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taroskin

Ace, Are you back pedalling on Healing?

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I dunno why people are talking about the legionnaire as if everything is set in stone. 

 

In the end we are here as testers to give feedback and suggestions...

 

so you're entirely right and we can help in that process.

Edited by Tinnis

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The problem you're describing isn't due to the existence of support as a role nor of the design of Centaurs. It's in a few things - player strategy, other class design, and team makeup.

 

Firstly, right now most players end up in groups with randoms. They don't know them and aren't coordinating with them like they would with their guildies in voice chat. Basic ideas like focusing a target or keeping the healer locked down would be effective here when you have people working together. That is not a problem with the Lego, that's just your team being bad - at no fault of your own, but still being bad. If you had a Confessor blowing everybody up or a Knight pulling and KDing everyone and causing all sorts of headaches, you'd focus them as well. Lego is no different and neither are the strategies.

 

 

Again, I disagree. Sorry for using League as an example yet again but from a structural viewpoint it's very effective as an example (or at least I think so). League works whether or not you have champions capable of healing themselves or others. What changes is your strategy and how you approach the enemy team. Having a self heal/heal heavy team means a bad team will get stomped while a good team will adjust their build order and playstyle to counter, both of which the game allows.

 

This is called counterplay. It rewards strategy and thinking and promotes skill. Right now a team without Centaurs is at a huge disadvantage. This forces the team without healers(which, as you said, is apparently supports in general now) to desperately kill the enemy healers, a very typical and cliche maneuver centered on old trinity systems. This is because, like the developers themselves have said, healing creates a multiplicative effect on the team's overall health if they can heal easily and constantly. It's not quite as bad as a true healer at the moment, but it ain't so great either imo.

 

In your above situation the enemy team simply needs to play on equal terms because their healers will effectively grant them a higher health pool. Likewise, Centaurs can contribute to damage and have fairly powerful support skills to further tilt things. This creates a dynamic where they are required rather than being a choice. In League you don't need champions that heal themselves or others- it's just one of many viable strategies even in a meta that's constantly shifting.

 

Likewise, there needs to be counterplay. Healing needs methods to be countered (like suppression, agreed), possibly silences, or a way to put pressure on supports. Granted another archetype may do this as a specialty down the road... but currently we don't have the tools for counterplay so it's viable as a complaint.

 

I'm am almost 100% positive that if two teams of equal skill met, one with centaurs and the other without, the result wouldn't be a very close match.

 

I'm not asking for the Lego to be changed which seems to be a misunderstanding you made. I want their healing to be more open to counterplay or more tools to deal with healing that they can also counterplay. So yes, I guess I am asking for more tools for other archetypes and hope the upcoming changes to Lego via Druid's healing tech also helps by allowing those windows to exist.

 

 

 

Third is something you also mention several times - team makeup. You mention several Centaurs being on one team and that's just them being smart. They're sacrificing damage for survivability. So yes they're not likely to die but they have a huge weakness in that they will have a hard time killing anything. Take advantage of that. You say you want more Knights and Rangers? Ok well you can form a team with more Knight's and Rangers - and don't forget the Confessor's ability to ranged stun someone on demand. A group of Confessor's could be very annoying against a bunch of Lego's if they know how to keep them stunned at the right times. Sounds pretty irritating to me. Yes I know your ability to coordinate in current testing phases is limited, but the option in the real game will be there for you to come up with a good group makeup just like the Lego's can. So that's pure strategy that again, has nothing to do with supports in this game being too powerful or poorly designed, and everything to do with a lack of skill on the part of your team. 

 

You wanted a PvP game that makes you think, strategize, and work together with your guildies? That doesn't cater to the newbies who haven't put in the time and effort? Ok, they're giving it to you. Quit your whining and step up.

 

 

I already talked about this a bit, but with the number of archetypes, promotions, and disciplines there will be a wide variety of "classes" with different tilts affecting their core purpose. My point about team makeup is that no single archetype should ever become a requirement. This is most common in trinity systems, but since that's such a common system I won't bother explaining it. I'm sure you know how it works. The end goal should imo be like League or other mobas, a wide variety of players with different makeups clashing on equal grounds. This game shouldn't be like WAR or Conan, where a team without (or with less) healers is drastically lacking regardless of their skill level or combination of classes. This became less true when anti-healers were added to WAR(slayers and choppas), but that also highlights my point... counterplay should always be the central divider between the good and the best.

