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sneaky_squirrel

How Can Mounts Add To The Game Experience?

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Mounted combat can work. There's a game I use to play that offered it (as a cash item). Classes other than melee could use most of their spells/abilities so long as the character movement skills are disabled (or used to dismount).  here's a video of a mounted combat sorc.  

 

This also works for Flying mounted combat too.  I know many people are all QQ for flying mounts. BUT what if you could kill someone while they are flying??

 

I think the main thing Mounted Combat should incorporate is an alternate set of actions specific to riding. Similar to Guildwars weapon switching, but more extensive.

 

Depending on the Archetype and Class/Disciplines, and even the mount, your available actions would be altered to new ones that are mount appropriate. Some Archetypes may not be suitable to mounted combat, so they may have limited options, and little access to their typical abilities, like Magicians or certain fighters like Champion, while others might be masters of mounted combat, like Ranger, and of course the Centaur who should always operate in Cavalry states.

 

The main thing is that I'd like these kinds of Cavalry interactions to be a staple of the battlefield, not some sort of side feature, Centaurs are permanently in a horsed state, so their entire ability set can be done around that kind of gameplay, and other classes could imitate similar gameplay with Promotion classes and Disciplines, while many actions across the game can be designed to interact and counteract them just as naturally as any other feature, like mages and shooters.


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My big thing is that I don't want it to be the "drop everything and flee" button. I remember those days in WoW in which players would "chase" each other through Azeroth, and they were hardly thrilling or conducive to a world PvP environment.

 

Hoping that there are multiple factors that determine speed (skill, mount vitality and health/damage, mount's feeding condition, etc.) so that there are ways for players to truly outrun, but more importantly, catch other players, or at least slow them down (ranged classes shooting the mount from horseback, laying traps, jousting to dismount opponents, etc.)

 

Centaurs will have this natatively.  With mounted combat, any ranged promotion could dismount the rider.  Maybe melee promotions could have a sprint on their mount as a gap closer or the ability to leap from their mount.

 

I think the main thing Mounted Combat should incorporate is an alternate set of actions specific to riding. Similar to Guildwars weapon switching, but more extensive.

 

Depending on the Archetype and Class/Disciplines, and even the mount, your available actions would be altered to new ones that are mount appropriate. Some Archetypes may not be suitable to mounted combat, so they may have limited options, and little access to their typical abilities, like Magicians or certain fighters like Champion, while others might be masters of mounted combat, like Ranger, and of course the Centaur who should always operate in Cavalry states.

 

The main thing is that I'd like these kinds of Cavalry interactions to be a staple of the battlefield, not some sort of side feature, Centaurs are permanently in a horsed state, so their entire ability set can be done around that kind of gameplay, and other classes could imitate similar gameplay with Promotion classes and Disciplines, while many actions across the game can be designed to interact and counteract them just as naturally as any other feature, like mages and shooters.

 

There was that in Archeage. Depending on the mount, you could get ranged abilities, melee abilities or run faster abilities.  Many people picked the faster mounts to get to locations faster and to flee.

 

I wondered why an Archer/Spell caster couldn't just.. use their abilities.  Why should a mage be limited to mount abilities when they could just use their ranged abilities. Same for any Archer or other ranged promotions.  That doesn't make any sense nor is it immersible.  It isn't like a person 'forgets' how to cast a fireball or shoot an arrow while mounted.  

 

This could add a new passive training for mounted combat!!  With this skill, you aim better and your mount isn't scared of said abilities being used. Have you seen a horse flinch when you fire a gun??


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I wondered why an Archer/Spell caster couldn't just.. use their abilities.  Why should a mage be limited to mount abilities when they could just use their ranged abilities. Same for any Archer or other ranged promotions.  That doesn't make any sense nor is it immersible.  It isn't like a person 'forgets' how to cast a fireball or shoot an arrow while mounted.  

 

This could add a new passive training for mounted combat!!  With this skill, you aim better and your mount isn't scared of said abilities being used. Have you seen a horse flinch when you fire a gun??

 

Was about to respond with that mounted combat should be more difficult. Like aiming properly is more difficult and skills are less powerful. But your last paragraph covered this basically. So I agree with you. Mounted combat could (almost) be the same as normal combat with limitations which can be improved with a certain (active or passive) skill.


