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Go go, Ranger powers! Official discussion thread


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Amazing, i like animations and movements.

 

Regarding the zoom in and out while you shoot, i personally don't like it, hopefully will be possible to set the camera over the shoulders and totally FPS, more options the better.

 

Also i like that the hitbox is not so big, players skills > ingame skills, and yes to finite ammo (my crafters will thank you). :)

Edited by kdchan

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This. We only move forward as fast as we can and stay as transparent as possible to what we we are working on. We have a pretty clear idea of where we want to end up and have no shortage of posts illu

Thanks, we are really putting in the extra effort including weekends to make the progress we are making. (At least we can do it from home with our families and kitties in this era of game development)

No. Absolutely not. NO.  To be able to actually fire an arrow with ANY degree of accuracy AND damaging power (let alone killing), archers were often stationary. The myth of Legolas is that: FICTION.

Regarding the zoom in and out while you shoot, i personally don't like it, hopefully will be possible to set the camera over the shoulders and totally FPS, more options the better. :)

 

I actually love the zoom. It's not that big, which is fine, otherwise it would give an unfair advantage imo. An over the shoulders camera I would be fine with as an option, because you'll limit yourself with this view. It will be a conscious choice.

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Rofl.. the AOEs with telegraphs? Nice joke..

 

You claimed that there was no arcing on projectiles whatsoever. There's arcing at least on 2 of the projectiles so far.

 

The telegraph and area of effect doesn't change anything to the fact that those projectiles have an arched trajectory afaik.

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You claimed that there was no arcing on projectiles whatsoever. There's arcing at least on 2 of the projectiles so far.

 

The telegraph and area of effect doesn't change anything to the fact that those projectiles have an arched trajectory afaik.

 

You know what I meant, everybody knows what I meant. Are you evolving into a troll?

 

Since you're forcing me to state the obvious... news flash: those AOEs aren't composed of projectiles.

Anyone standing inside the circle gets the damage, there's no real projectile flying in the air and arcing.

Standing in front of the ranger's bow wouldn't stop the AOE from happening, for example.

 

Now look back at my post:

 

"One more very sad thing to note: no arcing on projectiles whatsoever."

projectiles

projectiles

..

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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You know what I meant, everybody knows what I meant. Are you evolving into a troll?

 

Since you're forcing me to state the obvious... news flash: those AOEs aren't composed of projectiles.

Anyone standing inside the circle gets the damage, there's no real projectile flying in the air and arcing.

Standing in front of the ranger's bow wouldn't stop the AOE from happening, for example.

 

Now look back at my post:

 

"One more very sad thing to note: no arcing on projectiles whatsoever."

projectiles

projectiles

..

 

giphy.gif

 

It looks like a projectile to me ("an object propelled through the air, especially one thrown as a weapon") and it seems to be arched ("have the curved shape of an arch").

 

The assumption that the arrow isn't a real object in the game and that it can't be blocked by another object (players, walls) may be correct, but so far I've not read anything coming from the devs implying that it's the case.

Edited by courant101
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It looks like a projectile to me ("an object propelled through the air, especially one thrown as a weapon") and it seems to be arched ("have the curved shape of an arch").

 

Of course they're going to make it look like a projectile. What did you expect, fireworks coming out of the arrow?

 

It's not an assumption, it's obvious that's how those AOE work.

Even if it was an arcing projectile (nope), making the arrow drop based on where you aimed with a telegraph would be the worst way to do it.

We are fully capable of aiming on our own. Whoever is not, should play a different archetype.

 

EDIT: I am not asking them to remove the AOEs. If AOEs were the exception, I would be fine with them.

What makes me angry is the fact that all the other powers are straightforward arrows. One of them, sure... but all of them? Fu*k no.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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Of course they're going to make it look like a projectile. What did you expect, fireworks coming out of the arrow?

 

It's not an assumption, it's obvious that's how those AOE work.