 

Strategy should always be a possibility: I shouldn't be worried just because the enemy force has more supports. Instead I should be thinking on how I'm going to deal with them. That's not possible if there's no system or tools in place for it, forcing me back into the old mentality of "poorly made socks, they have more healers than we do" which, again, greats a dependency I don't want to exist. You literally just called having centaurs smart. That is, quite literally, a mentality revolving around Centaurs as a core component of any group which is exactly what I think is a bad thing. Rather than caring if I have as many Centaurs/Druids as the enemy team I should be worrying if my team knows how to effectively counter them, for example rangers locking them down with suppression while stealthers get the chance to close and put pressure on them.

 

Our strategies will be different, instead of two supports we have two more stealthers. Our goal is to pressure those healers, their goal is to protect them in order for them to provide that support and give their an advantage. Both should be equally viable and we shouldn't be at a tilted disadvantage simply because we don't have supports.

 

Lastly, I'm not whining. I'm bringing up what I think are valid points as logically as I'm able. You're not winning anyone over by coming across as an ass. My opinion of strategy and yours are obviously vastly different because the way healing is at the moment is most definitely not what I would call strategy dependent. Right now the system does cater to newbies as having healers/supports is simply the obvious choice rather than a choice that can be countered by a more intelligent and skillful group of players.

 

That's fine. We're both free to have our own opinions, but thinking you and yours superior is arrogant and really nothing else.

 

 

 

League of legends is also a 5v5 small scale arena. Crowfall is aiming at large scale siege warfare, where you're likely to encounter dozens if not hundreds of people. That's potentially dozens/hundreds of people attacking you. It's very hard to compare these two games to one another as they're catering to entirely different audiences and have completely different agendas. 

 

Let's take a game like Heroes of the storm for example, another moba, another 5v5 scenario, but WAAY more dependent on having a healer. Practically all the supports in HotS have heals (they've got other tools too, but they all heal on certain degrees). I'd wager that crowfall is aiming to be more like Heroes of the Storm (an ultra team dependent game, even more so than lol or dota2. There is practical zero solo carry potential), than those other game(s) you mentioned.

 

 

I sure hope not. Heroes of the Storm is considered widely to be the most casual centric of all MOBAs and has been more or less described as such by Blizzard themselves. I don't play it, but the fact that there are powerful healers (if what you say is true) doesn't say much about its balance. I was there when healing was almost the same as old early dota in both Dota 2 and League and watched both games struggle to come to a balance, since healing was simply too powerful in both. Champions that could heal were simply far too valuable and counterplay was fatiguing and difficult if it was even possible. I don't know how HoTS overcame what so many other MOBAs (even Smite and HON) struggled with, but good for them. Maybe ACE can do it too, then.

 

LIkewise, I know League is 5 vs 5 and fully understand that. However the vast majority of open world pvp, or at least the most common, is limited to small skirmishes. This creates clashes of varying size but usually somewhere around the max party size. The larger a force gets the more of a "blob" it becomes, with its specific makeup mattering less than its overall strength. Groups of that size are probably going to be limited to sieges, so it's a bit different of a dynamic, and a lot of the time it ends up being a field of mass skirmishes to some degree anyways if it doesn't just become a spammy zerg.

 

Were you in a pug? A premade? If you were in a premade, why not bring a champion and/or a ranger with suppression to deal with potential centaurs? Better yet, why not bring a centaur? You say that team composition is important, but dislike a dependency on healing, but what about a dependency on a knight? Or the necessity of having a damage dealer at all? I don't have issues with certain archetypes being a 100% necessity in a team based game like crowfall.

 As I said earlier, it's fine to make use of roles to create a fighting force. I'm really happy that supports are in the game as I enjoy playing them. What I don't want to see is any archetype being a requirement to do anything. If you don't have a stalker you should be able to make do with a ranger. If you don't have a knight then the sturdiest of your team (maybe it happens to be champions? Who knows?) can run disruption while your higher amount of damage burns down the fewer enemy damage dealers... like I said.. strategy should exist.

 

Organized warfare is as old as war itself. Even in League the current meta (at the time of me quiting) called for certain roles, however support did not mean healer. Midlane mages did not mean a nukey magic based caster... they could be strong pushers, supportive mages, and even physical damage assassins. They all commonly took the spot and affected your overall strategy. The whole point being that there is room for diversity and a variety of strategy and counterplay attached to all of it.

 

Healing was ripped out of League because it removed that as I humbly think it will here. Yes there are only two supports, but neither should be overly strong healers to the point that its their main attraction. My opinion, of course, but a leader should wave dismissively when regarding the healing ability of a Druid or Centaur and instead regard what else they bring to the team when thinking of their force. Even when it's a random smattering of players PUGing it up, I'd much rather a knight say "Man, I hope you're really good with Vine Walls ya silly druid, they make body blocking so much easier!" instead of "Yay we have a healer! Now we can actually do some pvping."

