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Go go, Ranger powers! Official discussion thread

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After watching the video...it seems as if there will be no running and shooting with the ranger..

It appears that you must be stationary to shoot...which is fine by me.

 

There will be a lot of players who will be disappointed with the Ranger once they realize they can't kite anymore.....


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I think we need to see what kind of damage these attacks do if they aren't charged. If the knight doesn't charge shield slam, the damage is pitiful. If a ranger doesn't charge their ranged attacks, will they at least do decent damage? If so, then rangers can charge when they have the time to charge, in order to do more damage, and they can cast quicker when they need to move more. Or they can switch to melee, which should include momentum on the attacks.

 

Ranged attacks don't need momentum, and if anyone was thinking they were going to do away with animation locks entirely, then they haven't really been paying attention.

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@Snowmizer, 

Rangers can still shoot and evade, if they get decent range trained up.

Kiting will just be different for rangers than it is in other sandbox MMOs.

Does Ricochet shoot arrows around corners?

Does Charging up a power void Ranger's Hide power, or are they invisible until they release the shot?

Is the Archer's Stake power AoE invisible while you hide and put out your pickets before you shoot, or would it give your position away?

 

@Arkade, The Ranger is Special ed. (Stealth), I guess?

Since Ricochet will work like chain lightning from AD&D, yes.

If you have line of sight (LoS) on an enemy and hit him with ricochet, other targets near him could be hit with the splash, even if they aren't in your LoS.

 

The rest begs a Dev to reply.

Edited by chancellor

I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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Hm, I'm kinda liking the slower combat style. Don't get me wrong, it's still has plenty of chinks and needs to be way smoother, but overall the speed doesn't really bug me. And honestly if you're going for a less mobile ranged character, I can understand that and it can be fun, since complete mobility with range could make her quite OP (not that you're going for Archetype balance, but I think you know what I mean). However, when she switches to melee, I think complete mobility is necessary. I mean, the whole purpose of it is to be able to hold her own for a bit before backing off and switching to her bow and arrows again. It's not a long-standing form (unless she promotes to make it more so) and exists only to give her a chance to survive and escape to a safe distance. So I definitely think mobility is a must. Stationary with a bow, mobile with blades.

 

Just my two cents, loving the progress ACE <3

 

Oh, and out of curiosity: smoothing out combat is obvious and I'd be surprised (and a little put off) if a dev came on and said "Nope! This is what the end's gonna look like!" Obviously there will be changes, but I wanna know something. Is the end-goal for combat going to be much faster than this, or is the speed of combat going to be about the same (with smoother transitions and bringing skills down to spec, of course)? Are certain Archetypes going to be faster in combat that others, or will there be skills in the trees specifically oriented towards speeding up powers and normal attacks? I know you guys mentioned increases to movement speed, but attack speed? I don't think I've seen that mentioned.


Can we have a Bard? If not as an Archetype or Promotion, then maybe a Discipline?


i-3ZQNFxh.jpg

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The ranger does have mobility in melee combat. Forest Step (which will likely get moved to the assassin), Dodge Roll (both melee and ranged) and Disengage.

 

The good thing about the rangers ranged abilities is that you can stop executing them at any time, since they are charged abilities. You start casting an ability and then realize you need to move? Stop charging so the ability casts and hit Dodge Roll. You don't have to wait out the entire charge time.

 

Melee attacks will have momentum, so you will have some movement while attacking. 

 

I think the ranger will be a lot more mobile than people realize.

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This seems good. Aiming seems hard enough that melee characters strafing will be a reasonable defense against  Rangers, while skills like the Legionnaire's leaps and Knight's chain will be valuable gap-closers. Still curious to see the average amount of arrows people will have [not can have, but how many people will usually carry or have access to] which is important in its match-up versus Confessor.

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So yeah. Just seems a bit heavy on the downsides. A role is one thing. "You just stand far away behind your stakes and deal damage from afar, stationary" is not a playstyle... It's a chore. There should be a bit more to your role than that.

 

On the note of "this is a team game"... That's true, but if class A needs a perfect complementary group around to even partake in their role, and class B could just wander around with 10 other class B's and still get to effectively do stuff, you have a problem with what you're offering the player. It's not even a matter of 1-on-1 power balance or anything. It's part of finding the fun.

 

Again, no one's saying "make the Ranger an in-the-fray, never-haszto-stand-still archetype!". We're just saying "Hey... Make sure the role isn't too constricted, and make sure to find the fun with your concept."

 

Standing in the back and dealing damage from afar is a playstyle, and one which we really didn't have because much of the Confessor damage comes at closer range.  The Ranger also has melee abilities (one which includes a large gap opener) if the fight is brought to them.  But people are overreacting in both directions without even being able to play the ranger.  I like the direction that ACE is heading in terms of putting out archetypes with much more distinct roles, especially ones that require teamwork to excel.  I rather have them start at the too much drawback and too much upside end (e.g. very stationary but with very powerful abilities) and see how they perform in a group setting, and then balance from there.  

