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taroskin

Ace, Are you back pedalling on Healing?

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So basically, you should have made Druid or Templar much earlier to cover this role, but instead made Centaur and Champion, and since you already proxied Centaur as a support, your stuck on it, giving us wonderful affirmation that disappointing choices get reinforced instead of reevaluated.

 

Pro tip, Templar could have covered defense and healing with the already produced model instead of implementing knight, but I guess you can only continue down the path you've blazed, resources and consequences being what they are...

 

 

You seem to have missed the part below where he mentions the need to create the Centaur body model early on to avoid issues. So the Centaur was being done regardless. There's more to think about when developing than just role design.

 

We wanted to do him early since his body carried with it many animation risks that we needed to explore and mitigate. Unfortunately we didn't want to have 1 tank and 2 dps in the early Hunger Domes. Neither of the other 2 remotely fit the bill for Support, plus we also wanted to explore melee/ranged with the other two.

 

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You seem to have missed the part below where he mentions the need to create the Centaur body model early on to avoid issues. So the Centaur was being done regardless. There's more to think about when developing than just role design.

I don't know how slow I can describe this, but they could have made T E M P L A R instead of K N I G H T, with D E F E N S E, and H E A L I N G, than support would have been covered and Centaur could have been produced as ADVERTISED.

 

Why does everything have to be spelled in crayon? Do I need to describe everything in detail?... o wait, of course I do, because you clearly didn't realize it on your own.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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I don't know how slow I can describe this, but they could have made T E M P L A R instead of K N I G H T, with D E F E N S E, and H E A L I N G, than support would have been covered and Centaur could have been produced as ADVERTISED.

 

Why does everything have to be spelled in crayon? Do I need to describe everything in detail?... o wait, of course I do, because you clearly didn't realize it on your own.

Was Knight not the first class they made official, the mascot so to speak? I'm going to go out on a limb and say that when they put the Knight in they weren't considering the fact of no healer. Should they have  ? Possibly, but like life, poorly made socks happens, you over look things, you correct them when you realize you overlooked it. It would be great if everything in this world was perfectly planned and ran smooth, no curves, just straight lines. have you never made an error, have never realized "oh crap, I could have done this so much easier by doing X first" after the fact. This is what happens when running a business, all new businesses run into speed bumps and hiccups that probably could have been prevented had X been done instead of Y, but that my friend is how we learn from our mistakes.

 

You don't like it, we get it, perhaps you should send the Dev's a PM explaining the equation to achieve perfection in all things that you seem to have figured out.

 

Now instead of being constantly negative, why not try to give some feedback on how to fix this issue that doesn't require time travel

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Heck, where is there even the slightest indication that the Templar will have healing? Did a dev mention it somewhere on the boards because I can't find any news post about it.

 

A link to where they said the Legionnaire would be dps would be appreciated as well.

Edited by Vonpenguin

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Heck, where is there even the slightest indication that the Templar will have healing? Did a dev mention it somewhere on the boards because I can't find any news post about it.

 

A link to where they said the Legionnaire would be dps would be appreciated as well.

 

The Legionnaire was presented here and at that time the icon for its role was Melee/DPS.

 

https://www.google.ca/search?q=%22legionnaire%22+%22melee+dps%22&gws_rd=cr,ssl&ei=WX4NV5mUJMiy-wHmsYWIAg#q=%22legionnaire%22+%22melee+dps%22+%22crowfall%22

Edited by courant101

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Yeah, cause bad changes are okay right Keaggen?, perhaps when your spouse cheats on you, you'll just say, "hey, mistakes were expected".

 

Apok, it really doesn't matter if they announced knight first, human archetypes are simple to swap around, and they had Templar and Knight models in their demonstration video, along with Frostweaver.

 

What they announced first is a trivial concern compared to honoring their archetype claim, ESPECIALLY when it is the MOST DISTINCT RACE ADVERTISED IN YOUR GAME!

 

You gonna have a knight shoot beams out of their sword with poor defense and have high defense archers melee attacking and blocking with a bow? Why would you have a Centaur in armor be your initial healer and tie the mobility of a horse to a tender of group resources?

 

I'm sorry the gravity of this mistake is lost on most, but the strategy we are supposed to be getting begs for intelligent positioning and movement. We wouldn't even have this chasing dilemma if they planned for flight and chasing to be an intended part of combat and archetypes specialization. When you lack foresight, the opportunities missed are exponential.