 

 

 

 

There are only two support archetypes in the game (potentially), so saying you need a healer and saying you need a support are one in the same. I guess that could change with specializations and disciplines, but all that is in the distinct future.

 

The fact of the matter is before 1.3 I could run around in my premade or a pug and literally mash face against other premades / pugs and come up the victory. Focus firing was important, but because healing was sparse, you didn't necessary need to do it. I've been in groups where everyone literally went about doing their own thing in a fight and we won, that doesn't sound very tactical or inspiring to me.

 

Post 1.3, focus firing is absolutely critical. Off target pressuring if they have two or more centaurs is necessary, coordinating CCs and suppression is a necessity. Healing actually has real presence in the game, and now groups need to figure out ways to deal with it. Tactics are born, where as before there wasn't as much need for them. 

 

I'm enjoying the game more now then I was before, cause I know people won't just fall over. I actually have to earn my kill, through team play and not just flow chart my way to victory.

 

Let's put it this way, if I was designing a full loot mmorpg, I wouldn't set it up so you simply drop dead in 10 seconds flat with no recourse. That's not fun.

This is a confusing point to make. How is killing someone who's being healed make it any more skillful a kill? If dying fast is the problem then adding healers isn't exactly the solution we should be going for. Sure, make battles last a bit longer and drawn out, but you don't need healers to do that. Personally I don't mind dying in 10 seconds if it's my fault or if the game is designed around it. I've played FPS games where it literally takes one shot to die and have lasted longer than 10 seconds even in intense firefights. I've never once thought that a kill was worth less or any less deserved simply because someone wasn't keeping my opponents alive.

 

Earning a kill meant overcoming my opponent. If they managed to still lose to me with the help of a healer then they probably aren't that good to begin with and so I probably didn't really earn anything in the first place... of course in a game like this the dynamic is a bit different since balance isn't based around 1 vs 1, but the concept's still the same (in my opinion).

 

The point is in the challenge. I love me a good challenge which is why I despise cowardly roles such as snipers and rogues with a fiery passion. I want my opponent to fight back, to pit his skill against mine, even in a group setting. I enjoy support roles the most, but only when they require some degree of thought or effort. Skill vs skill doesn't have to mean a duel to the death. Surviving clever plays to kill me as the support, clutch bubbles or bursts of speed to aid an ally, timely cc to secure a kill or allow a retreat, this is what supports thrive on. It's a different kind of battle for us and it's most evident in games like MOBAs where we aren't often regulated to the traditional MMORPG role of spammy healbot. I really do think MOBAs did some things right which is why I point to them a lot since I think they learned lessons from MMORPGs/RPGs that I feel don't need to be relearned. Look at all the supports in all MOBA games currently and count how many of them use healing as their main purpose. I promise you it's the minority and there are some very clever renditions of supporting out there for the rest of them.

 

We don't need to recreate the traditional healer and just call it support. There are a lot of other ways we can be helpful to our group and create more interesting chances for play and counterplay. Healing in the game is fine, but again and again I'll say, as a support player myself, that it should never be our prime focus or benefit to a group and there should be plenty of counterplay to stop healing.

 

I'm a medic in the US Army (and am in no way bragging, I apologize if I came off that way). The way healers are portrayed in games at best draws a soft smile from me, but I understand well the ease with which we can point to "magic" and the fact that it's just a game. In real life though our job is dangerous. If someone is wounded then that spot at the very least is a known dangerous point. Usually we have to wait and watch our guy bleed out until infantry push forward and secure the position or find a chance to drag the wounded away before we can even treat them.

 

If I had to make a full loot game I'd make healing just like that. Small yet noticeable, but indecisive during combat so the focus is shifted to all the many other ways we can help as supports. Outside of combat I'd allow more powerful heals, forcing the concept of retreating, increasing the value of protecting a support (just like in real life, who'll treat you and the other guys if the medic goes down?). This would also make flanking and countering it via scouting much more important and would give additional roles to those pesky stealth players by having them killing fleeing foes and finding the retreat points where supports are refreshing their guys. Especially in this game what with decaying and destructible bodies added on to corpse looting that will give players a much stronger fear of death.

 

That's just me though, and again as with everything else only my humble opinion.

Edited by Cerulean Shaman

Wearily do I sleep eternity away.

Without fear or haste, on bedding made of solitude and silence.

