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silk

How To Ruin A Pvp Game. . . And Other Topics

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well said indeed Silk...

 

/golfclap

 

will you have my cyberbabies?

 

oh yeah...and godshand...you got a problem with Pansies? all our Events were well catered...

 

;)


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let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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Not even touching combat mechanics in this thread, simply risk/reward and how it effects incentives to pvp.  Since we have no idea yet on combat mechanics, I'm staying out of it.  Only concerned that the crafting/resource/gear system could get too complicated/long and become an impediment to pursuing all PVP opportunities.


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I guess some good points are made here

 

I would add the original deathspam from sb to the chat bar

 

random peerat was killed by Lord Hillbilly


Know me and fear me. My embrace is for all and is patient but sure. The dead can always find you. My hand is everywhere - there is no door I cannot pass, nor guardian who can withstand me.

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I was thinking the same things after reading all of the full loot vs partial loot threads. I'm glad someone had already posted about it.

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I agree, and would like to add some thoughts.

maybe its possible to rebalance the "reward". Dont put too much value into the gear, but rather into resources. I seem to recall a game were the raw materials for crafting decent gear was of more value to the progressed player than the gear, but not for average Joe out there.

Add line of sight/hearing to npc guards patrolling towns or roads in case of theft/murder/flagging=) But make the guards killable but should be far from easy or soloable.

Make trade between alts harder.

Add small rng and hard to predict elements across the board.

Give the player more elements to use as tools other than weapon/armor/spells/levels.

add fizzle to spells, critical/normal/glancing hits/ chokepoints in case of few vs lots. etc....

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i really like the points made by the op. 

i would like to add some thoughts i made by my self, about sandbox pvp.

 

- the power-level-problem was announced already. a new player should stand a chance against an veteran. healthpools are often a problem in level-based character development. i think it should be only reflected by refinement/extension of skills. instead of simple healthbars i would like to see a damage-system like they  announced for star-citizen (fps part).

- player density: what would stop players from griefing fresh characters? safe zones...are lame, are they? so we need a vast world where you'd never know where you meet other peoples. spawn new players at somewhat random locations. and npc's travelling the world and made them harder to distinguish from players. if you never met one, how do you know their name?

- no general chats. if you want to meet and talk to new players, go to a city and meet some. if you're looking for some new guildies, recruit them in a city.

- character development in a very slow process. start somewhat advanced and only progress in small steps. work for a new attribute or skill. if you die, you'll loose your current progress :)

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TL:DR

 

Don't create reasons to avoid pvp, even when outnumbered or underleveled/geared.

 

Re-equipping and getting back out to pvp should be cheap and easy.

 

The combat effectiveness delta between low and high levels, gear, training should be kept very small.

 

Combat should be rewarding to the victors without punishing the losers.

 

It should be fairly easy and fairly cheap for players to fully level and full gear many characters, in contrast to every other PVE MMO on the market.

 

The "treadmill" should be on the city/territory conquest side, should be player driven, and should be on the guild as a group, not on any individual, so that both casual and hardcore players have a reason to stay.

 

Risk/reward for territorial control should be higher than anywhere else, but not so high that loss of a city/territory leads people to stop playing.

Thanks for that at the end! I agree

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I think the main reason to PvP is to deny my opponent happiness but I'm just a sociopath from WM. I know I'm on the far side of extremism for the aspects I want but I do hope they listen to the SB/EVE/other pvp centric MMO's and give us some of the aspects we want. We are the same people who have two or three accounts for years and play the game even after it's actually dead. I know you make more money from the mass appeal and carebear approach of WoW but I just want a game to play again where I know I have managed to ruin somebodys night by taking away all of their stuff...

 

 

mmmmmm hate tells are the delicacy of the SB cuisine.

Qft

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I think the trick it to be able to leverage risk.

 

Where in there is always a cheap way to play, even thou it is a long way from the best or the strongest.

EVE Online captured this perfectly.  Where a Frigate cost next to nothing to get, and while it's combat prowess was limited, it had a clear and defined usage.

Buzz around the big ships, prevent them from leaving.

 

And as your income grew in the game, you could afford to buy bigger and better ships.  Of course you could bet the bank and get a better ship earlier, as you could have the money, but not necessarily the income to easily replace it.

What was important in a system like this is that bigger ships were more powerful, but filled a completely different role then smaller ships.

That, and carrying the risk of losing your ship when your killed.