 

In regards to team comp, some archetypes will perform better than others in certain situations and comps, that isn't really a problem.  It is a problem if the team comp is too rigid, and/or if the more tailored team comp does not outperform other classes in a more haphazard team comp.  In terms of rigidity, I think it is fine if a Ranger needs a tank to perform their job to the maximum, I think it is a problem if they must have a Knight.   

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EWkzdJG.png

 

Oh god.... please let us know if this is the stance on the combat, because if it is some of us will glady leave and won't trouble you anymore.

The only thing that keeps me going here is hope that combat will change, but if that's not the case I'm only wasting time.

They flat out said they are changing movement so when you attack your character keeps their momentum and moves in the direction they were going.

 

It would be a bold faced lie if they werent working on it, and i am sure they would NOT do that. It could be another change to design i they decided not too add movement but I doubt jtodd and blair would have made the video if they werent sure it was a direction they were going.

 

I agree tho, if they werent doing anything about movement i would be out the door

Edited by Ziz

MOkvLlm.png

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Heres a fix for everything lol :P.

Allow ranger to attack while moving but implement a 30% movement reduction while charging her shot, cap the charge at 50% while moving and if possible, make the accuracy decrease 5% (its a bow so no recoil penalty).

 

If you implement something like that. It will probably make people want to try snd sit still to get a harder hitting shot thats easier to hit, but will keep ranger vs ranger fun.

Edited by amazingtacoburito

 

Formerly known as - AmazingTacoBurito

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Heres a fix for everything lol :P.

Allow ranger to attack while moving but implement a 30% movement reduction while charging her shot, cap the charge at 50% while moving and if possible, make the accuracy decrease 5% (its a bow so no recoil penalty).

 

If you implement something like that. It will probably make people want to try snd sit still to get a harder hitting shot thats easier to hit, but will keep ranger vs ranger fun.

You get it.

Most ppl here understand it.

Question is : Does Ace get it ?

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You get it.

Most ppl here understand it.

Question is : Does Ace get it ?

It shouldnt be too hard for them to implement something like that and they can still solve the kiting problem because swinging a sword and running isnt hard,that would cause maybe a 5% movement debuff and 5% damage debuff. Gives incentive for stationary combat for more damage but allows movement for chasing and running.


 

Formerly known as - AmazingTacoBurito

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WASD to control the "legs"

 

ability tray + mouse abilities to control the "torso"

 

"torso" abilities can vary from having zero effect(0%) on "legs" speed, to sightly slow(25%), to slow,(50%), very slow (75%) or to full stop(100%), depending on how strong they are among other factors, exactly like how knight RMB works right now. Animation locks still exist but exist on a gradient, and full animation locks still exist as the "full stop" speed for the most powerful abilities or where it's justified.

 

Knight LMB 1 would be 0%, LMB 2 25%, LMB 3 would be 50%. Knight 3(1) 25%, Knight 3(2) 75%. Chain pull 100%. Knight RMB 50%. If you want more damage or effect, you have to take a mobility penalty. Cut the animation times down a tad and baby, you've got a stew going.

 

"That would be silly"

Edited by freeze

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Can she only use her abilities while standing still or is that a coincidence? I love the abilities that she has, it looks like she has an amazing set of different abilities. I do however think that the combat looks pretty boring / slow. I rather want to play a Lars Andersen archer.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk

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-snip-

I think the main problem with a lot of concerns right now is that it doesn't even seem like the devs know what they want to do.

 

It's like they're trying to make a game with strategy/tactics/etc. while trying to make action combat but slowing it down to allow for the slower strategies/tactics to work. So it seems like the end product is gonna end up being some sort of broken half/half thing because they can't commit to what they really want to do.

 

If they want a slow-ish strategy/tactic-based game they should have just gone with traditional tab-target combat.

 

If they want an action combat game then they need to speed things up and forget about trying to force the combat to be slow with long animations, rooting, etc.

 

You can't really combine these 2 things and just hope for the best, which is what it seems like they're trying to do, sadly.


7ug90hM.png


 


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WASD to control the "legs"

 

ability tray + mouse abilities to control the "torso"

 

"torso" abilities can vary from having zero effect(0%) on "legs" speed, to sightly slow(25%), to slow,(50%), very slow (75%) or to full stop(100%), depending on how strong they are among other factors, exactly like how knight RMB works right now. Animation locks still exist but exist on a gradient, and full animation locks still exist as the "full stop" speed for the most powerful abilities or where it's justified.

 

Knight LMB 1 would be 0%, LMB 2 25%, LMB 3 would be 50%. Knight 3(1) 25%, Knight 3(2) 75%. Chain pull 100%. Knight RMB 50%. If you want more damage or effect, you have to take a mobility penalty. Cut the animation times down a tad and baby, you've got a stew going.

