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How To Ruin A Pvp Game. . . And Other Topics

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How to ruin a PVP game

 

 

1) Buggy client......lag lag/sync issues......no one ever wants to lose to a crash or lagging out so hard they can't do anything.

 

2) P2W

 

3) Horrible balancing........if there is something way to OP adjust it .....in PVP games people will roll what currently works best....failure to make fast changes to race/class powers healing/damage/etc just shows a lack of caring imo.

 

4) bad game mechanics........no one wants to sit around with nothing to do....or guard 5 mines hoping one gets attacked."......to realize I've been in game for 5 hours and got 1 fight out of it.

 

5) letting carebeArs make decisions......this is a PVP game.....we don't care about adding more armor dye colors...while the game has long standing bugs. ( like factions in UO pre age of shadows."...taming get bugged there's a next day hot fix.....factions strongholds broken for yeArs....not one thing done for over a year.)

 

6) let ubisoft close the game down........


I turn dough into $$$ .....The Pizza King of QFT

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I hope Todd hasn't forgotten.. One of the things that made Shadowbane such an amazing game (it's way up there) was that you could get a character to max level and max trains fully geared out (if your guild liked you and had the resources) within a day or two if you tried and 3-4 days if you were lazy about it.

 

This meant that you could experiment and have fun when you weren't on your man character (aka preferred pvp class). If I wanted to play a grind game where I have to grind out xp to "level up" or are forced to "wait" for my skills to go up over time then I might as well go play World of custarden Warcraft.

 

Even in Shadowbane the best cheat gear was +8 defense vs the best +9 defense?

 

I know they like to paint this project as "For The Players" and not "For The Man".. but if this turns into a grind fest for skills or gear you know where their ultimate intention was..

 

Investors like grind fests.

Edited by thenebrosity

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lol ok.. I wonder if I'll still be able to steal directly from people's inventories.. hrmmm

;)Twitch - Twitter

RIP DOC GONZO

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I hope Todd hasn't forgotten.. One of the things that made Shadowbane such an amazing game (it's way up there) was that you could get a character to max level and max trains fully geared out within a day or two if you tried and 3-4 days if you were lazy about it.

 

This mean that you could experiment and have fun when you weren't on your man character (aka preferred pvp class). If I wanted to play a grind game where I have to grind out xp to "level up" or are forced to "wait" for my skills to go up over time then I might as well go play World of custarden Warcraft.

 

Even in Shadowbane the best cheat gear was +8 defense vs the best +9 defense?

 

I know they like to paint this project as "For The Players" and not "For The Man".. but if this turns into a grind fest for skills or gear you know where their ultimate intention was..

 

Investors like grind fests.

 

I don't think shadowbane struck a good balance in this department to be honest, but then there was also considerable amount of variation. Part of the problem in SB is that the PvE gameplay isn't the greatest part of SB, and in that department there's considerable room for improvement. This also sort results to that the 'leveling' has to be a bit of a grind, no matter the length, and certainly discourages making the progression curve very long.

 

I think there are multiple different models that are usable, but I don't think the SB model is ideal.

 

Also I'd like to point out that the 8defense vs 9defense gear isn't a good example of gear balance, since the example is super misleading. Basically the CTH formula in shadowbane has a 19x multiplier on character performance and players would compete for having the higher value. From this perspective a 12.5% (err.. the enchantment is 12.5% bigger but since the items also have a base defense value (which was also a bit higher) the final difference was still less than 12.5%) increase in your gear based variable makes a huge difference, as it can actually result to a 1800% increase in damage output (which could also translate to a smaller value by forcing the opponent to change stance.. Anyway that's a whole new topic, basically the SB model of CTH has to be very steep to create platform that can support the metastructure around it, so the stances work, defense cuts have their roles and so on, it gets complicated quickly)

 

In anycase this is very important aspect. How to manage this character progression. I'm not for a grindfest, but I'm for the possibility of improvement for the character even after the first 72 hours of gameplay etc.

 

But what is the proper model? You could start by chopping up the progression related mechanics to phases creation phase, initial levelup, selection promotion class, getting to competitive in terms of being able to fight with those who've made more progress (Or at least making a difference in encounters), setting up a mid-term peak level / stage - for an example those 72 hours of gameplay required to reach point where character is fully competitive, but after that would be the possibility of gaining marginal advantages with additional gameplay. So you don't just get to a fullstop, but instead a slower paced progression of some kind. Often the "final level" is sort of like better than the other levels, which encourages grinding towards it, which can be problematic, anyway you could have a "final" level which isn't really final, after which the type of the progression changes and becomes considerably less impactful.

 

SB example:

This though wasn't the case in shadowbane, but still if I remember correctly you could apply the 4th discipline only until reaching level 75. Also that's kind of complicated since some builds would use all 4 disciplines actively, where as others wouldn't, so the value of that final level was also dependent on character. So in SB terms you could consider a model where you cut the skillpoints, attribute points gained after level 60 or 70 to 50% of what they are, and unlock the 4th discipline at that point (60 or 70 that is), and then increase the number of XP points required to reach 75. So in otherwords the last 15 or 5 levels would be more likely vanity levels, not so much giving distinct advantage.

 

 

Overall this kind of things require very careful adjustment. I don't think going for the easiest solution produces the best results in this case.

Edited by Kaiho

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To Thenebrosity's point, I'm in violent agreement.

