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Will the dualist only burrow?


silhaku
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The dualist is labeled a SPECIALIST (BURROW) but we know it will have some dps aspects maybe a bit of cc or disabilities. But for the burrow aspect, I can see that as what makes it a specialist as it could help bypass walls completely when it comes to sieges. But will burrow be its only use during sieges? The Guineceans are the most advance race in crowfall so why not give them other mechanics. Bombs made to blow key builds down. A rocket on the back to leap on top of walls to deal with the range pest firing down on your allies. A stasis form of burrow where they stay underground for a extended time if not permanently and wait for the right opportunity to pop out for ambushes. Whats everyone else's thoughts on this?

Edited by silhaku
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Not sure how exactly burrow would work, but for all I know, we can use it to tunnel under walls and use it probably for ambushes or escapes and the like. We migtht be able to use it to hide traps too! IDK, we'll just have to wait and see

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You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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But my quest is if burrow was going to be the only thing dualist Sergio's for? Just trying to see if anyone else thinks there should be more to their kit then that.

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But my quest is if burrow was going to be the only thing dualist Sergio's for? Just trying to see if anyone else thinks there should be more to their kit then that.

 

There is the base archetype + 3 promotion classes which specialise into aspects of the base Archetype.

 

One would excell at 1 to 1 combat, most likely with a blade, maybe a fencer. A Duel because he is a Duellist (you always wrote Dualist which only means that you do 2 things at a time).

 

One would be specilising on burrowing. He would siege and build siege denfenses just burrow (I am really not the guy to ask about that). Hence the Burrow Specialist

 

One would be a wild card, really. But I assume because the Guineceans are the only ones that unlock the secret of ammonition that that would be a Gun / Pistol / Ammo promotion. Kinda a hybrid fighitng class and crafter.

 

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I love you all.

 

 

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They are also the only archetype with guns iirc... Perhaps they will have other gunpowder devices such as bombs for saboteur work. The burrow ability would combine well with such things. The bio also suggests that they are skilled with swords, like the person above me here also mentioned about the Duelist. 

 

Guns, Swords, Bombs and Burrowing? That sounds like a formidable arsenal. 

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Will ranger and assassin "Specialist (Stealth)" only use stealth?

No, they will have other, non-stealth abilities or they could only scout which is not so assassinish.

Same with Duelists, they will have non-burrow skills, to dominate everyone in duels.

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Will ranger and assassin "Specialist (Stealth)" only use stealth?

No, they will have other, non-stealth abilities or they could only scout which is not so assassinish.

Same with Duelists, they will have non-burrow skills, to dominate everyone in duels.

I agree but what would you like to see out of the class. I see dualist as I highly mobile class and skills to help these little guys move about the battlefield I think would be really nice. At least for one of its promotion classes at least. 

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I agree but what would you like to see out of the class. I see dualist as I highly mobile class and skills to help these little guys move about the battlefield I think would be really nice. At least for one of its promotion classes at least. 

More or less what I wrote in the other thread (about the "trap" style burrows):

 

Let's revive this thread, Duelists should never stop theorycrafting!

 

We have some "new" information:

Each role has the following adjustments:

  • Tanks:  +20% all mitigation types. -30% to Damage
  • DPS: -20% all mitigation types. 0% Damage
  • Specialist: 0% all mitigation types. -20% Damage
  • Support: -10% to all mitigation types. -30% Damage

As we're specialists, we get -20% Damage compared to a DPS class (still second best) and don't forget that we still have the name "Duelist".

Our armor is second only to tanks, making it interesting for our small bodies as (afaik) mass-calculation will be in game for launch/pull skills.

 

RB = Real Burrowing, with physics, with Voxel Destruction.

 

We have less damage than DPS classes, that means we have to use our "specialist skill" in combat to balance it.

We have more armor than DPS classes so we can't expect an archetype with full damage avoidance, but combined with our small mass can make an interesting mix of kiting and taking hits.

 

What if our kit is a reversed Ranger, starting in melee and switching to pistol? E.g. our RMB (the skill which uses stamina and somewhat defensive) is a short parry which, if hit while parrying, comes with a brief stun/blind and burrowing away (Confessor style? RB?) while switching to pistol?

