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Here's how I think you "fix" the feel of combat, Ace.


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After last night's play test there were a number of complaints about the feeling of combat.

 

I think a lot of this was because people were playing Ranger for the first time. The ranger is a class based on mobility but most abilities root the ranger in place while charging or waiting for the animation to finish. 

 

Ultimately I think EVERY class needs to be able to default attack (left click) while moving the same as the knight/champion were allowed to last night. 

 

I played the knight quite a bit last night after trying out the ranger and the knight felt so fluid while being able to attack on the run.

 

Ultimately here's what I think you need to strive for:

 

- Instant Default attacks can be used at "full movement speed"

- Charged attacks or special attacks can be used at "walking or strafing movement speed". 

 

Instant default attacks would be like the knights left click, confessors left click, champions left click, legio's left click, etc. For the Ranger I think you need to let them pop off low damage arrows on the run but if you start charging the arrow THAT is when you move into a walking/strafing speed. This allows you to still have some movement while using a special attack, combo, or charged attack. 

 

I believe the dev's said it before, but the reason you don't want ALL attacks to be able to execute at full movement speed is you'll end up with all the lame zig zagging in combat that just looks really funky. Some people like this (Darkfall rings a bell) however I know that's something these developers don't want to do. I think they want this game to be more like Tera as far as aimed combat goes and not quite so twitchy as say Darkfall.

 

Anyways, that's my 2 cents on the subject. 

Blazzen <Lords of Death>

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ESO pretty much did this. Charge/Channel abilities reduced your movement speed and left you vulnerable (although you could cancel this with your dodge). I think animation locks really lend themselves to games like Dark Soul or Fighting games, where you're fighting limited number of opponents. BDO also managed animation lock, but there is also an absurd amount of mobility in that game. Animation lock can quickly become a clown fiesta once you throw 50+ opponents on the screen, since you're likely to be punished for any ability you use.

 

Basically I'd like to see:

  • Animation lock on the most powerful abilities (stuns, knock downs, extremely hard hitting abilities)
  • Movement penalty on all the other abilities.
  • Options to break out of animation lock for a cost.

Obviously if I'm swinging my sword/mace/whatever around, I'm not going to be running at full speed. I won't be standing around like a tree either tho. There needs to be a middle ground.

Edited by helix
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Yeah I feel theres definitely a good middle ground they can find somewhere between how they envision it and how we would like it.

 

For the Ranger specifically I think allowing movement with the LMB attack would work in your idea, don't think they need to add a low damage instant. or perhaps Rapid shots could be that ability because it sort of acts like an instant because it starts doing damage right away and not having to wait to charge up. Making the charges/channels faster should be a part of this as well I think.

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Yeah I feel theres definitely a good middle ground they can find somewhere between how they envision it and how we would like it.

 

For the Ranger specifically I think allowing movement with the LMB attack would work in your idea, don't think they need to add a low damage instant. or perhaps Rapid shots could be that ability because it sort of acts like an instant because it starts doing damage right away and not having to wait to charge up. Making the charges/channels faster should be a part of this as well I think.

 

I should've been more specific regarding the ranger.

 

Their melee kit should allow full movement with default attack.

 

The RANGED kit should allow an instant shot arrow that's low damage (since you aren't charging it) if you just tap the left click. If you hold the left click to charge it then you move into a waling/strafing speed but get more damage. 

Blazzen <Lords of Death>

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Yeah I feel theres definitely a good middle ground they can find somewhere between how they envision it and how we would like it.

 

For the Ranger specifically I think allowing movement with the LMB attack would work in your idea, don't think they need to add a low damage instant. or perhaps Rapid shots could be that ability because it sort of acts like an instant because it starts doing damage right away and not having to wait to charge up. Making the charges/channels faster should be a part of this as well I think.

Ranger also have some weird after cast going on that needs to get fixed.

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I think the sluggish feel was more universal and generic last night, although I agree the Ranger definitely felt that way as well. Movement in combat just felt really slow, on all classes I tried. It may be the dizzy changes or maybe combat movement speed was reduced as well?

 

I had so many bugs last night with weapons that wouldn't equip and powers simply not functioning at all I can't be sure of a lot. I'll pay very close attention Saturday assuming I can get home in time to test.

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Basically ACE, don't try to reinvent the wheel when it comes to combat. You're innovative enough because of the way campaigns work. Combat needs to feel familiar to MMORPG players. Your innovative draw is already there - go too innovative with too many aspects and you may lose a lot of appeal. 