 

It would have been easy to brand the second tank, a holy knight, as the classic defend and heal paladin, and create a natural distinction between a tank that uses a shield and heavier armor vs a tank that has less defense but compensates with spell power to heal.

 

It's just crazy that these things have to be described, by the fifth archetype they could have introduced knight instead of Champion to increase the amount of defensive support available to larger engagements.

 

I'm done, it's all hindsight, I mean it's actually foresight, because I've been here long enough to predict most of these problems before they did this, but they just don't get it.

Edited by bahamutkaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Yeah, cause bad changes are okay right Keaggen?, perhaps when your spouse cheats on you, you'll just say, "hey, mistakes were expected".

 

Apok, it really doesn't matter if they announced knight first, human archetypes are simple to swap around, and they had Templar and Knight models in their demonstration video, along with Frostweaver.

 

What they announced first is a trivial concern compared to honoring their archetype claim, ESPECIALLY when it is the MOST DISTINCT RACE ADVERTISED IN YOUR GAME!

 

You gonna have a knight shoot beams out of their sword with poor defense and have high defense archers melee attacking and blocking with a bow? Why would you have a Centaur in armor be your initial healer and tie the mobility of a horse to a tender of group resources?

 

I'm sorry the gravity of this mistake is lost on most, but the strategy we are supposed to be getting begs for intelligent positioning and movement. We wouldn't even have this chasing dilemma if they planned for flight and chasing to be an intended part of combat and archetypes specialization. When you lack foresight, the opportunities missed are exponential.

 

It would have been easy to brand the second tank, a holy knight, as the classic defend and heal paladin, and create a natural distinction between a tank that uses a shield and heavier armor vs a tank that has less defense but compensates with spell power to heal.

 

It's just crazy that these things have to be described, by the fifth archetype they could have introduced knight instead of Champion to increase the amount of defensive support available to larger engagements.

 

I'm done, it's all hindsight, I mean it's actually foresight, because I've been here long enough to predict most of these problems before they did this, but they just don't get it.

 

I think it probably comes down to they likely already had begun developing a lot of the Knight skills by the time they realized they had to switch Centuaur so it was too late at that point.

 

I honestly think people are blowing this way out of proportion. Let's just take a step back and look at the idea of the Lego currently. It's a fairly standard archetype we've seen in many other games, your melee support with buffs, debuffs, cc, and some light healing. I know I've played characters like this before and I'm sure others have as well in other games. They're fun melee characters on their own but you'll have enough customization options in this game that you can take it farther in the dps direction if you want, or continue down a path of melee support. 

 

It's early right now but I think people will see the Lego eventually fit the Centaur's battle commander idea really well and those that enjoy a melee dps idea will be able to play that. Anyone here play Aion and see the Chanter? You could spec either support or dps and those that enjoyed melee dps with a few buffs specced for that and could do some really badass dps, along with having buffs, heals, and cc. It was really good.

 

There's nothing so far in Crowfall's development that says you won't eventually be able to spec between advanced classes and disciplines (edit: and gear, now that damage and support will be different stats), into a more dps focused battle commander if you want to take it more into the original direction. ACE may not have even developed those advanced classes and disciplines much yet, so if that's something you're really passionate about, maybe give them some suggestions as to what you'd want to see.

Edited by Leiloni

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I think it probably comes down to they likely already had begun developing a lot of the Knight skills by the time they realized they had to switch Centuaur so it was too late at that point.

So, their not smart? Perfectly reasonable shortcoming. Of the many flexible things they could change, putting Templar tech on the Knight til they could separate the roles would have been on the easy as all hell chart. Kinda like the Assassin tech being melded into Ranger til they get more done.

 

I know your trying to be understanding, but the irreversible damage done doesn't compete with the trivial setback your describing.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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If I remember correctly ACE already explained that the Templar would be a kind of hybrid (?) between the Knight and the Confessor and would reuse some of their mechanics. When they've done the KS demo, the archetype that was the most seen was the Knight and it was already pretty advanced in development I guess. The Templar seemed to have only the basic attack and one or two powers done. ACE probably wanted to get the active blocking, chain pull and iFrame immunity stuff early in the tests. Also as Apok said, the Knight is the first archetype to be presented to us through the website banner so it makes sense to include it in the test.