 

They had fire power, but they could only really bring it to bare against other big ships, as small ships were too fast and small to hit.  Now the small ships couldn't do any real damage to the big ships, but they were never really designed to.

So you didn't really run into this problem of having more powerful/expensive stuff resulted in you having more combat potential then thou's who did not.

 

 

How this could translate to a medieval game like Crowfall, could be that having quality armor and weapons allows you to go toe to toe with other heavy's, but in turn you lose mobility and movement speed.  Your tanky but slow.  And so while lesser equipped players may not be really able to hurt you, your too slow to hurt them either.

 

Thou ranged classes kind of puts a dent in this idea.

So yeah, it's a complicated problem to solve in a setting like this.

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Some great points from OP and others responding =)  Risk vrs Rewards, a system that can help encourage players to get back to the fight and try again would be great to see as well. I do believe though that if you have a good team of players working together, they shouldn't be penalized by some artificial methods that magically make their future chances of success diminished.

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There still needs to be effective resource sinks that continues to remove farmed resources from the game economy. Some net negative loss is important to the longterm life of the game.

 

Yep!  Growth and entropy go hand in hand.


"Darken the moon and conceal the stars; our Light will never be extinguished." - The Tome of the First Flame

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The Lantern Watch - A Crowfall-first guild. Welcome Home. Join us @ http://crowfall.shivtr.com

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There still needs to be effective resource sinks that continues to remove farmed resources from the game economy. Some net negative loss is important to the longterm life of the game.

 

Agreed.  I'd prefer to see city/siege/territory control be large sinks, and crafting/re-arm/re-equip be comparatively very tiny, perhaps with training/advancement a little more than equipment, but still FAR less than city building.  Otherwise I'm afraid the potential cost of losing in PVP becomes too high.


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Everyone complaining about open PvP should read this thread. I feel like they do not understand what is expected. Too many have been brainwashed by the WoW theme park games were gear is everything. I would not want to loose my uber broardsword of dragonslaying either. If there is no uber breadsword of dragonslaying  though and getting my basic gear back is reletively painless all of a sudden its not as bad. 

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Everyone complaining about open PvP should read this thread. I feel like they do not understand what is expected. Too many have been brainwashed by the WoW theme park games were gear is everything. I would not want to loose my uber broardsword of dragonslaying either. If there is no uber breadsword of dragonslaying  though and getting my basic gear back is reletively painless all of a sudden its not as bad. 

 

Agreed.  This was the thread that opened my eyes and I keep sharing it with newcomers to this forum who open up a can of worms they had no idea existed here.


"Darken the moon and conceal the stars; our Light will never be extinguished." - The Tome of the First Flame

LW_sig_concept_7b_lighter_zpsu0zpsinn.jp


The Lantern Watch - A Crowfall-first guild. Welcome Home. Join us @ http://crowfall.shivtr.com

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Bravo Silk. How about a mercenary mechanic where guilds can post for random players to join them for a specific battle, say a siege , giving casual players a chance for gvg play they might not otherwise get and small guilds a chance to boost numbers for important battles and try out prospective members.


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Completely agree, fantastic post!!  :lol:

 

One of the biggest pluses in SB was also one of its biggest flaws.  Playing to Crush with a single zerg nation taking over the world often left no recourse for players to recuperate after a massive defeat.  This often lead to server stagnation, players being worn down over time not being able to compete at all against an overpowering nation and eventually server activity declining.  I really look forward to seeing if the siege system will be all-encompassing and allow even defeated guilds and nations the power to re-arm and strike back against their foes, even without a home base to strike from as was required in SB.  It's basically, "OK, sure,  you guys won and took our stuff.  GG.  But watch out.  We'll be back."  lol :ph34r:


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                         ~For the Honor and Memory of Ahz Badaxe~

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I don't have a good explanation as to why this is but its been my experience that little to no death penalty gives the attacker in a siege environment a significant advantage.  It's been better to take players from defense and devote them to assaulting another position rather than attempt a defense which almost always turned out futile.  I've learned this behavior from GW2, WAR, and DoAC.  From what I've seen so far this game is mostly about territory control and conquest, not open world flowing PVP. 

After reading up on Shadowbane (I only played it for the first few months) it looks like the main benefit the defenders of a siege have is that they're able to regroup quickly in their city.  I would guess that if the attackers can do the same it's system would have broken down, just like GW2's.

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