 

They've said that they tried split animations (we can see it on the Kickstarter demo) and they weren't satisfied. Blending torso animations with lower body movements take time to make it look great. My guess is that they've done it for the Knight and realized it would take a considerable amount of work to achieve the same for each archetype. Especially considering that some powers come from disciplines and there are crossover among multiple archetypes. That would require more torso animations and more blend to fit with each new archetypes and discipline powers. Their 2 animators are probably already busy enough with creating animations for all 21 characters and monsters.

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I think the main problem with a lot of concerns right now is that it doesn't even seem like the devs know what they want to do.

 

It's like they're trying to make a game with strategy/tactics/etc. while trying to make action combat but slowing it down to allow for the slower strategies/tactics to work. So it seems like the end product is gonna end up being some sort of broken half/half thing because they can't commit to what they really want to do.

 

If they want a slow-ish strategy/tactic-based game they should have just gone with traditional tab-target combat.

 

If they want an action combat game then they need to speed things up and forget about trying to force the combat to be slow with long animations, rooting, etc.

 

You can't really combine these 2 things and just hope for the best, which is what it seems like they're trying to do, sadly.

 

Well I think they commit to exactly what they said they want to do. When I read the combat FAQ that was published more than a year ago, it seems to me that they're still aiming for the same goal, which is as you mention a mix between strategy/tactics and action combat.

 

Some players who are used to tab-targeting and find it too hard to aim by themselves may not like the combat. And some players who are used to Quake / Darkfall may find it too slow. But afaik the devs always said they were trying something new and not SB or DF 2.0. There are plenty of games that offer full tab-target or at the opposite extremely mobile /action focused combat.

 

 

"1. DOES COMBAT USE TAB-TARGETING?

No. We’ve tried to make combat in Crowfall a little more action-combat focused, than your traditional MMO.  For instance, we have “dashes” that you use to avoid attacks, as opposed to a passive (randomized) dodge system.  Finding the right balance on this one has been extremely challenging from a design perspective, but we think we’ve found a mid-point. Hopefully you’ll agree."

 

"4. HOW WILL COMBAT “FEEL” IN CROWFALL?

In deciding what we want combat to “look and feel like,” we are drawing a lot of our inspiration from other recent MMOs. We love the idea of action-combat – but we have to make sure the game doesn’t get too “twitchy” (i.e. require lightning fast reflexes or too much button-mashing).

Combat has certain elements that are similar to Wildstar (our movement includes things like sprints, dashes, and double jumps) and other elements that are similar to TERA (combo attacks that have short “locked” animation sequences chains which you can opt to continue or break, for a cost.)

The result – when combined with our voxel terrain and physics based movement systems – is combat sequences that looks more fluid, feel more visceral and require more tactical thinking."

Edited by courant101

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Heres a fix for everything lol :P.

Allow ranger to attack while moving but implement a 30% movement reduction while charging her shot, cap the charge at 50% while moving and if possible, make the accuracy decrease 5% (its a bow so no recoil penalty).

 

If you implement something like that. It will probably make people want to try snd sit still to get a harder hitting shot thats easier to hit, but will keep ranger vs ranger fun.

 I don't see anyone staying still with these types of changes.  70% movement speed is too fast, especially since you are going from the current design of 0% speed up to 70% speed (and we don't even know how much momentum attacks will keep when implemented).  The charge cap doesn't reduce dps and only would reduce burst potential and consume more arrows (50% charge means 50% damage, but also means 50% less time charging), so the severity of this drawback depends on arrow scarcity.  To reduce dps you would need to slow the charge time as well.  But the more penalties you put on movement, the less people will move while firing, and instead will revert back to staying still while firing and then re-positioning, which is what the current design is.  

 

If you can move while firing, the melee tray becomes less necessary, and really it is a waste if it is only the out-of-arrow combat tray.  

 

They have already stated they are not balancing the game on any 1v1 scenario.  So 1v1 fun is not part of the stated design intent.  There will be archetypes that are just better and more fun 1v1.  If the Ranger needs more mobility in a group setting, it should get it, but that sort of balancing will happen later.

Edited by Bnol

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On 3/11/2016 at 4:13 PM, courant101 said:

They've said that they tried split animations (we can see it on the Kickstarter demo) and they weren't satisfied. Blending torso animations with lower body movements take time to make it look great. My guess is that they've done it for the Knight and realized it would take a considerable amount of work to achieve the same for each archetype. Especially considering that some powers come from disciplines and there are crossover among multiple archetypes. That would require more torso animations and more blend to fit with each new archetypes and discipline powers. Their 2 animators are probably already busy enough with creating animations for all 21 characters and monsters.

 

E

Edited by Effeh

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