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Helix

Healing is important and absolutely necessary

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if a CW has active FF, does this mean i can only damage friends or does it actually make friends and foes identical?

 

so, can i buff foes, debuff teammates, heal enemies, if FF is active? imo it should be the second version

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if a CW has active FF, does this mean i can only damage friends or does it actually make friends and foes identical?

 

so, can i buff foes, debuff teammates, heal enemies, if FF is active? imo it should be the second version

 

If it's done correctly, yes.

And that's part of the reason why I am arguing for low heals that require aiming and come at a price, which can be your stamina/mana or a friend's HPs.

Your late posts only prove that you haven't really seen how it works out, but now it's too late for you to try games like Darkfall.

 

Anyway, part of combat skills is knowing not only when to strike but also when to find coverage, or better yet looking for an environmental advantage.

In a no-healing game, you're either dealing damage or escaping, while in this scenario you can heal yourself or others AFTER you managed to secure a position of advantage. And this only works if healing, in any form, is "low" = not comparable to damages you could suffer while being healed.

 

Example, two people engage you in a forest.... you can use trees to cover yourself from some of the ranged attacks, and while your back is protected you can self-heal a little in exchange for some stamina of which you still have a lot of. Then you deal some damage, but you realize you're losing health fast in melee, so you dash forward towards another tree or a huge rock to take cover and use a Mana to Health skill to keep going.

This is how some Darkfall players managed to win 1vs2, 1vs3 and so on.

 

But it also works in bigger fights with ray-healings. Like a 2vs2... your team mate is doing fine but you're about to die and he knows that if you do, things will get dire for him... so despite him dealing a lot of damage, he backs off and tries to give you some Health sacrificing his own.

 

Some were able to use the environment to their favor and manage their Health / Stamina / Mana better than others, basically.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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if a CW has active FF, does this mean i can only damage friends or does it actually make friends and foes identical?

 

so, can i buff foes, debuff teammates, heal enemies, if FF is active? imo it should be the second version

 

 

Given the history of the team, it's possible there will be some limited implementation of Friendly Fire like there was in Shadowbane. Some AoE's affected your group, but not all did, and because it had a targeting system, and you could easily target your friends if you weren't careful (were bad) and hit them with an ability or auto-attacks. In a system without targeting (yay!), FF can be devastating.

 

It will be interesting to see how they actually implement FF though -- I hope it isn't a simple hidden toggle for skills that identifies them as FF-capable or not. I'd prefer all or nothing, but i'm expecting that some skills will be FF-capable whiles others wont be, for no real reason.

 

I'm all for FF if its implemented well. I just hope it isn't gimicky and that I don't suck and destroy my team or buff our enemies.

 

Edit: About healing specifically: I have typically liked to play a healer, but I think that's mostly because other types of support classes have been limited. While I would like to play a healer, I'd much rather play a useful support character of some sort, that doesn't become a crutch. I'm hopeful and mostly confident that will be available in CF. Low heals are fine, regen buffs are fine, movement buffs, armor buffs, snares, debuffs are all fine... anything that makes combat more interesting than bash and run is fine. Anything that promotes diverse team play, and I know very well that big heals remove diversity by becoming basically necessary components of group play.

Edited by Dema

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in lotro, every class has heal. some low, some high.

in wow, every class has heal. (i only played till wotlk, till there, there were classes with low heals)

in archeage, rift and neverwinter, it was the same. everyone had some way to heal himself. some better, some worse. but everyone could. leads to people soloing stuff and not grouping anymore at all, which is not really a problem in a game without real PvE.

still, infight healing for everyone didnt make those games better for grouping. just better for solo-play.

All of those games have awful skill design as far as pvp is concerned.

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I really don't want to see (too) much healing in the game. ESPECIALLY not spam/firehouse healing.

 

Healing is typically uninteresting and unnecessary. Especially in an action MMO where targeting becomes an issue. That doesn't mean don't have heals - just not healing classes, or super-potent consistent heals (looking at you, Legionnaire - though the slow/restricted pace of the game definitely makes it more potent atm in certain scenarios).