What if our kit is "just" dual-wielding, melee and ranged skills together even in combos? E.g. one of our chain is melee hit with leap/burrow back -> ranged shot -> leap to enemy/burrow forward for a hit.

 

But we still need to use our burrows for something or we would be just your average fighter, so...

What is the difference between traps and burrows? Do we want to have RB for personal combat skills or only for sieges?

If we want to use RB in combat, do we need Invulnerability while burrowing? Damage Reduction? Or Damage Avoidance by Stun/Blind skills?

 

Maybe...

What if our "Burrows" are "trap-lines", you can fill the burrows with spikes (movement speed reduction? bleeding?), timed/triggered bomb (damage? knockback?), timed/triggered flash (stun? blind?), gas (AoE poison? )? Or you can fill it with food so if you go through it again you get some buff/healing?

 

What if our "C" (aka the iFrame defensive skill.. which is not an iFrame for Rangers) is a "free burrowing" ability so you can be creative with it while the other burrow skills in chains is "fixed direction" (forward/backward, you got the idea) but shorter CD/faster movement? E.g. you would have different fixed (forward/backward) burrows in combos/chains with different (but fixed for every skill) "filling" (spike, bomb, etc.) and you would have your free movement with a filling-selection skill-list, maybe even switching mid-burrow. Just imagine a burrow which sometimes makes you bleed, sometimes explodes below you, always surprising, never the same.

 

And so far we did not even use RB, although (free-)line traps is something to develop, you could use it on other classes, too (assassin? frostweaver?).

We could make one Promotion class change/add skills for RB, which are used for sieges more than combat, but you could make a siege-burrower with Siege-damage bombs in your burrows, and that's something I already assigned to a skill as "filling".

 

Would something like this be fun to play? Maybe.

Would this idea be more fun to play with RB? Probably not.

 

 

I really would like to have RB for combat, but I fear that it's not what we will get, simply it's too hard to make RB balanced. (Small-scale, large-scale, sieges... too many variables, too creative players. OP in one, useless in another... Which would be fine as a Siege-engineer but as Duelist you would lose the only really fun use of RB which is Underground-Sieges.)

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I agree but what would you like to see out of the class. I see dualist as I highly mobile class and skills to help these little guys move about the battlefield I think would be really nice. At least for one of its promotion classes at least.

 

Again I can only talk about the camobat side @Dhorfel is way better suited for burrwoing.

 

Dueling, for me at least, is always associated with footwork. so the Duelist has a lot of positioning move to dodge and out footie, as it is called in fighting games, the opponent. Weaving in and out of combat only going in when he hits and going out when the enemy hits, being practicly invisible. Well if played correctly.

 

RKNM also summed it up perfectly! :

 

Here's my takeaway from a "Duelist" in an MMO:

 

The way I see it, the duelist will probably be more of a sustained melee to mid-range combatant, playing similarly to an assassin playstyle, only instead of the damage being frontloaded in an engagement and limiting the enemies mobility as most assassins would, the duelist deals better sustained damage throughout combat and focuses on being more mobile than their foes, much like a fencer. While an assassin would blow all the CD's at the beginning and then deal very weak damage afterwards to an HVT, the duelist is much more judicious in skill usage, dealing the same amount of damage over time, relying on high mobility to stay safe as opposed to the assassins need for stealth to engage safely. While assassins favor going after the squishy backline, the duelist can quickly grind out squishies or wear down tanks a like due to their high sustain and mobility, being weak to fellow DPS, whose kits either outpace the duelists damage or have more overall utilities, such as CC to take away the duelists mobility, or less emphasis on precise single target abilities for their sustained damage, such as AOE and range. A good example of a Duelist class as described would be TERA's Slayer or DPS Warrior class, which had a lot of gap closers and many evasion techniques, but suffered once that mobility was taken away, which was a lot of fun to play.