Even if it was an arcing projectile (nope), making the arrow drop based on where you aimed with a telegraph would be the worst way to do it.

We are fully capable of aiming on our own. Whoever is not, should play a different archetype.

 

EDIT: I am not asking them to remove the AOEs. If AOEs were the exception, I would be fine with them.

What makes me angry is the fact that all the other powers are straightforward arrows. One of them, sure... but all of them? Fu*k no.

 

It's disappointing for those who wished to have realistic projectile drop in the game. I would have preferred it that way, but considering the current maximum range for ranged powers, I think that it would not make a noticeable difference in gameplay: lobbing over allies or obstacles would have required a longer travel time anyway. We'll see how it plays out during the test, if I'm correct there are still ranged powers that weren't shown in the preview video, so maybe we'll have a bigger diversity of attacks. And there are always the extra powers coming from promotion classes... fingers crossed. 

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Hm, I'm kinda liking the slower combat style. Don't get me wrong, it's still has plenty of chinks and needs to be way smoother, but overall the speed doesn't really bug me. And honestly if you're going for a less mobile ranged character, I can understand that and it can be fun, since complete mobility with range could make her quite OP (not that you're going for Archetype balance, but I think you know what I mean). However, when she switches to melee, I think complete mobility is necessary. I mean, the whole purpose of it is to be able to hold her own for a bit before backing off and switching to her bow and arrows again. It's not a long-standing form (unless she promotes to make it more so) and exists only to give her a chance to survive and escape to a safe distance. So I definitely think mobility is a must. Stationary with a bow, mobile with blades.

 

Just my two cents, loving the progress ACE <3

 

Oh, and out of curiosity: smoothing out combat is obvious and I'd be surprised (and a little put off) if a dev came on and said "Nope! This is what the end's gonna look like!" Obviously there will be changes, but I wanna know something. Is the end-goal for combat going to be much faster than this, or is the speed of combat going to be about the same (with smoother transitions and bringing skills down to spec, of course)? Are certain Archetypes going to be faster in combat that others, or will there be skills in the trees specifically oriented towards speeding up powers and normal attacks? I know you guys mentioned increases to movement speed, but attack speed? I don't think I've seen that mentioned.

Thanks, we are really putting in the extra effort including weekends to make the progress we are making. (At least we can do it from home with our families and kitties in this era of game development)

 

Everyone always pushes, speed, speed more speed! Which is amusing in many cases because we have many attacks that are .4s and .6s long for some of the Archetypes.  Any less than that and you might as well not animate. When you compare us to the the Blade & Soul / BDO end of the spectrum we are going to seem slow, because we are aiming for a much longer TTK than 3-5 seconds. (see courant101's post)

 

We are trying to make the different Archetypes feel differently paced.

 

Until we build tech for what I have dubbed "stalling" we are going to feel a bit herky jerky for the melee guys. Unfortunately we had to pull the Engineer working on it off so we could ensure we got enough tech time on the destruction tech for Siege Perilous. Have no fear, he will be back on it soonish and I'm hoping things will be much smoother once we have that tech.

 

 

Well I think they commit to exactly what they said they want to do. When I read the combat FAQ that was published more than a year ago, it seems to me that they're still aiming for the same goal, which is as you mention a mix between strategy/tactics and action combat.

 

Some players who are used to tab-targeting and find it too hard to aim by themselves may not like the combat. And some players who are used to Quake / Darkfall may find it too slow. But afaik the devs always said they were trying something new and not SB or DF 2.0. There are plenty of games that offer full tab-target or at the opposite extremely mobile /action focused combat.

 

 

"1. DOES COMBAT USE TAB-TARGETING?

No. We’ve tried to make combat in Crowfall a little more action-combat focused, than your traditional MMO.  For instance, we have “dashes” that you use to avoid attacks, as opposed to a passive (randomized) dodge system.  Finding the right balance on this one has been extremely challenging from a design perspective, but we think we’ve found a mid-point. Hopefully you’ll agree."

