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Combat?


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How is that relevant when it comes to animation locks in Tera? The animation locks in Tera punished anyone who was bad in pvp and everyone (who wasn't garbage) stacked attack speed for pvp gear. I've yet to see a game come close to Tera's pvp combat, BDO is probably the closest but still too easy.

 

Commit to a skill at a not so good time?

Dodge/Step/I-frame out immediately or get destroyed.

 

 

 

LOL at the animation speeds being fine. Looking forward to that PR a few years from now about misunderstanding the importance of good combat, or perhaps the pace of combat, and that it's sad but the game has to close down. I cannot see this gaining traction. "Hi, yes I'm looking for a game that is very slow" "What?" "A game this slow, you know, requires zero mental or physical proficiency."

 

I've played the game finally now too. Confessor is cool, the similarities to Tera's combat are cool, but the speed is just mind-numbing.

 

Put a skill in the general section that increases animation(attack) speeds by 100%. Annihilation incoming.

 

Artcraft you need to listen to the feedback from this guy. There are so many people on this forum whose MMO experience is primarily old school tab target MMO's. But if you're trying to make a good action combat system in the style of games like TERA (and Vindictus and Black Desert), you need feedback from people who have actually played these games extensively at endgame and know what makes the combat in those games work so well.

 

I'm not sure what other posters fit into that category, but please make sure you're listening to the folks that actually know what they're talking about when giving feedback. Experience means so much more than anything else and gamers are notorious for not always knowing what's best for themselves.

 

If TERA and Black Desert have taught us anything, it's that good combat can carry a game and is the core of gameplay for PvP.

Edited by Leiloni
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Artcraft you need to listen to the feedback from this guy. There are so many people on this forum whose MMO experience is primarily old school tab target MMO's. But if you're trying to make a good action combat system in the style of games like TERA (and Vindictus and Black Desert), you need feedback from people who have actually played these games extensively at endgame and know what makes the combat in those games work so well.

 

I'm not sure what other posters fit into that category, but please make sure you're listening to the folks that actually know what they're talking about when giving feedback. Experience means so much more than anything else and gamers are notorious for not always knowing what's best for themselves.

 

If TERA and Black Desert have taught us anything, it's that good combat can carry a game and is the core of gameplay for PvP.

 

This. Honestly, I am still quite worried about combat in this game. How it looks right now is that superficially the combat is like Tera or BDO but there are hints that a lot of very important subtleties are missing that will lead to the combat being mediocre at best. For example, I am adamant that staggers/flinches are necessary for a great combat system with animation locking in the same style as Tera but by this point It seems that they wont be added. A second thing would be the animation speeds. If the animations are extremely slow it sort of defeats the purpose of real action combat and you end up with something that's pretty much turn based.

 

Well even if I don't end up getting into the final product, I'm still glad I put down money on this game, in order to support all the innovations it's bringing to the genre.

Edited by Aguise
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I'd like to see combat evolve in to something like this:

 

https://www.twitch.tv/maximilian_dood/v/60273625?t=02h53m09s

 

https://www.twitch.tv/maximilian_dood/v/60273625?t=03h00m05s

 

CF's combat is lethargic in comparison. Blair worked on DCUO, so I'm surprised he didn't suggest using mouse inputs for combos, would be a step up from what we got.

 

 

Quick, some body make a Dark Souls MMORPG.       

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I'd like to see combat evolve in to something like this:

 

https://www.twitch.tv/maximilian_dood/v/60273625?t=02h53m09s

 

https://www.twitch.tv/maximilian_dood/v/60273625?t=03h00m05s

 

CF's combat is lethargic in comparison. Blair worked on DCUO, so I'm surprised he didn't suggest using mouse inputs for combos, would be a step up from what we got.

 

 

Quick, some body make a Dark Souls MMORPG.       

 

In this sequence the combat looked very slow, a lot more than in CF and the animation lock seemed super long. I doubt that putting any of that in CF would energize the combat. It could be cool for 1v1 duels though.

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I want to see the animation for the centaur's headroll...

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I wan to see combat like this...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2t1WAJaOwZ8

 

and

 

https://youtu.be/90a6RbSF5xk?t=605

 

The second video is long but I started it a point where one team was down to 20 spawn tokens and the other team had 0 but the two players were able to outplay the other three players and eventually get the win.

 

This shows moves, counter moves, positioning, friendly fire, and coordinating both offensive and defensive combos. It's not 100% applicable to Crowfall because it is a MOBA and there are no classes but the combat is fantastic and I would love to see some of these concepts adopted in Crowfall's combat. TTK can be from 10 seconds to 10 minutes depending on the skill of the players involved in the conflict.

 

Lopar

The Cult

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In this sequence the combat looked very slow, a lot more than in CF and the animation lock seemed super long. I doubt that putting any of that in CF would energize the combat. It could be cool for 1v1 duels though.

It does look slow, but there is a lot of subtle stuff going on there like footsies and mind games. It's not just unconditional mashing, and you don't have two dudes just stand opposite each other and hit buttons in sequence like combat is in CF. there's actual movement. If you look at some DFO videos the combat in that game isn't spastic or blazingly fast either, but there is a lot of movement and fluidity in actions performed. In CF your character stops and performs an actions, stops and performs another, they don't feel like they bleed well in to another.

