Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Pann

Go go, Ranger powers! Official discussion thread

Recommended Posts

I'm purely basing it purely on speculation and experience from previous games, of course. If there's "sniper"-like class(es) that's gonna be able to stand at the backline and do insane damage with fully charged attacks then they are of course gonna get trained on 24/7 by melee groups that wrap around and can get all up in their face and stick on them until they are dead, especially in a game where there's no classic firehose healers to focus.

 

Macavity's got a point. I realize that as developersb you're aware of this, but the "it's okay because" tradeoff only takes you so far. Extreme example to make a point: if the Stalker was planned to have a 20-second attack prep time, it wouldn't be magically okay simply because his javelin-like-arros can one-shot 7 foes and pin them all to a tree like a kabob. That simply isn't fun.

 

It's the old-school DnD Wizard principle. "Oh, you have negative five HP and get to cast two spells per day that are equivalent in power to half a round of conventional weapon attacks (which you suck at by the way), but don't worry! You'll become a walking Death Star in about 10 levels. Until then, just let everyone else participate while you wait for your super-specific role to come up."

 

I'm not saying you have to make the Stalker a run-and-gun speedy shooter who melee-archers people to death. But, designing a ranged class solely around ideal conditions can lead to a great deal of unfun. No one wants to be limited to ultra slow shots that uber-murder, and no one wants to be hit by murder javelins that one-shot them just because the Stalker was lucky enough to hit (not that it's pure luck, but luck factors in -- guessing which way someone will move, etc.). Sure, the numbers balance, but the fun doesn't.

 

They can function best when at a range, taking their time. Butb they still have to function feasibly at a lesser range and not as slowly. It's not just a matter of "when long range fails, the daggers come out."


This post brought to you by...
Lephys. Because everything's better with a smile facepalm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For what it's worth, the Stalker isn't necessarily supposed to be slower than "this" (these specific Ranger attack speed mechanics). Just relatively slower than whatever the Ranger ends up at. They have ideas for how they want the archetypes to function, but I don't think they had a meeting and said "First thing's first, guys... Attack speed... Minimum of 3 seconds for the Rangerb and like 5 or 6 for the Stalker? All right, cool! Now let's design tbe rest of the archetype! 8D!"

 

All the mathematical values are the easily tweakable things. The general idea is less tweakable on-the-fly. So they don't want the Ranger to just jog around spamming arrows, it would seem, but that doesn't mean they're hellbent on exact charge times and such.

Yeah, I completely get that, we're just "theorycrafting" and speculating here. I'm just not fond of the whole "let's wait and see while not talking about it" approach when it comes to games because in a lot of cases it ends up with people just slowly accepting and/or forgetting bad things/mechanics and then the game ends up releasing with them because people just eventually got used to them and accepted them.

 

2) What if being stationary while aiming/charging (maybe even taking a knee?) increased your range/velocity/charge-speed? That would be an inherent trade-off. Continue moving around, or make a more lethal/precise shot (or make one more quickly at the cost of not moving for the duration). At the very least, I think the level of charge of your shot should affect your arrow's velocity. That way, taking your time could lead to an easier time of accurately hitting people at a distance.

I would take a moblity stance + sniping stance with a toggle any day over the bow/daggers thing we have now and then have the daggers be a discipline where you could trade the mobility or sniping stance for a melee stance if you absolutely wanted to.

Edited by macavity

7ug90hM.png


 


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't understand why everyone is so concerned that the Ranger has to stay stationary to fire ranged attacks.  If there wasn't a downside to ranged attacks then you wouldn't want melee dps at all.  You have teammates and a whole entire set of melee abilities to utilize if the fight gets close to you.  I like that there are distinct roles and playstyles to these archetypes, if you want some faster attacks or more ranged mobility, maybe you stay with the Confessor (or perhaps a promotion class of the Ranger).  

 

What is even more amusing is that it was just a few days ago that people worried Ranger was going to be OP.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 We made some nods to this ala the Archer's Stake which is based on the interpretation that Archer's are at the back of the battle taking pot shots. (snip)

 

 

 

I jumped into critiquing this archetype before thanking you for introducing us to the Ranger. Your team has done a huge amount of work and I see things I like, and a few things I have concerns about, but I do appreciate the updates and the open communication.  