 

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SNIP

 

OK that's a lot of text and I'll read it in detail later when I have time, but before I forget, I have one thought. I keep seeing this comparison to League and other MOBA's but that comparison just does not work. You cannot take a combat and class/role system out of the larger context of the game it's in.

 

In MOBA's you'll die a lot and it's not a big deal. Free port back to your starter area where you can level up/buy a few things and get back out into the fight a minute later. In Crowfall, your death is kind of a big deal. You may potentially lose your gear and valuables in your inventory, putting you back progression wise, potentially forcing you to retreat back to where you have some stored. It will also likely take you quite a while to even run back into the fight depending on where you spawn, so your team is at a long term disadvantage without you and the more people they lose, the more it's possible your group may need to retreat from the fight entirely and regroup before going back - or potentially losing all together. Death has a massive impact, and as a result has a massive impact on how your group plays together, and the impact that each individual class and role needs to have. 

 

Further to that idea, the lack of a healer on your team, or the fact that your support might be on the other side of the map and not actually there with you all the time, isn't a big deal in a MOBA. You'll have fights without them there and some with them and that's expected. The absence of just one role - of any kind - in a group fight here is going to be huge. It could potentially mean your loss. This is a game where fights are often going to be group vs group of varying sizes. Not a 1v1 in the middle of a lane where we're just grinding mobs and if my opponent beats me, all he gets is a minute or so of potentially free lane clearing time before I'm back in his face again. Or the fact that in a MOBA, your team is often individually doing their own thing and only coming together for short encounters as opposed to Crowfall where your guildies are your lifeline and you are there playing alongside them through everything, because if not, your risk of dying is high and the loss from that death is huge. All of this means that group combat and way the roles play together is completely different. 

 

Sure you can take some basic inspiration from a MOBA, but that's as far as you can go. The nature of MMORPG gameplay - and one such as Crowfall in particular - makes meaningful comparisons between MOBA and MMORPG group gameplay and class/role design impossible. There are just too many fundamental differences in game design for that comparison to be of any value.

Edited by Leiloni

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So making combat deadly isn't a thing cause reasons. And you can't respawn, prepare extra vessels and equipment, or summon your corpse to graveyards. K, just clarifying.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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OK that's a lot of text and I'll read it in detail later when I have time, but before I forget, I have one thought. I keep seeing this comparison to League and other MOBA's but that comparison just does not work. You cannot take a combat and class/role system out of the larger context of the game it's in.

 

In MOBA's you'll die a lot and it's not a big deal. Free port back to your starter area where you can level up/buy a few things and get back out into the fight a minute later. In Crowfall, your death is kind of a big deal. You may potentially lose your gear and valuables in your inventory, putting you back progression wise, potentially forcing you to retreat back to where you have some stored. It will also likely take you quite a while to even run back into the fight depending on where you spawn, so your team is at a long term disadvantage without you and the more people they lose, the more it's possible your group may need to retreat from the fight entirely and regroup before going back - or potentially losing all together. Death has a massive impact, and as a result has a massive impact on how your group plays together, and the impact that each individual class and role needs to have. 

 

Further to that idea, the lack of a healer on your team, or the fact that your support might be on the other side of the map and not actually there with you all the time, isn't a big deal in a MOBA. You'll have fights without them there and some with them and that's expected. The absence of just one role - of any kind - in a group fight here is going to be huge. It could potentially mean your loss. This is a game where fights are often going to be group vs group of varying sizes. Not a 1v1 in the middle of a lane where we're just grinding mobs and if my opponent beats me, all he gets is a minute or so of potentially free lane clearing time before I'm back in his face again. Or the fact that in a MOBA, your team is often individually doing their own thing and only coming together for short encounters as opposed to Crowfall where your guildies are your lifeline and you are there playing alongside them through everything, because if not, your risk of dying is high and the loss from that death is huge. All of this means that group combat and way the roles play together is completely different. 

 

Sure you can take some basic inspiration from a MOBA, but that's as far as you can go. The nature of MMORPG gameplay - and one such as Crowfall in particular - makes meaningful comparisons between MOBA and MMORPG group gameplay and class/role design impossible. There are just too many fundamental differences in game design for that comparison to be of any value.

The best gamers are the ones that can see patterns through various genres and apply things they learn from one genre to the next. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Nice to see such substantive counter-arguments. Until you have some detailed explanations and reasoning I'll have to assume you agree with me and don't want to admit it.

 

You're making a lot of assumptions in that bit of text above where you allude to the 'cost of defeat' as if that's a bygone conclusion when it's not. It's like someone- I don't quite recall who- said early on, referencing the 'large number of game design dials that can be tweaked'. Now, whether or not you agree with that statement is your own business, but taken with the other statements regarding healing that have already been quoted in the thread, I would say it sets expectations in a certain place.