Blazzen <Lords of Death>

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Basically ACE, don't try to reinvent the wheel when it comes to combat. You're innovative enough because of the way campaigns work. Combat needs to feel familiar to MMORPG players. Your innovative draw is already there - go too innovative with too many aspects and you may lose a lot of appeal. 

This is good advice, the game itself is innovative, combat doesn't need to be reinvented. If your going to give Knights the plethora of tools they have to keep a Ranger within melee then you need to give rangers some form of way to create distance that can't be closed or negated in the blink of an eye and some for of a ranged mobile attack. Right now it felt as though you can preform a couple ranged attacks and then you may as well just switch to melee and try to go toe to toe because if a Knight wants you to be in melee range, you will be in melee range and there's nothing you can do about it. If you do manage to create some form of distance (GL doing it) the moment you stop to start firing off some shots he will be on your ass.

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I agree with having the left click on all arch types to be done on the fly, BUT, we have to be careful here.  If they make all skills useable when moving, then we are back to a twitch fest, face rolling melee game.  

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This is good advice, the game itself is innovative, combat doesn't need to be reinvented. If your going to give Knights the plethora of tools they have to keep a Ranger within melee then you need to give rangers some form of way to create distance that can't be closed or negated in the blink of an eye and some for of a ranged mobile attack. Right now it felt as though you can preform a couple ranged attacks and then you may as well just switch to melee and try to go toe to toe because if a Knight wants you to be in melee range, you will be in melee range and there's nothing you can do about it. If you do manage to create some form of distance (GL doing it) the moment you stop to start firing off some shots he will be on your ass.

Yeah like I posted in the Ranger feedback thread I think Ranger needs a AoE or Cone ability that either stuns or slows those around her so she can better regain range. That trap ability she has works ok for this but can be spotty to get it off properly because its a ground target so you have to click twice to use it. So just a quick little ability to help facilitate escaping would do wonders I think. 

 

My experience last night with the Ranger was that sure you can start at range and pick targets but once things start to get really hectic within the keep and close quarters the Ranger is really handcuffed by having to stand there charging her shoots while everyone around her just dances around doing damage at will. Now sure the easy answer is that's when you are suppose to go melee mode but really that's a bandaid to me. If I play a Ranged class I want to play ranged not be forced into a different style when things get tough. As an option melee mode is fine but I should be able to be viable when staying in Range mode, IMO.

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Lmb, you should be able to move for all archetypes imo

 

Some skills should let you move... Like the champion #5 roots you... It should let you move as you yell and go enraged.... Just like the knight #5 shout lets you kove for the damage shield..

 

 

So ita kinda a mixed bag... I think other skills, mainly damage &cc skills, should be locked to their animation, which should have some movement built into them..

 

 

 

Basically smite combat...

Edited by Ziz

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I agree with having the left click on all arch types to be done on the fly, BUT, we have to be careful here. If they make all skills useable when moving, then we are back to a twitch fest, face rolling melee game.

 

The majority of knight and champion play is face roll and flow chart. The difference being face rolling while your falling asleep for the next animation to play out, or being fully engaged.

 

Personally I think the game SHOULD be more twitchy. Maybe not quite as twitchy as dfo, but close.

Edited by helix
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While I agree that some changes need to happen to some primary abilities to make some classes slightly more mobile, I don't necessarily agree that all the archetypes need to be moving at 100% combat speed on their primary, or even at a reduced speed.

 

I believe that if we are to be rooted for each primary attack it should be no longer than about 1.25s-1.5s (1.5s is probably still too long for a primary attack. FFXIV anyone?). Any longer and it will feel like the Ranger does now.  Very sluggish.  I don't feel very rooted as a confessor, and after playing ranger I feel extremely mobile on her (yes it could be more mobile but the Fessor feels pretty good compared to the Ranger).  The quick cast times on the primary for the fessor lets you fire off and move if you need to, or cast one or two shots, adjust, then fire a few more.

 

With Champs and Knights having 100% combat speed on their primaries now I did notice a lot more up time on me when I was their target, but was still able to escape most of the time if I needed to (dat Knight snare is real now, just sayin').  Being able to keep my distance, maximize potential targets, and damage output didn't feel too difficult with the rooted abilities on the fessor, especially if you have team mates able to peel those pesky melee players if they are being persistent. 

 

The Ranger definitely needs some love in the mobility department, as well as the Legionnaire on their primary. 100% mobility for everyone on the primary? I don't think it's required.