 

I have hope that with time and polish we'll get there, but this is the combat test and they should definitely make sure combat feels good as well as works good.

Edited by helix
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It does look slow, but there is a lot of subtle stuff going on there like footsies and mind games. It's not just unconditional mashing, and you don't have two dudes just stand opposite each other and hit buttons in sequence like combat is in CF. there's actual movement. If you look at some DFO videos the combat in that game isn't spastic or blazingly fast either, but there is a lot of movement and fluidity in actions performed. In CF your character stops and performs an actions, stops and performs another, they don't feel like they bleed well in to another.

 

I have hope that with time and polish we'll get there, but this is the combat test and they should definitely make sure combat feels good as well as works good.

 

I've wanted Dark Souls or The Witcher 3 style combat from the beginning, but I think we've moved too far in the current direction for that to be the case. Right now, the combat isn't fluid enough for you to get a long combo off on someone before they can move away. You can, however, set up a large combo with your own CC or with CC from your allies.

 

I'm all for more fluidity and speed for animations and I think that the removal of certain GCDs between the combo steps will help to make them feel more responsive. Inputs for the combos (4,4,4 or 4,e,e or whatever) should feel like we're dialing a number on phone- where the "beep" corresponds directly to the button press.

 

BOOM! BOOM BOOM! instead of Boom...boom...boom- even though i'm hitting 4! 4! 4! furiously.

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I've wanted Dark Souls or The Witcher 3 style combat from the beginning, but I think we've moved too far in the current direction for that to be the case. Right now, the combat isn't fluid enough for you to get a long combo off on someone before they can move away. You can, however, set up a large combo with your own CC or with CC from your allies.

 

I'm all for more fluidity and speed for animations and I think that the removal of certain GCDs between the combo steps will help to make them feel more responsive. Inputs for the combos (4,4,4 or 4,e,e or whatever) should feel like we're dialing a number on phone- where the "beep" corresponds directly to the button press.

 

BOOM! BOOM BOOM! instead of Boom...boom...boom- even though i'm hitting 4! 4! 4! furiously.

 

I think in addition to that, more abilities would also help (and no, the current embedded combo chains don't really help).

 

A lot of the better designed action combat games - TERA, Black Desert, Vindictus, even Blade and Soul, have a TON of abilities per player. Some like TERA force you to just learn to keybind well (which let's be honest, is not hard), or the other three games have creative ways of hiding a lot of skills by either using different methods of keybinding (Vindictus and Black Desert) or just making skills only appear in certain circumstances (BnS).

 

That variety of abilities though adds a lot to classes and combat and could help a lot here to get away from the feeling of mashing the same few buttons over and over.

Edited by Leiloni
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I think in addition to that, more abilities would also help (and no, the current embedded combo chains don't really help).

 

A lot of the better designed action combat games - TERA, Black Desert, Vindictus, even Blade and Soul, have a TON of abilities per player. Some like TERA force you to just learn to keybind well (which let's be honest, is not hard), or the other three games have creative ways of hiding a lot of skills by either using different methods of keybinding (Vindictus and Black Desert) or just making skills only appear in certain circumstances (BnS).

 

That variety of abilities though adds a lot to classes and combat and could help a lot here to get away from the feeling of mashing the same few buttons over and over.

 

I don't want to see multiple hotbars. Ten or so skills on a hotbar is enough. BDO's combo system is the best approach I've seen to multiple abilities without hotbar hell.

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I don't want to see multiple hotbars. Ten or so skills on a hotbar is enough. BDO's combo system is the best approach I've seen to multiple abilities without hotbar hell.

 

I was one of the people who was afraid of that and thought it would be hard to learn. But once I got into it and figured it out, it was definitely pretty intuitive. A bit daunting at first and definitely takes a bit of practice to remember all of your combos. But once you realize where they're going with it and how a lot of they keybinds make sense (i.e. this skill where my character move forward is W+something else, ok well W makes me go forward anyway) it's easier to remember. 

 

Not sure how easy it is to design, but definitely one of the more creative ideas I've seen. The devs who did that also created the combat for Continent of the Ninth so you'll see a lot of similarities between combat and class design in those two games.

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I am in love with gw1's skill system, that without tab targeting would be my dream :D

200+ skills / class, you have main + second class, loooots of skill to choose from but can use only 8 with free re-training and switching outside of combat (in towns/cities), different builds, meaningful choices, lots of fun builds, but nightmare for balancing, so.... ^^

 

I hate those 43154325214351234 skills in hotbar games, so crowfall's system is to my liking. I would maybe change how the branching chains work, giving some time to use other skills, so f.e. I can have my Confessor's Flame-shield thingy up for a few seconds while using Flamethrower (you know, the strange melee skill on a squishy ranged) then blow it up for Tornado, it maybe could make more interesting combos possible.