 

The commitment to no firehouse healing, no pure-healer classes, no-spam healing absolutely must remain in my opinion. It will lead to a much more interesting pace of combat, and greater diversity in the long run. In my book the Legionnaire is already breaking their stated design in this area. It's a boring character that is pretty necessary to compete within the game.

 

I disagree, I enjoy playing support role in most MMO/RPGS,MOBAs. I think it is foolish to downplay the importance of such roles.

Combat still has a ways to go and grow in CF so we shall see what happens.

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As far as we know, the game is built with the idea of FF in mind. Some rulesets are supposed to make FF less harsh (through less damage or only debuffs even), but you have to understand that those rulesets are the exception to the rule, and are there to ensure that the overall population of the game is big enough to sustain its neverending development.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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Well this entire discussion is set in the back drop of FOUR of the THIRTEEN archetypes coming to CF. With that in mind we can only take it to far before we are just dumping out personal theories on how it will all shake out when all of them come online. 

 

Instead of getting into how much healing we may or may not need since I see that as more of a balance issue, which won't be considered until much closer to launch, I'll throw out a reminder that healing isn't the only way to "support" your team. Healing is mainly to counter the damage output and prolong the life of your team. This can also be done through buffs (increased temp resist to different types of damage), debuffs (lower the damage output of target or increase the refresh time powers), roots (hold and enemy in place while your mate runs away from DPS) stuns, blinds, interrupts, and damage redirects. 

 

These are just a few examples and each one can be used in a variety of ways but by no means is a complete lists. Still it does show that while having increased healing can help its not the only way to effectively support your team. 

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I did not read the whole thread so somebody could have voiced this already, but what could possibly be done to make healing a bit different is:

 

1.) Estimate the average "healer output" per encounter

2.) Currently the probability of heals going in is 100%, so they have to reduce that probability by making it a skillshot (maybe a cone) with possibility of healing an enemy on hit. 

3.) Increase the amount healed, so the average amount healed per encounter stays roughly the same.

 

 Possibly make different legionaire spec classes have different weapon sets, you could have a ranged centaur that shoots a bow and has a very narrow more powerful long ranged healing skillshot, that is a pain in the ass to aim (similar to ranger). A melee centaur that functions the way it is now. And a magic based legionnaire (prelate) that is something in between the mellee and the ranged (throw a couple  smites, then heal in cone in front of you.)

Edited by rajah

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As someone who plays legionnaire exclusively and part of one of the most active guilds in alpha, the legionnaire is critical to any group and kind of boring.

 

Against random groups, you can usually get away with focusing on dps a little, but against any sort of organization your job is:

1) Stay alive at edges of fights

2) Hit heal every time its up

3) manage to wack things enough to have the rage to support #2

4) Use your charge and knockback powers to break up body blocks on your fessors/dps.

5) Find a way to make up the huge rage costs you just burned on #4 to get back to #2.

6) DPS the called target--if none of the above are currently a problem.

 

I also agree that the TTK is very prone to downward spikes. (Essentially, Lego, Champ, Knight are generally slower attritional dps... Fessor is massive spiked AoE dps).  And the combat doesnt feel as tactical, nor for most groups does it allow a chance to change tactics mid-fight.  Besides being in voice comms and calling targets, the only additional tactic available is the withdrawal--which, due to the lack of snares actually works most of the times Winterblades calls for everyone to GTFO and heal/rally. Its not really an option for groups not in voice comms though. 

 

Combat is still fun.  The game is still great.  I think ACE still need a few more iterations on combat though to make it better and I hope JTodd is still where he was back in late December, with the mindset of "combat is not there yet.  Still need to make it flow better and more fun". 

 

Good summary of how lego currently plays.

Edited by infraction

 

Rage Quit

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The_Care_Bear_Stare_in_the_colors_of_the

 

Don't be an ass.