 

I did not interpret that place as "I guess we'll start with a 'combat support' (who heals) and then our next support will... uh, I guess he'll heal, too". If I were personally to start this thread on the same topic, I can say that my rhetoric would be considerably harsher than was the OP's. I might say something about how making claims of exploratory design and then rolling out your support classes as no better than the firehose healers you decried at the outset is at best lazy, and at worst... well! It's not my thread.

 

I get that there are arguments to be made in favor of healing, and I'm pretty sure I've heard every one of them ten times before. I get that healing is not in and of itself bad design. But the argument that "healing is necessary, there's no getting around it, it's an MMO, it's just the way it is" is not one that I buy. Given that at the outset the designers didn't seem to buy into that either, I had hopes that I would at least get to play the game pre-release in a state where healing wasn't super fundamental to the combat.

 

The fact that we have six pages of people combing the rhetoric of every single FAQ and interview just to try and prove that they aren't backpedaling is pretty telling in itself. I personally don't think it's nearly as vague an issue. I don't plan on getting too worked up until I've actually played the game, but it's hard. "No major healing" is probably among the top three design choices that interested me in this game, and it doesn't seem to be getting even a second thought as development moves forward.

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I get that there are arguments to be made in favor of healing, and I'm pretty sure I've heard every one of them ten times before. I get that healing is not in and of itself bad design. But the argument that "healing is necessary, there's no getting around it, it's an MMO, it's just the way it is" is not one that I buy. Given that at the outset the designers didn't seem to buy into that either, I had hopes that I would at least get to play the game pre-release in a state where healing wasn't super fundamental to the combat.

 

 

That's not what I said. I said that using a MOBA as an example to support any argument regarding class and role design in an MMORPG just doesn't translate. You can make whatever arguments you like as long as you have sound reasons to back it up, but gameplay and overall game design of a MOBA is just way too different. The comparison's just can't be made. Like I said, it's a good place to get some inspiration, but you can't copy/paste the ideas and expect it to work well in a game like this that has such different game design. You have to further develop the idea to mold to the game they're making. I'm just tired of people thinking they can say "Well my favorite MOBA does this and it works well there so why can't ACE do the same thing". It's just a naive statement to make.

 

But on the topic of "healing is necessary", I do have some thoughts on that. I've probably at this point played every iteration currently found in MMO's of role design. I've played standard MMO's - both with the trinity and with the 4-role system. I've played GW2 which just spread the healing and support around to every character instead of just one, although they've since backpedaled on that and introduced dedicated healers for raids (although still less powerful healers than standard games), I've played Black Desert with no real roles of any kind and only minimal support in Witch/Wizard and Valk, and that's a potion spam fest no matter how you swing it, and I've also played Skyforge which tried to replace player healing of any kind with shielding skills and that turned out pretty terribly (yet they still have healing "orbs" dropped by monsters for PVE and potion spamming in PvP too). 

 

Based on what I've played, and I'm sure I've forgotten some, you have few options. Without healing you have damage mitigation methods such as straight up shielding and also CC. CC is technically effective but you'd need too much of it and that's not fun in PvP. Shielding is just staving off the inevitable. You can make really powerful and/or short CD shielding skills, but that's not much different in practice than a healer (hello Disc Priest). If you lower the damage preventive-capabilities, you either end up with too short fights (which is not fun), or you have to lower the damage output (which is also not fun).

 

I'm open to ideas, but a lot of things have been tried by a lot of games and none were particularly spectacular. ACE is currently focusing on the idea of light healing in conjunction with a variety of buff, debuff, cc, and resource regeneration skills which so far seems like it could work. We'll have to see how it develops.

 

Also I promise I'll read the book-long post later tonight, it'll just take me a long time to reply to that and I don't have more than a few minutes at a time for the next like 5 hours lol.

Edited by Leiloni

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You said, which doesn't prove anything. These discussions don't produce results because ppl think their opinions and explanations are self evident while pretending to dismiss others arguements with false authority and baseless denial.

 

In fact, different games or references do apply a tremendous amount of insight into a games design, and dismissing the lessons and behaviors learned from them because their not identical is myopic and childish.

 

Perhaps you feel like you've put more effort of thought into it, but it's pretty silly to pretend that the most recent remark is a summary of all the thoughts and effort they've contributed while bloating a subject with circular logic and self confirmation like a point has been made, excuse you...