 

"4. HOW WILL COMBAT “FEEL” IN CROWFALL?

In deciding what we want combat to “look and feel like,” we are drawing a lot of our inspiration from other recent MMOs. We love the idea of action-combat – but we have to make sure the game doesn’t get too “twitchy” (i.e. require lightning fast reflexes or too much button-mashing).

Combat has certain elements that are similar to Wildstar (our movement includes things like sprints, dashes, and double jumps) and other elements that are similar to TERA (combo attacks that have short “locked” animation sequences chains which you can opt to continue or break, for a cost.)

The result – when combined with our voxel terrain and physics based movement systems – is combat sequences that looks more fluid, feel more visceral and require more tactical thinking."

 

 

Lol, thanks for the quote. (saved me looking for it) This has been the goal all along, we aren't trying to make a street fighter online and we aren't trying to make a tab target rotational game. (There are plenty of those on the market) Everytime I see a BDO/B&S comment I wince, do you really want to potentially lose your gear based off of a 5 second engagement? I know I would be disgruntled if I was 100-0 in a single KD.

 

We are still shooting for this goal, and will continue to aim for it as fast as we can get the tech and playtime. Each Milestone things should feel smoother, we just can't build it overnight.

 

 

As to my tab target comment, I guess I wasn't being clear. I'm fully aware of what tab target combat is. The pace at which combat moves and the stationary nature of combat effectively renders combat similar to tab target combat, in that it requires almost no aim if you are mostly shooting at stationary targets. The enormous cone size of melee attacks creates a similar lack of aiming required for melee attacks, but this is a separate issue that will likely be resolved upon the implementation of friendly fire.

 

Try to imagine a fight between two rangers at a moderate distance to understand what I mean, or a melee skirmish with a Ranger firing in at a distance. If they aren't moving (and currently if they're shooting or fighting, they're not moving) it's trivial to hit them, akin to tab target combat in difficulty. If instead, the Ranger  was moving at a 25% or 50% slow while shooting, or the melee combatants were only sometimes completely stopping movement for particular attacks, they would be a decent level of challenge to hit, and I believe it would be a much more entertaining game, and still very far from too twitchy.

 

 

 

 

 

I disagree. Tab / Soft target systems make it so much easier to keep up 100% DPS time, as well as turn the power tray into a rotational minigame. You use powers based on their cooldowns and not what is tactically required. (Also chance of miss is based on RNG not hand eye skill

 

Strafing left right while charging up an attack, in an online environment would create an environment where everyone HAS to do this or else they get hit. "why does everyone nonstop step left and right in your game?" "yeaaaaaa" Once you have played an evening on the Ranger this will make more sense. No one seems to understand yet how difficult it is to land a projectile hit on a target at 40-60m without the server helping you.

 

 

One more very sad thing to note: no arcing on projectiles whatsoever.

 

We tried it, and it just didn't feel good. The arrows felt too floaty and the max range for the Ranger felt like we weren't getting any benefit out of such a short arc. (except tons of misses) She already has enough potential to miss without adding another layer ontop of it.

 

 

BTW I didn't mention this in the video, there is a max charge time with all charged attacks of 2x the time it takes to charge them. (You can only hold the bow at max pull so long) At that point the bow will fire, so make sure you are on target if you intend to use it!

Thomas Blair
ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.
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On 3/12/2016 at 9:17 PM, thomasblair said:

I disagree. Tab / Soft target systems make it so much easier to keep up 100% DPS time, as well as turn the power tray into a rotational minigame. You use powers based on their cooldowns and not what is tactically required. (Also chance of miss is based on RNG not hand eye skill

 

T

 

Edited by Effeh
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Blair, you decided to nearly replicate Tera's combat and yet make it slower than base animation speed of Tera. Are you aware of one of the most cited reasons for people not even making level 20 (3-6 hours of gametime) in Tera? It was how slow all the attacks were. It was essentially spammed on threads on mmorpg.com, tera's forums, and elsewhere. Crowfall is SLOWER. Imagine I'm playing in SP in a few weeks, next month, etc. and someone in my BDO guild (95%+ played Tera before) ask me how Crowfall is.