Edited by destrin

"Float like a Butterfly.... Sting like a Misplaced Decimal Point" - Xarrayne 2018

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Yeah like I posted in the Ranger feedback thread I think Ranger needs a AoE or Cone ability that either stuns or slows those around her so she can better regain range. That trap ability she has works ok for this but can be spotty to get it off properly because its a ground target so you have to click twice to use it. So just a quick little ability to help facilitate escaping would do wonders I think. 

 

My experience last night with the Ranger was that sure you can start at range and pick targets but once things start to get really hectic within the keep and close quarters the Ranger is really handcuffed by having to stand there charging her shoots while everyone around her just dances around doing damage at will. Now sure the easy answer is that's when you are suppose to go melee mode but really that's a bandaid to me. If I play a Ranged class I want to play ranged not be forced into a different style when things get tough. As an option melee mode is fine but I should be able to be viable when staying in Range mode, IMO.

From the ranged tray, the tray switch required prior to being able to use the escape buried combo, or the 1 blink escape, just feels cumbersome. The timers are long on those powers already so I don't see a real issue with making them far easier to execute reliably.

 

That might help this issue. I agree it's an issue, a bit.

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From the ranged tray, the tray switch required prior to being able to use the escape buried combo, or the 1 blink escape, just feels cumbersome. The timers are long on those powers already so I don't see a real issue with making them far easier to execute reliably.

 

That might help this issue. I agree it's an issue, a bit.

Disengage I think you're referring to? Yeah that would be great I think on the Ranged tray. The way it is now you have to switch to melee mode, use the opener ability then get to use disengage as its the second in the chain.

 

I almost feel like they should just do away with the whole dual tray thing and just combine the two and let use range and melee at will. Seems like the melee tray has the actual mobility and escape stuff the ranged tray really needs. OR because Disengage auto-flips to the ranged tray why not have an ability on the range tray that auto flips to the melee tray? That way at least the switch might be less clunky then it is now.

Edited by pang
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Disengage I think you're referring to? Yeah that would be great I think on the Ranged tray. The way it is now you have to switch to melee mode, use the opener ability then get to use disengage as its the second in the chain.

 

I almost feel like they should just do away with the whole dual tray thing and just combine the two and let use range and melee at will. Seems like the melee tray has the actual mobility and escape stuff the ranged tray really needs. OR because Disengage auto-flips to the ranged tray why not have an ability on the range tray that auto flips to the melee tray? That way at least the switch might be less clunky then it is now.

Absolutely. I feel like the tray swap is more of the finger-dancing forced inefficiency that's driving me crazy. It feels artificial, manufactured to me. I favor more, diverse powers over few powers with increasing PITA attached to them in mere execution. I don't consider that maneuver "skill." At all.

 

It reminds me of the /TA "feature" in early SB. Players called it "skill," to be able to target other players quickly. My response was that my paralegal was more "skillful" than any of them. She types 200 words a minute. Would die rapidly in any gaming situation.

 

The question to me is what type of "skill" are the devs really going for here? Simon Says skillful, or Game of Thrones skillful?

Edited by coolwaters
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ESO pretty much did this. Charge/Channel abilities reduced your movement speed and left you vulnerable (although you could cancel this with your dodge). I think animation locks really lend themselves to games like Dark Soul or Fighting games, where you're fighting limited number of opponents. BDO also managed animation lock, but there is also an absurd amount of mobility in that game. Animation lock can quickly become a clown fiesta once you throw 50+ opponents on the screen, since you're likely to be punished for any ability you use.

 

Basically I'd like to see:

  • Animation lock on the most powerful abilities (stuns, knock downs, extremely hard hitting abilities)
  • Movement penalty on all the other abilities.
  • Options to break out of animation lock for a cost.

Obviously if I'm swinging my sword/mace/whatever around, I'm not going to be running at full speed. I won't be standing around like a tree either tho. There needs to be a middle ground.

 

 

Thread pretty much. Everything else felt incredibly clunky, I think keeping the action going and staying fluid should probably be a priority. I understand the fear of needing to make everyone "aim" and thus making it more skill shotty... but there needs to be a decent balance. You could always do soft (VERY soft) aiming assistance for classes that might struggle with the added freedom of movement (like rangers).

Wearily do I sleep eternity away.

Without fear or haste, on bedding made of solitude and silence.

 

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I know spouting "make it more like DFO" isn't a constructive or unique idea but that's all they need to do. People didn't leave DFO because the combat was bad, if anything they stuck around as long as they did because it was good.

 

Stop trying to re-invent the wheel, stop trying to be so unique.

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