 

Anyway, it's not like they need to justify every choice they make. They've decided that like a year ago so... time to move on I guess.

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I think it probably comes down to they likely already had begun developing a lot of the Knight skills by the time they realized they had to switch Centuaur so it was too late at that point.

 

Yeah, kinda... Sadly, it seems to me that if you put 2 and 2 together it equals limited resources.  Basically, as Mr. Blair used the term "unfortunately" himself, I would say the Legio is the victim of logistics and an inability to go in reverse at this point. 

 

However, I do agree with Bahamutkaiser that this is a pretty significant and avoidable bit of misfortune.  The Templar ("paladin") and Confessor ("priest") would have made more apparent support classes.  I share Bahamutkaisers disappointment and irritation which, for me, has piqued now because of the vibes now being sent out by ACE that healing is going to be more significant than we were originally led to believe.  I did try to make arguments to salvage the Legio, but I did not understand that it was too late to fix him, thus I put some miles on my keyboard for no reason.   

 

On the bright side, I now hate the archetype and will go out of my way to kill one, if given the chance.  This is convenient too because it is always good to kill the healers ASAP.

 

Bring on the Minotaur!  Now, if I could only change my registered name from Roman to Greek...   

 

EDIT:

Also looking at the Forgemaster a little more closely now... that hammer looks like it could smack some ponies around!

Edited by Regulus

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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It seems that most are accepting of the changes, that doesn't mean they are out celebrating and doing a happy dance but, they are willing to accept that this is the route they chose. I guess they could technically say "alright Templar will be our next release at which point we will redesign the Lego(again) and make the Templar the second support" which imo is a complete waste of development time which equates to wasted funding.

 

I won't dispute that it does seem to make more sense that the Templar fits the support role better but they can't very well go back in time and change the class release order. They needed a support class to test the waters with healing, of the 4 classes at the time Lego did make the most sense. Knight was an obvious tank, Fessor was the only nuking mage type, Champion is a pure melee DPS, so left Lego that could be played with. Coulda, shoulda, woulda, is all fine and well going forward in hopes that they realized their mistake (if it was a mistake in the first place) so they can avoid it in the future but you can't really asked them to change the order of what has already been released.

 

In my opinion of course. 

Edited by Apok

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Bro, don't you know that if you have one healing ability in tie power tray you're the teams fire hose healer?!?!

 

Get with the times!

Sure..... and use that ability too much and you take more damage and more damage yourself until you die or you switch to your damage bar... then who heals?  I suppose if you have a second druid who is dealing damage while your healing then you switch.... but that leads to some interesting coordination between the healers.


Lf6MJUL.png


Wrathmane - Remnant of Ascendance

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I, for one, welcome the Legionnaire as a support role.

 

I don't see a disconnect with the lore. They fight on the front lines. The fact that they are also healers does not disqualify them from calling themselves warriors.


IhhQKY6.gif

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It seems that most are accepting of the changes, that doesn't mean they are out celebrating and doing a happy dance but, they are willing to accept that this is the route they chose. I guess they could technically say "alright Templar will be our next release at which point we will redesign the Lego(again) and make the Templar the second support" which imo is a complete waste of development time which equates to wasted funding.

 

I won't dispute that it does seem to make more sense that the Templar fits the support role better but they can't very well go back in time and change the class release order. They needed a support class to test the waters with healing, of the 4 classes at the time Lego did make the most sense. Knight was an obvious tank, Fessor was the only nuking mage type, Champion is a pure melee DPS, so left Lego that could be played with. Coulda, shoulda, woulda, is all fine and well going forward in hopes that they realized their mistake (if it was a mistake in the first place) so they can avoid it in the future but you can't really asked them to change the order of what has already been released.

 

In my opinion of course. 

 

Yup, Two handed Swords are totally more healer-esque than Polearms.

 

Why is everyone assuming that just because a warrior is religious means they have holy magic? It's not even like they are called Paladins, the standard name for the knights with holy power.

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It seems that most are accepting of the changes, that doesn't mean they are out celebrating and doing a happy dance but, they are willing to accept that this is the route they chose. I guess they could technically say "alright Templar will be our next release at which point we will redesign the Lego(again) and make the Templar the second support" which imo is a complete waste of development time which equates to wasted funding.