 

But if you decide to add physical structure and weight to Archers Stake I would like to disabuse you of the idea we are going to use it to hide behind at the back of the pack for pot shots. It will be used for all kinds of mischief and hi-jinks on the front line before it will ever be used for that.

 

Looking forward to more info as we pass each milestone and iteration.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I completely get that, we're just "theorycrafting" and speculating here. I'm just not fond of the whole "let's wait and see while not talking about it" approach when it comes to games because in a lot of cases it ends up with people just slowly accepting and/or forgetting bad things/mechanics and then the game ends up releasing with them because people just eventually got used to them and accepted them.

 

Totally understandable. I don't think we shouldn't talk about it. It's just that going into depth about just how bad the current, exact, untweaked values would be doesn't do much more good than "Hey, here's a concern. Just make sure you tweak accordingly, ACE."

 

I just think the time spent on going further into that could be spent brainstorming really great possibilities, so that when they do need to change something up, they'll have a full quiver (see what I did there?). :)

 

I don't understand why everyone is so concerned that the Ranger has to stay stationary to fire ranged attacks.  If there wasn't a downside to ranged attacks then you wouldn't want melee dps at all.  You have teammates and a whole entire set of melee abilities to utilize if the fight gets close to you.  I like that there are distinct roles and playstyles to these archetypes, if you want some faster attacks or more ranged mobility, maybe you stay with the Confessor (or perhaps a promotion class of the Ranger).  

... a downside... There are oodles as it stands currently:

 

1) You have to stand still to attack

2) Attacking is slow (unless you just want to take pot shots at people for low damage)

3) You have to actually hit people via aiming plus the playing out of physics (aiming, alone, doesn't make you hit)

4) Sort of part of 3, but your shots can be intercepted/blocked, so you have to have a clear line of sight.

5) Finite ammo

 

That's all just to be useful at all. There's still plenty of room to reach all the way up to optimal effectiveness.

 

So yeah. Just seems a bit heavy on the downsides. A role is one thing. "You just stand far away behind your stakes and deal damage from afar, stationary" is not a playstyle... It's a chore. There should be a bit more to your role than that.

 

On the note of "this is a team game"... That's true, but if class A needs a perfect complementary group around to even partake in their role, and class B could just wander around with 10 other class B's and still get to effectively do stuff, you have a problem with what you're offering the player. It's not even a matter of 1-on-1 power balance or anything. It's part of finding the fun.

 

Again, no one's saying "make the Ranger an in-the-fray, never-haszto-stand-still archetype!". We're just saying "Hey... Make sure the role isn't too constricted, and make sure to find the fun with your concept."


This post brought to you by...
Lephys. Because everything's better with a smile facepalm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the clarification.

 

I am also concerned about ranger being still every time she attacks. Hopefully we'll be able to move while attacking at some point...

No. Absolutely not. NO.

 

To be able to actually fire an arrow with ANY degree of accuracy AND damaging power (let alone killing), archers were often stationary. The myth of Legolas is that: FICTION. If you really want to see high speed mobile arrow shooting, look at merida from Brave. That's essentially light speed archery.

 

And before the thread is flooded with lars andersen crap, learn the difference between trick shooting, and combat shooting. These are 2 very different things, from draw power, tension, power, posture, etc. There were no truly "mobile archers". Their mobility came from taking a shot, doubling back to a secondary fortified position and firing again...EACH SHOT BEING STATIONARY.

 

Beyond realism, the stationary shooting keeps the (allready OP) advantage of range in check. This at least forces ranged to think of their positioning, as well as give melee a chance to close gaps and pursue, and reduces/eliminates the issues inherent with kiting.

Edited by RKNM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@UP  (...)

Well then, if we are so sticky to realism. 

I demand archer range to be increased tenfold.

Knights to be slowed down GREATLY. All that armor....

Remove centaurs. They never existed.

Champion needs to die after 1-2 hits from all sources. No armor on that guy.

Not even starting with Confessor using MAGIC....

 

See how terrible argument realism is in Crowfall ?