 

The way I see our duelist playing is as a mid-to-melee fighter, using quick dives coupled with just a quick retreats, using their pistol to help them kite at mid-ranges . They are essentially the kite-y melee class. While their damage may not be as bursty as assassins, their sustained damage and high mobility more than make up for it, allowing them to continuously beat on a foe at melee relatively safely, provided they don't get caught. Because of their high sustained damage and high mobility, they can only engage one target at a time, with the majority of their abilities being single target in nature. They are also lacking in hard CC, preferring abilities that keep them mobile for diving and retreating, meaning they have few options to lock down an opponent (though because they are so mobile and kitey, they may not need to), but also suffering when they are got (like rats >:} ).

 

How their burrow ability might play in is still up in the air, but I imagine it'd probably play with the in-and-out gameplay as well. I like the idea of the burrow to help in opening routes around the battlefield (which could lead to interesting strategies) while closing the gap to get duelists to their dueling targets. Of course it still remains to be seen how this may work. It could be that the burrow technique is like the Mesmer Portal skill in GW2 (using tunnels instead of outright portals...maybe because that something only the gods can do(?)) The battlefield advantage that tunnels provide could also be used to justify the focus on single target abilities and lack of AOE abilities as well.

 

Of course, this is all just speculation/wishing for things.

But I also voiced my opinion in threads like This one about promotions. I am basicly all over the Duelist forum but too lasy to look for more of those posts.

 

I AM ME!
I love you all.

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

There is the base archetype + 3 promotion classes which specialise into aspects of the base Archetype.

 

One would excell at 1 to 1 combat, most likely with a blade, maybe a fencer. A Duel because he is a Duellist (you always wrote Dualist which only means that you do 2 things at a time).

 

One would be specilising on burrowing. He would siege and build siege denfenses just burrow (I am really not the guy to ask about that). Hence the Burrow Specialist

 

One would be a wild card, really. But I assume because the Guineceans are the only ones that unlock the secret of ammonition that that would be a Gun / Pistol / Ammo promotion. Kinda a hybrid fighitng class and crafter.

 

I'm hoping a rifleman for the last one, with a bayonet. Long-ranged gun focus with difficult reloading and decent melee.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm gonna say no to the jetpack. Just because they can use gunpowder (or maybe even just black powder), doesn't mean they're super advanced. The Chinese in the 1400s could barely get their guns to shoot 50 feet, let alone safely launching a man (or rodent) into the sky. Bombs are good though.

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  • 2 weeks later...

They already stated that they're not sure how they will implement voxel tech on ground tiles. Burrow, if it exists at all in the final game will probably be a skill like stealth that you can get from disciplines. It will most likely be a skill used for short term out-of-combat, slow stealth travel that also has a gathering component. Like a crafters stealth.

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  • 3 weeks later...

The cool thing about CF is that we get skills across all classes.  In the general tab, it has been confirmed last year (I cant cite a resource, I cant remember where it was) that the exploration sub-section will have invincibility.  Despite being a "specialist", I think we are going to have quite a lot of options.  We make the best scouts/wayfarers in the game, we are THE siege class, we will most likely have a lore related merchant buff, we will have good interactions with items and mechanical stuff, and not to mention we are called duelists, we will be able to duel.  All we need to worry about are the specifics of burrowing.

 

TLDR to answer the OP, we will be able to do much more than just burrow.

The merchant families of Guinecea were the first to establish trade between Worlds. Our artist, the inventors of sculpture and stagecraft. Our duelist, the finest masters to wield a blade. Our engineers, the only to unlock the secret of munitions.

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Tinnis just sent me two useful URLs.  My apologies, stealth was a combat skill, but either way, there are plenty of useful skills that will be available beyond the normal class skills in order to further vary the playstyles of each character.

The information he sent me is on his resource website for Crowfall, which by the way appears to be very useful for piecing together information​, you can find it by typing in sites.google.com/sites/crowfallresource/home

Big shout out to Tinnis for making this.

The merchant families of Guinecea were the first to establish trade between Worlds. Our artist, the inventors of sculpture and stagecraft. Our duelist, the finest masters to wield a blade. Our engineers, the only to unlock the secret of munitions.

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