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Not sure if I'd want mounted combat... Its much like flying mounts, something I notice a lot of people asking for, yet few actually praise, if given. Really flying combat is just easier than navigating around the world, so people like it for convenience, at the cost of immersion and exploration. Mounted combat though is a different can of worms and I never seen it done particularly well. Even when I hear people say it is good, as in Mortal online or Mount and blade, I hate it. I am normally pretty chill about games, but when a friend convinced me to try out some mount and blade pvp, I was furious. If your not mounted, you really have no chance of winning, assuming your equal in skill.

 

The man with the horse has the advantage of controlling the battlefield, striking and retreating at will. And yes while you can in theory kill his horse, any time you spend doing so, he will use to kill you.

 

In days of yore, mounted troops almost always controlled the battle field unless you had prepared heavy armed and armored ground forces that could counter the mounted troops (think of squares of Pikemen).

 

Mounted vs Archers or a long line of melee troops generally were rolled up by mounted, where as a square could respond to a mounted charge (if seen in time by the leader) to face the mounted with pikes at the ready, why should that be different in CF?

 

But I suspect in CF mounts can be used to move troops, get ahead of a caravan, get to a specific location in the CW and not be used for/in combat.

Edited by Warprose

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etah, on 30 May 2015 - 12:53 PM, said:snapback.png

I wondered why an Archer/Spell caster couldn't just.. use their abilities.  Why should a mage be limited to mount abilities when they could just use their ranged abilities. Same for any Archer or other ranged promotions.  That doesn't make any sense nor is it immersible.  It isn't like a person 'forgets' how to cast a fireball or shoot an arrow while mounted.  

 

This could add a new passive training for mounted combat!!  With this skill, you aim better and your mount isn't scared of said abilities being used. Have you seen a horse flinch when you fire a gun??

 

Yep, seen untrained horses flinch, jump, run, and shy away from gun shots, particularly when its fired over their head. In western cowboys shooting groups we train the horse(s) you will be using in competition to not do any of those things. Some horses get over it with 2-3 boxes of shells while others need 10-20 boxes of shells and a few never seem to get over it, that's one reason trained war horses were in great demand and very expensive. Neck reined horses can be guided with the riders knees only allowing the rider full use of both hands/arms for shield and sword.

 

I would think in CF the quarter horse would be transport/hauling only, while the war and nightmare horse are trained for war which may or may-not be implemented in the core game...one can only hope at this point in time.

 

PS. You should see the horse ear plugs my boss and I developed for people in the club to buy for their horses they bring to cowboy shoots. I would have thought he would have it in commercial production by now, it works so much better than whats available now to the public.

 

Edit to add PS

Edited by Warprose

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ACE has solved the mount storage problem with figurines, 

Also would be interesting to see the effects of The Hunger to your mount come winter if you fail to perform the proper care...

but this could happen to mounts and pets trained in campaigns and not placed in embargo vaults before they succumb to The Hunger.


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Also would be interesting to see the effects of The Hunger to your mount come winter if you fail to perform the proper care...

 

Fenris's Thread: http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/6213-new-art-from-0417-video/#entry157270

 

Sneaky peaky.

 

Couldnt find courants, but did find fenris's thread. :) (the pig is the KS reward)

Edited by Kiro Elmarok

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www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DXtklIsY3E

 

 

Sneaky peaky.

 

Also I believe Courant101 has a thread somewhere with screenshots from the video above. Ill keep looking for that and put a link here to it when I do.

We miss Courant101.   He was such a great community resource.  Hope he is ok.....

 

sorry for derailing.


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I'd just like to see mounted combat be something in CF. I'd like to see a siege be a combination of ranged, melee both mounted and foot. Seeing fireballs cast from mages on mounts, seeing a mounted melee class using their weapon to deal extra damage to another character.

 

Watch bigger mounts such as elephant version walk in that turns the battle or these mounts are dragging a huge trebuchet. Bigger mounts should be able to trample classes on foot. Well mounted too if they are under the foot of said bigger mount.

 

I'm thinking of the 300 movie here where the mounts were trampling people and using their tusk to clear the way.


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Alright, so mounted combat and features.

The reason certain abilities should be hándicapped while riding, specifically magic, is because... balance. This is an action game, with heavy archetype asymmetry. Primarily, Centaur are permanently cavalry, this comes with several advantages, speed and mobility dominance, high physical power, and whatever else.