 

Random guildy: "What you up to Scio?"

Scio: "Just playing some alpha Crowfall since the test servers are up."

Random guildy: "oh I heard of that game, how is it?"

Scio: "you played Tera, right?"

Random guildy: "Yea, mained a slayer."

Scio: "Imagine Tera in super slow-mo."

Random guildy: "Oh..."

Scio: "Yep, not really worth it. Hope they change it."

 

What happened to the Funism (or whatever it was called)?

 

You really think you can pull 100k+ active players with slow combat?

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Ah,bummer,would have really loved to see bullet drop.Just think of the possible tactical value! Would love to see a volley of arrows from behind the lines to the back lines of your enemies!

 

In any case truly thanks for taking your time to answer some of our doubts;would love to ask a ton of questions but i'll limit myself to a few.

Is your ideal outcome of the combat mechanics going to be similar to Tera where the attack itself is what generates movement? If so to what magnitude? Are we going to be hopping around the battlefield or is it going to be heavily reliant of physics and mass,or even to the presence of enemies around you?

 

Also,all up for slow and careful combat,works much better with big groups,much more so with restricted healing,people will think twice before charging without someone with a shield to cover for them.I feel it would probabily reward groups who properly engage in tactics and try to break through or surround your enemies to bypass the melee dudes instead of just spamming attacks.

 

In any case i love the dedication you and the other DEVs are putting in this,and as i will keep trusting my decision of supporting you guys.You are making progress at a breathtaking speed and i can't wait until my new VGA comes around seeing as my old one is not enough for Crowfall.A tragedy,not being able to try the game myself kills me inside.

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@Blair: We're not being jerks for the sake of it here. We all like the features of the game and would like to see it succeed.

This combat, though, feels like a big opportunity that got wasted because of bad decisions.

Stubborn decisions that aren't so rational as you may think.

 

Everyone always pushes, speed, speed more speed! Which is amusing in many cases because we have many attacks that are .4s and .6s long for some of the Archetypes.  Any less than that and you might as well not animate. When you compare us to the the Blade & Soul / BDO end of the spectrum we are going to seem slow, because we are aiming for a much longer TTK than 3-5 seconds.


[...] Everytime I see a BDO/B&S comment I wince, do you really want to potentially lose your gear based off of a 5 second engagement? I know I would be disgruntled if I was 100-0 in a single KD.

 

1. Those things are not even correlated.

TTK != Length of animations or movement.... Decrease the damages and your TTK stands.

 

Strafing left right while charging up an attack, in an online environment would create an environment where everyone HAS to do this or else they get hit. "why does everyone nonstop step left and right in your game?" "yeaaaaaa" Once you have played an evening on the Ranger this will make more sense. No one seems to understand yet how difficult it is to land a projectile hit on a target at 40-60m without the server helping you.

 

2. Completely untrue. Have you ever aimed while changing direction constantly? Either you try to stand still or you keep your momentum while aiming, else you're probably going to miss. If you're scared of this scenario, add a bit of movement slow while aiming, and problem solved. Forcing people to stand still is ridiculous.. How much feedback do you need to realize it?

Anyway, for the sake of arguing, zig-zaging would be 5x better than what we have now.

 

P.S. There are so many other solutions.

Like having some projectiles explode when they hit the ground, so that if a target is zig-zaging you just aim for the ground and hit him:

 

kfcyF2N.gif

 

We tried it, and it just didn't feel good. The arrows felt too floaty and the max range for the Ranger felt like we weren't getting any benefit out of such a short arc. (except tons of misses) She already has enough potential to miss without adding another layer ontop of it.