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Again, I disagree. Sorry for using League as an example yet again but from a structural viewpoint it's very effective as an example (or at least I think so). League works whether or not you have champions capable of healing themselves or others. What changes is your strategy and how you approach the enemy team. Having a self heal/heal heavy team means a bad team will get stomped while a good team will adjust their build order and playstyle to counter, both of which the game allows.

 

This is called counterplay. It rewards strategy and thinking and promotes skill. Right now a team without Centaurs is at a huge disadvantage. This forces the team without healers(which, as you said, is apparently supports in general now) to desperately kill the enemy healers, a very typical and cliche maneuver centered on old trinity systems. This is because, like the developers themselves have said, healing creates a multiplicative effect on the team's overall health if they can heal easily and constantly. It's not quite as bad as a true healer at the moment, but it ain't so great either imo.

 

In your above situation the enemy team simply needs to play on equal terms because their healers will effectively grant them a higher health pool. Likewise, Centaurs can contribute to damage and have fairly powerful support skills to further tilt things. This creates a dynamic where they are required rather than being a choice. In League you don't need champions that heal themselves or others- it's just one of many viable strategies even in a meta that's constantly shifting.

 

Likewise, there needs to be counterplay. Healing needs methods to be countered (like suppression, agreed), possibly silences, or a way to put pressure on supports. Granted another archetype may do this as a specialty down the road... but currently we don't have the tools for counterplay so it's viable as a complaint.

 

I'm am almost 100% positive that if two teams of equal skill met, one with centaurs and the other without, the result wouldn't be a very close match.

 

I'm not asking for the Lego to be changed which seems to be a misunderstanding you made. I want their healing to be more open to counterplay or more tools to deal with healing that they can also counterplay. So yes, I guess I am asking for more tools for other archetypes and hope the upcoming changes to Lego via Druid's healing tech also helps by allowing those windows to exist.

 

 

 

I know what you're saying here and you have some good points but a few things to consider - like I already said, there are various reasons why some teams are not doing as well vs Lego's right now, either due to coordination, team makeup, strategy, or other things. Don't exaggerate the current situation.

 

Also, you mention healing "easily and constantly" and even the Lego's can't do that, nor were they intended to. And they've already made some changes to the class to take it back to it's original intentions. So they're trying to balance already the idea of light healing with other forms of support. And there is some counterplay in the other classes already so that's there and further balancing can be done if need be. 

 

But I also think there's a need for some type of support for a few reasons. Number one the idea of roles creates much more interesting gameplay and much better team dynamics and group gameplay. Hop into GW2 or Black Desert and it's just not the same. Sure there are strategies and ways to play with a group but it's not as necessary or as cohesive. Those games feel much more like solo players playing next to each other instead of with each other. A certain amount of reliance on the other roles in your group is important.

 

Beyond that, you need some form of support just so fights don't end too early. Fights in a PvP game like this are more final. You can't just hop back in, so you want to feel like you had a good chance to put forth your best effort and use more than two skills before dying. You have a few ways to achieve that - lower damage output which is not fun for anybody, or have ways to mitigate, prevent, or heal up damage. There has to be some of that, otherwise fights are way too quick. They don't need to be all powerful Korean style "I can heal you to full in one heal on a 2 second cooldown" classes. Nobody is asking for that here.

 

People are however, emphasizing the need for some light healing alongside other support skills. No game can really achieve proper combat without some form of mitigating and healing up damage without fights being super short and often very one sided. There's not enough time for good back and forth between groups and skill  to emerge beyond one lucky combo killing you.

 

 

 

 

I already talked about this a bit, but with the number of archetypes, promotions, and disciplines there will be a wide variety of "classes" with different tilts affecting their core purpose. My point about team makeup is that no single archetype should ever become a requirement. This is most common in trinity systems, but since that's such a common system I won't bother explaining it. I'm sure you know how it works. The end goal should imo be like League or other mobas, a wide variety of players with different makeups clashing on equal grounds. This game shouldn't be like WAR or Conan, where a team without (or with less) healers is drastically lacking regardless of their skill level or combination of classes. This became less true when anti-healers were added to WAR(slayers and choppas), but that also highlights my point... counterplay should always be the central divider between the good and the best.

 

Strategy should always be a possibility: I shouldn't be worried just because the enemy force has more supports. Instead I should be thinking on how I'm going to deal with them. That's not possible if there's no system or tools in place for it, forcing me back into the old mentality of "poorly made socks, they have more healers than we do" which, again, greats a dependency I don't want to exist. You literally just called having centaurs smart. That is, quite literally, a mentality revolving around Centaurs as a core component of any group which is exactly what I think is a bad thing. Rather than caring if I have as many Centaurs/Druids as the enemy team I should be worrying if my team knows how to effectively counter them, for example rangers locking them down with suppression while stealthers get the chance to close and put pressure on them.