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I am in love with gw1's skill system, that without tab targeting would be my dream :D

200+ skills / class, you have main + second class, loooots of skill to choose from but can use only 8 with free re-training and switching outside of combat (in towns/cities), different builds, meaningful choices, lots of fun builds, but nightmare for balancing, so.... ^^

 

I hate those 43154325214351234 skills in hotbar games, so crowfall's system is to my liking. I would maybe change how the branching chains work, giving some time to use other skills, so f.e. I can have my Confessor's Flame-shield thingy up for a few seconds while using Flamethrower (you know, the strange melee skill on a squishy ranged) then blow it up for Tornado, it maybe could make more interesting combos possible.

Yep this.

 

While I doubt we'll have 200+ in CF It's very likely that after promotion classes, discipline runes etc we'll have more skills to pick from than what we can fit on the single action bar. So there should be that aspect of deck building and picking and choosing which ability's to use at any one time. Its an aspect I very much prefer after playing action bar bloat games for years.

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I am in love with gw1's skill system, that without tab targeting would be my dream :D

200+ skills / class, you have main + second class, loooots of skill to choose from but can use only 8 with free re-training and switching outside of combat (in towns/cities), different builds, meaningful choices, lots of fun builds, but nightmare for balancing, so.... ^^

 

I hate those 43154325214351234 skills in hotbar games, so crowfall's system is to my liking. I would maybe change how the branching chains work, giving some time to use other skills, so f.e. I can have my Confessor's Flame-shield thingy up for a few seconds while using Flamethrower (you know, the strange melee skill on a squishy ranged) then blow it up for Tornado, it maybe could make more interesting combos possible.

GW original was incredible for its time, but I think with an action game where you manually enter attacks, it's better to weigh more significance to regular attacks and work them into alternating attack patterns.

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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While I doubt we'll have 200+ in CF It's very likely that after promotion classes, discipline runes etc we'll have more skills to pick from than what we can fit on the single action bar.

 

I doubt it's possible for humans to balance that number of skills, so unless we have a good AI I don't want that as most skill would only become unbalanced/useless. But 2x-3x the "hotbar" should be okay-ish maybe?

 

GW original was incredible for its time, but I think with an action game where you manually enter attacks, it's better to weigh more significance to regular attacks and work them into alternating attack patterns.

 

TBH I don't see much difference between BDO's 'combo' and "press 12345678", so the bigger difference (for me, that is) is the "fluidity", like how much you can move while using skills. In GW1 you press 5, in BDO you press shift+w+RMB... what's the big difference?

Sure, you didn't have built-in follow-up skills in GW1, but without branching, does that really add more fun to the gameplay? Isn't that just a cumbersome way to use a skill you need?

 

Not saying that GW1's combat without any change would be okay nowadays, but I don't feel that radical changes would be needed in a theoretical game which is not CF and is using GW1 style build-system to be enjoyable (for me, that is) :D

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TBH I don't see much difference between BDO's 'combo' and "press 12345678", so the bigger difference (for me, that is) is the "fluidity", like how much you can move while using skills. In GW1 you press 5, in BDO you press shift+w+RMB... what's the big difference?

 

For me it's the ability to play with a light 5-button mouse with a good sensor like a G502 as opposed to a heavy 15-button mouse with an inferior sensor like a Naga. BDO is much more easily playable without major key rebinding or a dozen mouse thumb buttons.

Edited by recatek
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For me it's the ability to play with a light 5-button mouse with a good sensor like a G502 as opposed to a heavy 15-button mouse with an inferior sensor like a Naga. BDO is much more easily playable without major key rebinding or a dozen mouse thumb buttons.

8 skills = aw-rg-vy-qt, without mouse buttons, without using ctrl/shift, using esdf for moving with qwertz keyboard.

If you have 2 programmable buttons on mouse, (M1 and M2), then M1, shift + M1, ctrl + M1, same for M2, and the 2 left can be buttons, "combos" (like M1+RMB), use a third programmable button, etc.

8-10 skills don't need a heavy MMO mouse, that's for those gazillion skills on hotbar games I hate ^^

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I doubt it's possible for humans to balance that number of skills, so unless we have a good AI I don't want that as most skill would only become unbalanced/useless. But 2x-3x the "hotbar" should be okay-ish maybe?

 

 

TBH I don't see much difference between BDO's 'combo' and "press 12345678", so the bigger difference (for me, that is) is the "fluidity", like how much you can move while using skills. In GW1 you press 5, in BDO you press shift+w+RMB... what's the big difference?

Sure, you didn't have built-in follow-up skills in GW1, but without branching, does that really add more fun to the gameplay? Isn't that just a cumbersome way to use a skill you need?

 

Not saying that GW1's combat without any change would be okay nowadays, but I don't feel that radical changes would be needed in a theoretical game which is not CF and is using GW1 style build-system to be enjoyable (for me, that is) :D

 

I agree with you although on the "fluidity" comment, that can be done by building in movement into the attack animations and also speeding up attack animations. One thing that both TERA and BDO did really well was each attack moved your character in a specific way. So while you were animation locked, you weren't standing still. That helped to make combat feel really fluid and fun, but it also added an extra layer of skill, because now you have an additional property to your abilities to consider when deciding what to use when (and how). 

Edited by Leiloni
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