Other classes like mages will be balanced against such classes like tanks and Centaur with features and spectacular spells fitting a mage, as soon as you give them working access to their spells on horseback, you ruin the power budget they have as an archetype, mobility, with all the coupled advantages and disadvantages are part of Centaur identity, and it's not optional, they are always Cavalry and can't dismount.

Hoping the game will be rich in depth, the Centaur is supposedly OP, but could have disadvantages, like inability to climb, scale narrow stairs, or even be obstructed by narrow passages.

For every other class, riding is an option, in order for them to be properly balance and tastefully designed, they should both be naturally less effective while riding, and only utilize effective cavalry tactics accessible to Centaur.

This would typically include light cavalry, armored cavalry, and Centaur Archers. This means Knights or Rangers promoting or disciplining into cavalry could access the same behaviors and roles as a Centaur would with promotions and disciplines, but mages should have little or no magic while riding because Centaur a "can't" be a mage, and it creates an advantage without a disadvantage.

Some limited spell use, or cross training a mage to use physical combat from a mount can be fair, but not everything should have a cavalry option, that isn't diversity, and it isn't interesting, its homogeny.

The second major consideration is animation locking, combos, and movement. A Centaur would be expected to operate like cavalry, this means that his attacks may have animations that involve striking while moving in a continuous stride, combos can't naturally land in sequence because he is often going to be moving, and his opponent is naturally stationary or slower. This results in him using a singly powerful blast as he passes by, or a combo with high hit power, but expectation to hit with only one attack in the frame as he passes various foes.

Cavalry does not work the way infantry does, if it's designed well, you'd expect them to attempt to do pass bys, fight astride other Centaur or riders, or harrie a foe with projectiles with controlled distance.

This further ties the behavior and features of Centaur and cavalry to various advantages or disadvantages. Spells cast on foot, or any other action on foot, should have advantages and disadvantages tied to their role, they should not be expected to have a mount available to preform their role to the fullest of their ability, but if they have a working method available to them as a mounted fighter, than their character power must be subtracted to balance their power and versatility.

It's bad design on a myriad of levels and defeats the archetype asymmetry and individuality of each role or character.

All that aside, there are more than enough narrative justifications to limit magic while riding. Horses must be trained to fight, and riders must be trained to fight on horseback, and fighting and attacks are done differently when your on horseback. Magic can be designed with any amount of freedom or limitation the fantasy prescribes, but in a multiplayer PvP game, it shouldn't be designed like the 7 wizards of some book, or the hero of some single player game, it should have advantages and disadvantages fitting the nature of the game.

 

https://youtu.be/AAmf4RTBoYk

 

Horses could be magic shy, or spooked by fairies. Certain mages may have some special spells available just for horse riding, like a Confessor on a Nightmare creating a trail of flame as they ride, or a Dryad having more spells available while riding due to their nature association. It needs to be specifically balance around riding and archetype/class roles.

It would be better to force a Frostweaver to use a discipline for Horse archery and allow them inferior horse archery functionality so they can participate in cavalry in the same method other cavalry units do rather than make some special way for them to do ice magic while riding with poor regard for the gameplay integrity. Good game design is not about enabling every fantasy, the limitations are even more rich than the inclusion in a mature fantasy, it give it substance and depth.

We could contrive some balanced way to play purple technicolor dragons because somebody would like it, but it would subtract from the game, not improve it, and so it is also for cavalry magicians.

Edited by bahamutkaiser

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@bahamutkaiser
 
I suggested earlier that there be a Mounted Combat skill that players could learn to alleviate some of the disadvantages of using abilities while mounted.  I've seen mounted archers be as accurate as one standing still and they'd do more damage because of the speed of the mount. It just takes many more years of practice. With FF, an ability could hit the mount just as easily as it could the rider. To the point that it might be better to kill the mount first then the player.
 
Mounted Combat also opens up Mount Armor. This also leads to an economy for crafters.  This also leads to Mount Storage (Inventory) which could be looted.  By adding combat to mounts we get a whole new ecosystem for players.
 

like inability to climb, scale narrow stairs

 
I was in Peru for 10 days. We did a horseback ride where we went down a mountain route which was about 2-3' wide. The horses had no problems doing that. It was slow but they did it.  I saw the 'steps' and thought "nope this wont happen" but it did.
 

Horses could be magic shy, or spooked by fairies.