 

Our strategies will be different, instead of two supports we have two more stealthers. Our goal is to pressure those healers, their goal is to protect them in order for them to provide that support and give their an advantage. Both should be equally viable and we shouldn't be at a tilted disadvantage simply because we don't have supports.

 

Lastly, I'm not whining. I'm bringing up what I think are valid points as logically as I'm able. You're not winning anyone over by coming across as an ass. My opinion of strategy and yours are obviously vastly different because the way healing is at the moment is most definitely not what I would call strategy dependent. Right now the system does cater to newbies as having healers/supports is simply the obvious choice rather than a choice that can be countered by a more intelligent and skillful group of players.

 

That's fine. We're both free to have our own opinions, but thinking you and yours superior is arrogant and really nothing else.

 

I think what you're asking for here already exists in game. I don't think one single archetype will always be necessary but I do think you'll want every role. More than one archetype can fulfill every role here and that's no different from a MOBA. This game still has roles, they just don't have dedicated healers. It's similar to a MOBA in that you have certain roles you want to fill and a choice in what archetype to bring to fill that role. The only problem right now is that they haven't finished all the archetypes yet so you're limited in how your build your teams. That's not a design issue, it's just an issue with the game being very much unfinished. So try to keep that in mind when playing current tests. It will get better as time goes on and you have more options.

 

As to the strategies you describe I completely agree and again, that's already there and will just get better as they develop the game further.  Nothing about their current design goals should prevent any of that.

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Okay, I don't see this as backpedalling yet because we don't know what abilities the Druid will have.  ACE have stipulated there will not be "firehose" healing which is fine.  However, healing still has a strategic part to play in the game.  I think we need to wait and see exactly what powers are given to the Druid and also, give the Druid some time in testing before we start threads like this.

 

As long as the Druid doesn't end up as a "firehose" healer, I see little problem in it's inclusion.  Especially as we are still far from complete on the archetypes front.  Frankly, we're going to have a lot of back and forth on composition, simply because we don't have all the options available to us.

 

However, with this announcement, I'd be inclined to move the healing ability that Lego has off of the tray and replace it with something else.  Healing just never really fit in the Lego vibe for me and I think they'd be far better suited to having something else.

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Okay, I don't see this as backpedalling yet because we don't know what abilities the Druid will have.

Good chunk of my thoughts on this aswell.

 

They listed off 3-4 ways a druid could heal ( without revealing any of the actual powers ) but they haven't really mentioned what the rest of her kit(s) are planned to be for initial testing other than her second bar is about damage.

 

I have faith that ACE will balance healing numbers, heck to prevent a stacking of healers they could always make heals overwrite each other, or add diminishing returns to heal spam from a flock of druids, or a herd of Lego's if they keep they healing after the upcoming change.


Landmimes, the silent killer.

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Agreed. I also think they should put the Legionnaire back to what he was initially designed for, a melee DPS, and let him shine gloriously in that role. The support just makes him appear weak in my eyes. It doesn't fit at all with the lore of the centaur people imo.

 

I'd remove all the "role" icons altogether since I think they do not bring anything beneficial to the game. We don't need to know that the Knight is a "Tank", we can just look at it and figure out the armor is going to protect him.

 

As far as the support role for the Legionnaire is concerned... yup, pure poison.  Someone else stated in this thread that it didn't really matter if you could heal a little or a lot, if you can heal that is your purpose (paraphrase), and they're right.  Conceptually, the Legio is a tragic mess.  I, for one, would really appreciate ACE letting the centaur, bred to be a warrior, be the iconic badass they undoubtedly first envisioned, instead shoehorned into healer role.  

Edited by Regulus

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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As far as the support role for the Legionnaire is concerned... yup, pure poison.  Someone else stated in this thread that it didn't really matter if you could heal a little or a lot, if you can heal that is your purpose (paraphrase), and they're right.  Conceptually, the Legio is a tragic mess.  I, for one, would really appreciate ACE letting the centaur, bred to be a warrior, be the iconic badass they undoubtedly first envisioned, instead shoehorned into healer role.  

 

Personally I think a support role fits the Legionnaire excellently. All of their support powers, both buff and healing (which was recently and thankfully nerfed a bit in my eyes) are flavored as commands and battle cries. The centaurs have been given a Roman theme and what made the roman's amazing a warfare was their tactical abilities. So a character that spurs his allies forward and opens up holes in the opponents defense for allies to exploit is perfect.