 

3. Of course if you're artificially limiting ranges, arcing it's going to be mostly useless. Try giving arcing to ONE power or better to normal attacks, reduce their damage and remove ranges or decayment times. You said it's hard to aim at 40m..., so why exactly do you think you have to reduce the range of arrows artificially??

 

First you say that ranges have to be short otherwise ranged archetypes feel too powerful. Then you say that arcing is too hard and it's already hard to hit... which is it? Don't reinvent the wheel. Your solutions to non existent problems are dooming the combat.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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how about allowing to move while shooting, but if one runs while shooting, the reticle gets bigger and the arrow shoots randomy anywhere in the area of the reticle?

thats how some FPS handled it (i remember that way of rooting people in counterstrike). if you stood still, you hit where you aim. if you move and shoot, you hit somewhere around your target.

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Blair, you decided to nearly replicate Tera's combat and yet make it slower than base animation speed of Tera. Are you aware of one of the most cited reasons for people not even making level 20 (3-6 hours of gametime) in Tera? It was how slow all the attacks were. It was essentially spammed on threads on mmorpg.com, tera's forums, and elsewhere. Crowfall is SLOWER. Imagine I'm playing in SP in a few weeks, next month, etc. and someone in my BDO guild (95%+ played Tera before) ask me how Crowfall is.

 

TERA developers probably had the PvE aspect of the game in mind when they created the extremely mobile combat and fast animation speed. It takes a lot of mobility to avoid gigantic monsters' attacks.

 

Crowfall devs are trying to mix realistic elements, making characters' capabilities comparable to what we would expect IRL for a human or a horse (centaur), with fantasy elements like magic that allow players to achieve extraordinary things. "Game of Thrones in a game setting".

 

"Each character has a variety of physics settings, such as mass and drag, which we set on an archetype-by-archetype basis for what we think would make the most sense. We use values that are comparable to what we think a human or a centaur would use, bearing in mind that our human is 2 m tall, runs at 6 m a second (12.2 mph), and can jump 1.5 m in the air in full plate armor. Quite the beast!"

 

TERA is a great game and it's cool that the devs get some inspiration from it, but I think that the mobility and capacities of the characters are totally different than what we should expect in Crowfall.

 

If they consider that the combat still need to get improved, I'm sure that they will keep working on it. The devs probably want as hard as we do to have a thrilling combat since it's crucial for any PvP game, and I'm sure they're still putting lot of effort to get it right. They can't reasonably change everything and though, with the budget and the number of developers, but some tweaks here and there can most likely help with the current issues.

Edited by courant101
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If they consider that the combat isn't fun enough, I'm sure that they will keep working on it. The devs probably want as hard as we do to have a thrilling combat since it's crucial for any PvP game, and I'm sure they're still putting lot of effort to improve it. They can't reasonably change everything though, because of the budget and the number of developers, but some tweaks here and there can most likely help with the current issues.

 

Let's stop saying that a fluid** combat with everything we asked for is expensive. I don't care if animations look silly when combat feels right.

Turning a couple of knobs would make the combat much better, but they're prioritizing how the game "looks" compared to how it plays out...

 

**Yes, fluid, not twitchy, because you know... there's a middle ground and we already know Crowfall will be NOT twitchy. Right now it's STATIC.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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As a final addendum, I'd like to know your thoughts on the following video from about 7 minutes onwards (I've linked directly to the time of relevance, but the whole video is good if you have the time.)

 

https://youtu.be/8RGzzS1jGJc?t=428

 

Essentially some people levelled a similar criticism against TERA of rooted combat, which I believe this video accurately dispels. Unfortunately the animation times in Crowfall are much longer, and move you a much, much shorter distance, I believe making the criticism fair in this case. The described behavior in the video of walking up to a mob, or player, and merely pressing 1,2,3, is exactly how it feels to play Crowfall right now most of the time.

 

 

Indeed, that video was passed around the ACE studio sometime last year after some robust forum conversation.  I believe the author even made an appearance here.

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