Class has to be FUN first and foremost.

And from what we see in this thread - movement could help in that regard on all the classes - and ranger as well.

Edited by Naur

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And as already stated, they are working on "movement while fighting" part, it's not yet in (maybe in 2.0 but i don't think at start) but it will as Todd already stated.

 

It's just a video showing the powers of the ranger and how they look and what they do, it's not the release of the game, so chill out a little, the point of "we want to be able to move while fighting" was already discussed in a huge thread and the report of Siege Perilous was for that, so wait until they give us the corrections on the combat system.


WnxjrJ9.gif

Thelanas Kar'Pal Membre fondateur de l'alliance Naerth en 2001 - Ex Shadowbane European Advisor Damnation/Carnage/Vindication/Corruption http://www.twitch.tv/gorwald/profile

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wish i can use some long bow attacks while moving.. it might be cool.

Everything looks good so far.

 

I can't wait to try ranger out :D!

 

Being able to strafe when dueling another ranged is a must

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No. Absolutely not. NO.

 

To be able to actually fire an arrow with ANY degree of accuracy AND damaging power (let alone killing), archers were often stationary. The myth of Legolas is that: FICTION. If you really want to see high speed mobile arrow shooting, look at merida from Brave. That's essentially light speed archery.

 

And before the thread is flooded with lars andersen crap, learn the difference between trick shooting, and combat shooting. These are 2 very different things, from draw power, tension, power, posture, etc. There were no truly "mobile archers". Their mobility came from taking a shot, doubling back to a secondary fortified position and firing again...EACH SHOT BEING STATIONARY.

 

Beyond realism, the stationary shooting keeps the (allready OP) advantage of range in check. This at least forces ranged to think of their positioning, as well as give melee a chance to close gaps and pursue, and reduces/eliminates the issues inherent with kiting.

 

Looks like someone prefers theory over practice. Are you playing the game?

Or do you have any kind of experience with this gameplay?

 

EWkzdJG.png

 

Oh god.... please let us know if this is the stance on the combat, because if it is some of us will glady leave and won't trouble you anymore.

The only thing that keeps me going here is hope that combat will change, but if that's not the case I'm only wasting time.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

y9tj8G5.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That ranged archetype with a deployable obstruction, 2 huge gap closers, not including any dodge moves, and no friendly fire or projectile arcing, yaaaaay... not >.>


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks like someone prefers theory over practice. Are you playing the game?

Or do you have any kind of experience with this gameplay?

 

EWkzdJG.png

 

Oh god.... please let us know if this is the stance on the combat, because if it is some of us will glady leave and won't trouble you anymore.

The only thing that keeps me going here is hope that combat will change, but if that's not the case I'm only wasting time.

 

 

Edit : NVM , I just don't know how to comment on Lead Dev liking post which begs for stationary combat. Please make statement soon how do you Art guys expect combat to look at release ? Everything right now seems like it will be slow, full of animation locks and lacking general movement... not fun at all in summary.

Edited by Naur

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Edit : NVM , I just don't know how to comment on Lead Dev liking post which begs for stationary combat. Please make statement soon how do you Art guys expect combat to look at release ? Everything right now seems like it will be slow, full of animation locks and lacking general movement... not fun at all in summary.

 

 

 

 

 

EWkzdJG.png

 

Oh god.... please let us know if this is the stance on the combat, because if it is some of us will glady leave and won't trouble you anymore.

The only thing that keeps me going here is hope that combat will change, but if that's not the case I'm only wasting time.

 

You are serious guys? You are turning crazy because Thomas liked a post who speak about realism in archery? WoW....

 

www.crowfall.com/en/news/founders-update-defining-pre-alpha/

Edited by Gorwald

WnxjrJ9.gif

Thelanas Kar'Pal Membre fondateur de l'alliance Naerth en 2001 - Ex Shadowbane European Advisor Damnation/Carnage/Vindication/Corruption http://www.twitch.tv/gorwald/profile

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My opinion is that a combat with more limited mobility during the attacks than in modern action MMORPGs (BDO, B&S) may still be fine in a game like Crowfall, since it's intended become a mix between a MMORPG and a strategy game, with a combat a little more "action oriented" than traditional MMORPGs. I think that there's no inherent issue with more or less mobility when the character performs an attack, as long as it is well balanced.