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Personally I think a support role fits the Legionnaire excellently. All of their support powers, both buff and healing (which was recently and thankfully nerfed a bit in my eyes) are flavored as commands and battle cries. The centaurs have been given a Roman theme and what made the roman's amazing a warfare was their tactical abilities. So a character that spurs his allies forward and opens up holes in the opponents defense for allies to exploit is perfect.

 

Roman commanders probably weren't able to heal the wounds of their soldiers. I would be fine with the Legionnaire retaining certain "morale" type of buffs, like increasing attack power, health regeneration, resistances, etc., however I think that the Legionnaire shouldn't be categorized as a support that can heal its allies. They could always create another Centaur archetype and give it more healing related powers, a kind of battlefield medicus.

Edited by courant101

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The new changes to Lego feel too clunky and ineffective. Having a 1 second cooldown heal with a huge rage cost and ineffective numbers was the wrong step. Causes severe rage issues which prevent you from utilizing your other abilities and making you feel like you be using it as often as you can to keep the pathetic HoT up on yourself.


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Personally I think a support role fits the Legionnaire excellently. All of their support powers, both buff and healing (which was recently and thankfully nerfed a bit in my eyes) are flavored as commands and battle cries. The centaurs have been given a Roman theme and what made the roman's amazing a warfare was their tactical abilities. So a character that spurs his allies forward and opens up holes in the opponents defense for allies to exploit is perfect.

 

Some light, battlefield commander type support would be interesting.  However, it doesn't appear that ACE wants to let the Legio be light support.  The point of this thread is that it does seem that ACE has gone from minimizing healing to making it a pivotal mechanic in game and running with it (some have argued that if you allow healing much at all in a tactical, competitive PvP game that it becomes the primary role of any support player by default).  The other issue is that, and someone already posted this here as well, that they are trying to make the Legio into too many things and therefore he sucks at all of them.  He can't be a badass centaur because, you know, healing is more important.   

 

I also have to strongly disagree with you about his current role fitting him "excellently" and being "perfect."  Go read the Legio fluff, look at the model--if you come away thinking that character should prance about lovingly caring for his teammates then you have an odd concept of perfection.  When I found out that the Legio was going to be support, I cringed a little but thought that ACE might be able to pull it of--yeah, he's a battlefield commander, so it might work!  Nope, he's a healer/buffer.  That is not "perfect."     

 

Finally, I submit that they should hang support roles completely and simply distribute support abilities throughout all the archetypes. If someone wants to play a support character, let them develop which ever archetype they like through advancement and disciplines and play style into their very own Soraka. Sadly, the information surrounding the release of the Druid has pretty much indicated the well trodden path that ACE intends to take ("but I always player a healer" players can now rejoice!) and in my opinion it is bad news for CF and, in particular, the Legio.     

 

EDIT:  Seriously, how much cooler would it be if they made each class have some support that helped their group?  Perhaps through the secondary effects of their skills, the Legio buffs mana, the Knight buffs defense, the Confessor buffs damage, etc.  Every archetype would be desired for these effects.  And, if they either took healing completely out or gave every archetype the ability to heal,  no archetype would be required.  If someone wanted to be a healer, they could do so by virtue of how the developed their character.  

Edited by Regulus

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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EDIT:  Seriously, how much cooler would it be if they made each class have some support that helped their group?  Perhaps through the secondary effects of their skills, the Legio buffs mana, the Knight buffs defense, the Confessor buffs damage, etc.  Every archetype would be desired for these effects.  And, if they either took healing completely out or gave every archetype the ability to heal,  no archetype would be required.  If someone wanted to be a healer, they could do so by virtue of how the developed their character.  

Did you ever try Guild wars 2? Such an approach made everything a self reliant flailing DPS stacking fest.

 

(for the healing on every archetype)

Edited by Tinnis

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Finally, I submit that they should hang support roles completely and simply distribute support abilities throughout all the archetypes. If someone wants to play a support character, let them develop which ever archetype they like through advancement and disciplines and play style into their very own Soraka. Sadly, the information surrounding the release of the Druid has pretty much indicated the well trodden path that ACE intends to take ("but I always player a healer" players can now rejoice!) and in my opinion it is bad news for CF and, in particular, the Legio.     

 

I agree with most of the things you've written, however I think that specialization is something beneficial in MMO games since it fosters teamplay and reliance on other players to fill the gaps of our build. I like the idea of being able to obtain new powers that aren't related to the basic build of our archetype through discipline runes.

Edited by courant101

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