 
By all accounts, Centaurs could have a fear as well. Maybe a fear could be a negative attribute for all Archetypes

I made this comment in my first post about mounted combat.  I suggested the Mounted Combat could allow the rider to use abilities without scaring the mount.  Mounts could have an attribute that causes them to be scared of certain ability types.  This could allow for a profession to raise mounts. A caster might want a mount that isn't as scared or fearless of their spells. An archer would want a mount that wouldn't be scared of their arrow wizzing by. Those classes that use guns would want a mount that isn't scared of gun fire. Again this adds a whole ecosystem to the game.
 

Centaur

 
What if we have bolas or spells that can root/mez/stun Centaurs? How about tranquilizer darts. There are ways to stop cavalry, if not stop at least slow them down.
 
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Now all of this could be applied to flying mounts.  Flying mounts would have to have a limited flight time. Duration would depend on the mount but no more than 5 minutes. For the Flying Mount to recover, the mount has to be summoned. This makes them vulnerable to be killed/looted! With Mounted Flying Combat if your prey fly's away, chase them and you could still kill them. Again this could be a new Skill for Training (post release).

 

The only reason I'm pro Mounted Flying Combat is to have that concern to always look up.  Maybe any Flying Mounts should be left for Fall/Winter. This gives the player the reason to scout on foot until the resources can be found, gathered then assembled to summon a Flying Mount. Oh and if your group is flying to a location just remember that someone could be relaying that information to their gank squad (muhahaha).


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Pandora Saga had cavalry, and I think it was rather well done.

 

Every class could fight on horseback and use all their skills, but how well it did that depended on the cavalry skill.

Most classes were capped at low levels for that skill which drastically limited their damage output while mounted, some could reach mediocre skill levels and be handy as fast flankers and one or two were actually better as cavalry then as foot soldiers.

 

Mounted combatants were pretty strong, but almost every class could at least fight back if they were prepared and cavalry that wasn't moving was rather vulnerable to infantry.

Mounts had their own health pool, and healing/reviving them was only possible at a stable, so you could wear them down over time. Most classes also had skills for dealing with them, for example many types of mages could summon walls that blocked them which also served to make them immobile (and therefore vulnerable) until they turned around, archers had traps that could slow and root mounts in place, warriors classes had a few spear skills that could dismount riders if they landed a crit and so on.

 

A similar system would be quite workable, I think.

Give every class the ability to fight mounted, but limit how good they are based on archetype and promotion. Then add in a disipline rune that raises the mounted combat ability quite a bit so you can specialize into cavalry combat.

 

 

As for centaurs I think just giving them larger hitboxes then ground based classes would be enough to balance them somewhat.

Remember that with friendly fire active being bigger all the time is quite a serious disadvantage.

They could also trigger traps that are usually ignoring non-mounts, but not much more then that.


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I think some of these things are already confirmed to some degree. For example:

 

Crowfall_CaravanBanner.jpg

 

Also, notice the wolf figurine hanging on her belt:

 

Ranger_Female_PThumb.png

 

 

Black Desert has mounted combat and a really unique horse system.

Here is a video that describes it. It's ~6 minutes.

 

Other than that I agree with you so hard. Specifically I like the idea of mounts being treated like actors. Think Guenhwyvar, Samantha, or Valor.

 

Good stuff.

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Lord of the Rings Online had an interesting combat mount system (because Riders or Rohan!), but it's not something a programmer can implement in an afternoon. Animations, collisions, charges and jousting are a complex affair.


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So many things in this thread, if implemented in the game, would a-mount to a great deal of amazing gameplay. 6_u

 

Bonus joke of the day:

 

Why do Legionnaires always win at jousting?

 

 

Because they have a lower centaur of gravity. 6_u


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Lord of the Rings Online had an interesting combat mount system (because Riders or Rohan!), but it's not something a programmer can implement in an afternoon. Animations, collisions, charges and jousting are a complex affair.

 

This is why I could see Mounted Combat be a post-launch thing. And this gives players the ability to say "back in my day we were to stupid to fireball from a mount, it was just impossible" or something like that.


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So many things in this thread, if implemented in the game, would a-mount to a great deal of amazing gameplay. 6_u

 

Bonus joke of the day:

 

Why do Legionnaires always win at jousting?

 

 

Because they have a lower centaur of gravity. 6_u

 

 

happy-i-see-what-you-did-there-_clean_-l

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