 

Being rooted to fire arrows makes sense to me in a game in which positioning, tactics and team play play an important role. They've said in the past that they don't want the combat to be too twitchy or to see bunny jumping / orbital fights. I think they want to strike a balance between mechanical skills and tactical skills. If we put too much focus on one (either FPS or RTS approach), I believe the other one suffers inevitably.

 

If we compare the current state of Crowfall to any traditional MMORPG (Shadowbane, DAoC, WoW...) the combat is light years away from that, a lot more action focused, with free aim, NO AIMING ASSISTANCE :D, projectiles with lobs and ricochets, a diversity of powers (single target, cones, AoE, directional, etc.), lot of movement through powers (dashes, sprint, strafing, parades, I think I've seen the ranger roll too in the video), active blocking, 3rd person shooter camera mode, physics, no custard RNG for miss or hit, combat relying a lot on positioning, reflexes (to some extent) and tactics...

 

There are surely some improvements required, and the team said they were working on it. We got soon 5 archetypes in the game, there are still 8 left to implement. I think that in a few months it's going to be easier to judge if the combat is satisfying. Personally, I think it's well under way to become what they wanted for the game: a combat that requires team play, that is more action focused than traditional MMORPG, where positioning is really important, in which each players has a definite role and can't afford to just rush in a nonsensical madness bunny jumping all around the battle field.

 

We'll see how it goes, but surely developers are working on improvements to make the combat better, and I'm sure that if we keep giving them good feedback and suggestions, it's going to feel great soon.

Edited by courant101

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are serious guys? You are turning crazy because Thomas liked a post who speak about realism in archery? WoW....

 

The post blair liked had this for an answer: "No. Absolutely not. NO.", to my "Hopefully we'll be able to move while attacking at some point".

So yes, I am allowed to be concerned about it.

 

We have been patient for what, 8 months now? And that was because we were led to believe that combat stationarity was going to be fixed.

If that's not true, me and I bet some others will like to know as soon as possible, as we wouldn't want to waste more time in that case.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

y9tj8G5.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We have been patient for what, 8 months now? And that was because we were led to believe that combat stationarity was going to be fixed.

 

From what I've understood they are working on making it easier for melee archetypes to stick on a target by allowing the character to keep some velocity while attacking so the characters don't instantly stop moving when we initiate an attack.

 

As far as I know they've never said that they were changing the whole animation lock thing. The champion can move while shooting projectiles, maybe they could use this mechanic on other archetypes to for extra mobility.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No. Absolutely not. NO.

 

To be able to actually fire an arrow with ANY degree of accuracy AND damaging power (let alone killing), archers were often stationary. The myth of Legolas is that: FICTION. If you really want to see high speed mobile arrow shooting, look at merida from Brave. That's essentially light speed archery.

 

And before the thread is flooded with lars andersen crap, learn the difference between trick shooting, and combat shooting. These are 2 very different things, from draw power, tension, power, posture, etc. There were no truly "mobile archers". Their mobility came from taking a shot, doubling back to a secondary fortified position and firing again...EACH SHOT BEING STATIONARY.

 

Beyond realism, the stationary shooting keeps the (allready OP) advantage of range in check. This at least forces ranged to think of their positioning, as well as give melee a chance to close gaps and pursue, and reduces/eliminates the issues inherent with kiting.

Pretty sure no one at least that I've seen is expecting or asking for "Legolas" type gameplay in CF. Simply the ability to move albeit slowly in order to better track targets and reposition to better avoid being hit during combat and overall not feel so clunky. Past games have allowed movement while attacking and been just fine. So for a Dev clearly willing to try things I don't see how its too much to ask to just try it out and see how it goes. Besides if they do allow players to move, again albeit slowly, while attacking you still have the option of standing still.

 

Having said all that and while I have a preference for the style of play id like to see, I'm overall in favor of what works best for this game and provides most fun and enjoyable combat. Can't wait to test this class and see for myself how it works.

Edited by pang

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...