your group twice last night when we won. We thrashed tyrants group, and then another at the gateway to the keep (that took a whole 10-15 seconds each). Not much they could do when your group consists of 3.5 dps (I'm counting the leggo in there).

 

Friendly Fire is supposed to deal with spammy, zergy playstyle. You can have healing and still have plenty of tactical play, in fact healing further encourages tactical play. DFO was full of healing, and had perhaps the highest skill bar of any MMO on the market when it came to pvp.

 

So I'm confident that you can have more healing, and still preserve some resemblance of strategy and tact when it comes to melee classes.

Edited by helix

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Where did the other thread go? You confused me dude, but I'll copy & paste what I wrote there...

 

I liked how DF made it, everyone had 3 basic spells:

 

Mana to Stamina

Stamina to Health

Health to Mana

 

So, if you really needed to heal during combat, it was at a cost.

Also, there were other SELF-heals available to certain "trees", which basically converted mana to health, but all of them were for low amounts.

 

One of those self-heals had a very small AOE (like twice the size of the char itself) so it could be used for allies, and another one was a ray to heal others, but it was hard to aim and it came at your own HPs cost. I'd like all of those to be introduced in the game, since they both require skill and are low (no fire-hose).

 

P.S. The current healing from Centaur imho needs to be removed. You press a button and heal your group in a huge AOE, that's too simple.


y9tj8G5.png

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Right now your average group vs. group fight is over within seconds, with or without leggo. It feel's extremely hollow. If someone takes a significant amount of damage, that person is forced to flee combat entirely, and with no self-sustain is basically "done" for the entirety of the encounter. TTK is way too low right now, and fights seem insignificant. There is no real stratergy being employed besides "train this target down". Leggos being the only source of sustain in the group are forced to play extremely lame, using their group heal when needed (like all the time), skirting the outsides of the fight, dipping in once in a while to use their heal again, and dipping out again. If the leggo actually commits and tries to fight, he's usually going to get whooped on die, or forced to flee the fight completely.

 

Characters like the Knight and Champion that are "full commit" type melees depend largely on outside sustain.  The knight has a little easier time staying alive due to the shield, but I've seen knights get completely blown up as fast as anybody else if they decide to fight and not flee when needed. Champions are a weird spot as well, they have few defense abilities that actually help them. 5 makes them invulnerable when you hulk up, but you're still suck in place, 6 turns you in to a statue but effectively takes you out of the fight for a few seconds (most groups will change targets and smash someone else) and C gives you whatever this games definition of "iframes" is and keeps you in place. Basically if the champion leaps in, and if the other group is competent, that's effectively a dead champion. The 15-20s small heal from legionnaire isn't going to keep you alive. The fact there is no universal dodge roll with small iframe windows mechanic similar to gw2, wildstar or eso (or even DCUO, Thomas even worked on that game ;p) is bizarre to me. The kickstarter video that you guys are using on the front page even illustrates dodge rolling.

 

 

I couldn't disagree more.  TTK of an average fight is well over 60s, I just rewatched an 8v8 teamfight of mine that went on for 3:30, fastest kill I saw in the fight was a Champion who died in 0:09, but he was trying to stand toe to toe with 5 other players.  Another fight was 0:45 of a confessor who tried to stand ground against a knight for 20s, then got steamrolled by the knight's two teammates.  Another fight, a champion at half health lasted 0:30 before getting stomped by 3 players.  My favorite, though, is a 5v5 teamfight in the fire room that lasted 1:15 before one side decided to retreat because they were losing badly- no kills on either side occurred.

 

Basically, if your Time To Die is under 60s, stop trying to hold the line against overwhelming odds.  On an unrelated note, healing is *already* overpowered in CF due to a lack of runner-killers, but I have faith in the devs to balance it out.

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