 

If your economic system is designed so that gear is fairly cheap, but cities/building assets/fortifications/sieges are fairly expensive, you can absolutely sustain an active playerbase while allowing your character progression system to be measured in days, rather than months.  

 

I think the devs understand this on some level already, since they are going for servers and worlds that have a timer on them from the beginning.  The key will be to keep the fighting fresh, and a big contributor to that is giving guilds lots of viable spec group options.  If you can't level and gear many different characters so that you can field many different kinds of forces on the field, it wont matter if the world stays fresh.  You'll grow bored of the same fight over and over even if its on different servers.  The easier it is to make new characters, the more people will experiment and try new/different strategies on the field, and the healthier your pvp meta dynamic will be.  12 archetypes, 3 promotion classes each, plus disciplines, thats a lot of avenues for creating different character builds.  Would be a huge shame if you couldn't explore most of them, even as a casual player.


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I'm on the fence about toon progression time. 

6 months seems like the maximum acceptable time for a non-subscription player's toon to max out, even for long progression. That gives players some freedom to experiment without being tempted to reroll just to hide bad behavior. It also makes flavor of the month bandwagons less likely. And a large guild that keeps records or even Wikis should help narrow down options. Also with subs being the Devs main source of income from established players, it makes sense for them to encourage subscriptions.


I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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One thing that is being ignored is just how fair the Crowfall passive skill system is.

 

In SB, you got power leveled up in a PL group because you had to- everyone else was doing it, and if you tried to level in a more conventional way you would just fall behind and you wouldn't really be able to compete, and you would get regularly harassed or ganked while trying to level besides that.

 

In crowfall, you will advance slowly with the passive skill system, and so will everyone else. It really doesn't matter one bit that it takes 6 months to fully max out your skills- after 2 weeks you will be playing with other players who have had the same 2 weeks of passive training and everyone will be on the same level. Saying you have to wait 6 months is a silly argument, obviously people aren't really going to wait- they are going to play immediately and it'll be day 1 characters vs other day 1 characters, and a week later it'll be 1 week characters vs other 1 week characters.

 

In the long run, maybe after a week, maybe after a month, maybe after 3 months you might decide that you screwed up your character.  Maybe you took some runes that are actually really bad for your play style, or maybe you just want to play a completely different archetype, it's 1 month after release of the game. You have to make a decision- do you start playing your new character immediately, or wait for it to "catch up" on passive skills?

 

Here is the thing though- for this second character, you have an immense advantage! At this point, the game has been out for a month. The popular builds are known, the successful builds are known, and you can create a character with this useful data instead of just randomly making a class you think looks cool. If you could just instantly catch up, or catch up in 2-4 days (like shadowbane power leveling) everyone would do it! There would be no real investment in your character because it would be so easy to switch and re-roll. Instead there is a price, that price is being behind on passive skill training. In the end, it's probably worth re-rolling if your new build is significantly better, but there is a price you pay. That price needs to exist- it's the whole "consequences" thing. Making new characters all the time without suffering any consequences goes against the basic plan of Crowfall.

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In crowfall, you will advance slowly with the passive skill system, and so will everyone else. It really doesn't matter one bit that it takes 6 months to fully max out your skills- after 2 weeks you will be playing with other players who have had the same 2 weeks of passive training and everyone will be on the same level. Saying you have to wait 6 months is a silly argument, obviously people aren't really going to wait- they are going to play immediately and it'll be day 1 characters vs other day 1 characters, and a week later it'll be 1 week characters vs other 1 week characters.

 

And what about new players. Say I have some friends I'd like to get in game which has been out for 2 years?

 

That's part of what killed DFO: after some time, old players were advantaged so new players just did not bother. Hell, old players did not bother to try to get new players in: "Yeah, the game is good but you'll have to wait at least a month before you can hope to do things in PvP. 6 month if you dedicate your life and your first-born before you can be good enough".

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And what about new players. Say I have some friends I'd like to get in game which has been out for 2 years?

 

That's part of what killed DFO: after some time, old players were advantaged so new players just did not bother. Hell, old players did not bother to try to get new players in: "Yeah, the game is good but you'll have to wait at least a month before you can hope to do things in PvP. 6 month if you dedicate your life and your first-born before you can be good enough".

 

New players will have all the same advantages as an old player who re-rolls- they will have tons of forum data to look at, youtube videos, theorycrafting, etc. They can build an optimized character, as much as possible based on the last 2 years of the game. After a few months, they will probably have one of the strongest possible characters for the meta game, if they do their homework.

 

If the player lacks that sort of patience, I would say he is playing the wrong game- there is always counter-strike, or DOTA, if you want a game where everyone starts at the exact same level and there are no long term consequences for anything.

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New players will have all the same advantages as an old player who re-rolls- they will have tons of forum data to look at, youtube videos, theorycrafting, etc. They can build an optimized character, as much as possible based on the last 2 years of the game. After a few months, they will probably have one of the strongest possible characters for the meta game, if they do their homework.

 

If the player lacks that sort of patience, I would say he is playing the wrong game- there is always counter-strike, or DOTA, if you want a game where everyone starts at the exact same level and there are no long term consequences for anything.

 

So, another individual grinding game instead of a guild based one. Color me not interested anymore if that's the case.

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So, another individual grinding game instead of a guild based one. Color me not interested anymore if that's the case.

 

There is no grinding involved when it comes to passive skill training.  Read the FAQ.

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To ruin any game, you only need to put hardcore in charge. Once they are in charge, they design the game that would only appeal to them, leaving 99% of player base without a way to participate.

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