 

I won't dispute that it does seem to make more sense that the Templar fits the support role better but they can't very well go back in time and change the class release order. They needed a support class to test the waters with healing, of the 4 classes at the time Lego did make the most sense. Knight was an obvious tank, Fessor was the only nuking mage type, Champion is a pure melee DPS, so left Lego that could be played with. Coulda, shoulda, woulda, is all fine and well going forward in hopes that they realized their mistake (if it was a mistake in the first place) so they can avoid it in the future but you can't really asked them to change the order of what has already been released.

 

In my opinion of course.

Yeah, your right, I was here a year ago, telling them these were bad decisions to begin with, they shoulda listened than. But hey, tossing your hands up and investing more into a bad decision will make it better, right?, right?, of course that's right. Cause Centaur can be compromised, but their throw away second knight has some sort of unique integrity and value that can't accept a super difficult to program hand wave and healing features that need only be transferred.

 

Not that Templar is the only option, Forgemaster was submitted as a melee support at launch as well.

 

Why do I even bother, they got half time healer barbie coming up next, and still haven't demonstrated creative support actions, also advertised during kick off.

 

Don't mind me, just b!tching about what you said you'd do when you collected my money, plenty of ppl here to excuse your deception.

 

P.S. don't mind those Templar promotion classes with Vonpenguin.

Edited by bahamutkaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Yup, Two handed Swords are totally more healer-esque than Polearms.

 

Why is everyone assuming that just because a warrior is religious means they have holy magic? It's not even like they are called Paladins, the standard name for the knights with holy power.

To be clear, I don't care which one is support, I'm just as content with the Lego as I would have been with Templar as support. To answer your question though, Templar is a Religious Knight or Holy Knight, it would seem fitting that they would have some form of a divine power over a Roman Foot Soldier. But again, to me it really doesn't matter in the end, I personally do not mind that the Legionnaire is the support.

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I mean, being frank, the title Templar and the compassionate lore they tied to it is more healing related than all of the other archetypes except Druid. And if that wasn't enough, their announced promotion class is Paladin.

 

But hey, Centaurs and legionairies are totally heal related, right? Good enough for the completely mismatched Centaur but not the most appropriate Templar, AMIRIGHT?

 

Good thing they're looking to implement something simple like Templar with existing features next. Oh, don't worry, they won't recon Centaur, they'd have to come up with something creative for them to do if he wasn't healing, something appropriate for the cavalry, not intended for this non-strategy game.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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But hey, Centaurs and legionairies are totally heal related, right? Good enough for the completely mismatched Centaur but not the most appropriate Templar, AMIRIGHT?

 

 

I mean if we're getting into semantics, some legionaries in ancient Rome were actually specially trained in various disciplines, including things like medics and even musicians. They were more highly trained and better paid than the basic legionaries, actually.

 

Sidenote, ACE you may want to rename Legionnaire to Legionary. Legionnaire is apparently a reference to a lot of things, none of which have anything to do with the Roman Army. The proper term for them was Legionary.

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Yeah, kinda... Sadly, it seems to me that if you put 2 and 2 together it equals limited resources.  Basically, as Mr. Blair used the term "unfortunately" himself, I would say the Legio is the victim of logistics and an inability to go in reverse at this point. 

 

...

 

I did try to make arguments to salvage the Legio, but I did not understand that it was too late to fix him, thus I put some miles on my keyboard for no reason.   

 

...

 

It does occur to me, however, that this means that by the time they announce a new system or function for an archetype to backers, it is likely too late to make changes.  Once we get information these things have had considerable time in development. 

 

Minor tweaks are still probably something players can influence, or presumably things that ACE expressly request we influence, but other than that there seems to be very little point in discussing some of these things.  Sure, people who have backed have every right to express their concern or delight in design choices, but really, it makes little to no difference. Why?  Because resources (time in particular) are limited.  

 

 

EDIT:

Which, I might add, makes any change--be it changing the nature of an archetype, increasing the presence of healing, or implementing large, far reaching systems like Crows/Vessels--from the design as we knew it when we backed the project potentially even more disheartening because, again, it's a done deal.  Also, things like the currently hotly debated AoE damage adjustment are probably not something backers have significant influence over and are likely not worth discussing.  Food for thought...

 

EDIT II:

On the bright side, suggestions potentially have more worth, presuming they occur prior to ACE making a decision. 

Edited by Regulus

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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