 

 

Anyway, I'm hoping for healing, should it come, to come in an interesting and active way, with plenty of risk to the reward. For instance, if the Druid's healing is single-target and projectile, so that while it is more practical to be healing those out of combat and nearby, a skilled Druid might send a healing bolt across the battle to save an ally. In friendly fire, this might heal the enemy by accident. Or, possibly, the Druid cannot create health from nothing, such as resource, and uses both Mana and Health as a resource, meaning that healing too much will leave the Druid too weak and vulnerable in the fight.

 

These aren't carebear suggestions, I feel, and are worthy of discussion and consideration, unlike those of us who might wave off everything as "2 EZ 4 me" without any real contribution or thought.

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This is a dead ass subject which has been done to death, and resolved. And this isn't some new member either, it's denial.

 

Destroying the trinity was one of the key subjects in their pitch.

Edited by bahamutkaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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This is a dead ass subject which has been done to death, and resolved. And this isn't some new member either, it's denial.

 

Destroying the trinity was one of the key subjects in their pitch.

 

Destroying the trinity shouldn't be too focused on as a benefit. There is logic in the trinity, and balance. However it has proved boring and inept and thus innovation is sought.

 

However, instead of destroying the trinity, I believe it would be better to refine and expand it, such as adding the role of CC and other forms of support and roles in combat. So instead of throwing away the healer, it is better, I believe, to ask how to make healing an interesting/fun/balanced playstyle.

 

Even if it is denial, there is always benefit in discussion for the chance of innovative thought.

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This is a dead ass subject which has been done to death, and resolved. And this isn't some new member either, it's denial.

 

Destroying the trinity was one of the key subjects in their pitch.

Been here since day 1 pretty much and don't remember that ever being a talking point or sales pitch from ACE. They said "no fire hose healing" ie no boring standing in the back watching health bars playing wack-a-mole. So making the trinity less make or break and more active yes but getting rid of it altogether? Nope.

Edited by pang

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An idea just popped into my head so ill share it here.

 

Why not make healing follow the same rule of thumb as the rest of crowfall? Risk vs Reward. I think adding a system where no heal is free (and i dont mean just mana/rage costs) would be an interesting way to handle healing in this game to stop it from becoming too main stream.

 

Two examples of this i have thought of so far;

 

1. The person healing loses health to heal allies.

 

So the teams healer can help the team survive but each time they heal they lower their health, this puts the healer in danger which in turn puts the team in danger. If the healer heals to much it leaves them vulnerable to being killed quickly if (when) the enemy team decides to focus them

 

2. Healing Debuffs on the healer or the ?Healee? (Person being healed)

 

Imagine if they kept the leggo the same but the AoE heal gave the leggo a 5 second or so reduced movement buff (or some other drawback). This will make healing a more important decision cause the leggos are fast, they run around alot and can outrun basically everyone one (OBERON!!!!!!!!) but if the healing came with a draw back the leggo would need to be able to decide when healing is worth it. If they know their team will have their back for that short duration debuff then they can fire off heals wildly. If not they may need to pick their heals more sparingly (ie. healing near the outter ring of the fight possibly missing a few allies, to make sure they dont get completely screwed by the debuff)

 

alternatively for other healers make the heal debuff the player being healed, so the person getting healed gets some HP but they get slowed (or the other debuff). It makes it so healing might not be the best option in certain situations.

 

So the decision to heal will become a more important choice in combat, and then there would be a way to tell good healers apart from bad healer. A good healer can manage their downsides and heal when it will give them the most benefit/flexibility, a bad healer will do what leggos currently do, push the heal button wait 20 seconds push heal again wait 20 seconds push heal again etc...

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This is a dead ass subject which has been done to death, and resolved. And this isn't some new member either, it's denial.

Destroying the trinity was one of the key subjects in their pitch.

Noticed how I didn't mention anything about trinity? Right now there IS a trinity however, with Legos functioning as back line heals. You would know this tho, if you actually tested the game and not just trolled the forums writing essays about nothing :D.

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