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xcomvic

Class or Classless System?

Class System or no?  

466 members have voted

  1. 1. What would you prefer to see, a class or classless(skill point based) system?

    • Class (Traditional Holy Trinity)
    • Class (Non HolyTrinity)
    • Classless (Skill point based)
    • Something totally different (please post what that would be below!)


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Classless for sure, so tired of trinity I should beable to define how i want to play, yes that means some builds might be more viable then others but that all comes down to making sure those other skills are updated and kept useful.


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Classless, non-holy trinity, but also a skill point reward system that works more like XP.  I don't want a game where someone sets up a macro to max out x skill or y talent just to bypass actually playing the game to get the bonuses.  I'm a huge fan of SWG's skill tree, though not of their lack of content at the start of the game, where I spent way too much time killing random termite mounds for 100 credits from a mission terminal.  Snoooooze-fest.


"Darken the moon and conceal the stars; our Light will never be extinguished." - The Tome of the First Flame

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The Lantern Watch - A Crowfall-first guild. Welcome Home. Join us @ http://crowfall.shivtr.com

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Roles in the party are as old as Dungeons & Dragons. Even if i build a classless, skill-based system, i will still have roles (even if i'm free to mix them up).
I'd like a game where everyone, almost everytime, could fill a role.
So there are many possibilities about it. You could do an equipment-based system like Albion Online or FFXV (i believe il XV).

Or maybe you could choose to have skill branches that resemble classes (even maybe the trinity) and having, maybe "by tutorial", a basic amount of points in all of them.

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Classless, but with the option to go single target healer, group healer, tank, "crowd controller", buffer, single target dps, aoe dps, dot dps, summoner, ranged, melee, magic-based, or whatever combination you want.

 

My point is: roles must be there, but not just 3. That's why the game should create situations for everything, not just meta builds.

 

If I want to create some kind of Paladin, with sword/shield, some magic and heavy armor, I should be able to do it.

Or some kind of bard, just to improve my party performance and go here and there casting charms I should be able to do it too.

I very much agree with this, the concept of the "Holy Trinity" is something that I very much enjoy but lacks variety. I really want to have a wide array of roles available to me, and I want to be able to REALLY specialize. 

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Classless with a hard skill cap, aka you raise only skills that suit your playstyle and decay skills that you don't use. A hard cap both for combat and craft professions.

 

It be nice if we have more roles based on our carma too, the good people who protect, crafters, merchant explorers, with a buff, the evil people who gank their same race with different buff.

Of course everything along with a good alignment system.


Archduchess Alice

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I like the original class idea, which is what I voted, but, I would love  to see something new, not sure what, but something that we haven't seen yet. ^-^ 


I say to you: the Hunger is not your enemy. Your enemy walks among you, charming and handsome, with a tongue full of lies.

 

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Well, to be it looks like it might not be classless, there seems to be a lot of different people in the art, and also a mouse? Guinea pig in armor? Not sure. There's also people looking like a mage, a warrior, a knight, and a hunter. 

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I think that classes should effect how you start the game and grant you a set of passive ability's. and 1 or 2 basic active ability's that scale.

Weapons, defense, magic, and craft, are skills that any one can learn but there is a limit to how many skills you can learn.

 

Skills are advanced buy assigning points has you level. The higher rank a skill is the more points it requires to progress in it, Skills unlock ability both passive and active, active ability scale directly buy use, passive ability scale buy using active ability that have a synergy with the passive ability.  Passive ability scale slower then active since a passive can have several synergy's  

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A thought occurs that you might be able to find a happy medium between a skill-based system (EVE Online) and an equipment based system (FF 14).

 

Consider a medieval knight.  In the real world, while they may have had individual preferences for certain weapons over others, they drilled and trained with a number of weapons.  They had to be able to fight effectively both on foot and horseback.  They didn't carry one sword and one shield and call it good.  They had a panoply with them: swords, lances, maces, flails, axes, even bows and crossbows. It wasn't necessarily because they were expected to use all of those weapons at once, but to employ the right weapons for the right situations.  They may have preferred one weapon over the other, possibly even mastered it, but saying they couldn't swing an axe effectively just because they had mastered the sword is ridiculous.

 

To go more fantasy, consider an archmage.  The knowledge of how magic operates in one situation or another is important, but so is knowing how those situations can interrelate is another.  Knowing how to how to resurrect a person would be not merely a fine distinction from animating a corpse, but a situation demanding knowledge about both life and death.  The power to summon beings from an elemental plane would be related to the power to summon demons or celestials, but would require very different rituals and knowledges.  Every magic user from the lowest hedge-wizard to the most powerful archmage might have a copy of "My First Spellbook," but an archmage would have a full library of spellbooks, each one containing the right set of spells for certain situations.  One archmage might be better at illusions, another might be more conversant with enchantments, but they both have that vast body of knowledge to work from.

 

From a game perspective, equipment would define abilities (a sword allowing a Disarm move where an axe might have a Sunder; a grimoire of elemental magic allowing casters to launch fireballs but a book of holy rituals giving healing spells), while skills would define their effectiveness.

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I love the classless skill based system. The only issue is everyone who PvPs eventual becomes one class aka the Hally Mage in UO. 

 

I dig the idea of a classless system that rewards diversity in your choices. If you master certain skills, like swordfighting, then you can unlock something like Spell Reflection, making it harder for mages to kill you. 

 

If you keep a skill system open and reward certain choices then players have more to tweek or work with in their end game. All of this can be done without having to define your character as a paladin or whatever. 


Garrett Fuller

MMORPG.com

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I don't mind the idea of classless, but as a beta player in several other MMO's, I got to like the idea of becoming the class associated with whatever weapon you happened to be carrying , as in ESO.

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I'm confused. You don't like a classless system because then people will go on about "optimal builds" but you're ok with how many different races and classes that people will break down, analyze and then come out with "optimal builds"?

 

You're going to have the same min/max chasers regardless of what system is in place. The only difference is whether you have a problem with being one of those min/maxers or whether you can play the way you want to play and make your own decisions.  

I went on a tangent because I'm tired of seeing potentially great games ruined by the "I want to be able to do it all" attitude.  For more tangent, scroll past this first part.

 

It is more challenging as players to have traditional class builds.  WOW was harder initially because of this, and now everyone can solo blindly and numbly through content.  Fantasy archetypes are recognizeable as well, which is what the big authors always went for.  They were brilliant, why can't this be brilliant as well, i.e., there must be a reason why class based archetypes are in novels and movies that have been wildly successful. 

 

Heck, this entire genre wouldn't exist if not for the trinity based tales of yesteryear...along with games like Everquest and Dark Age of Camelot.

 

And finally, once you can't do a bit of everything, you have to be willing to go out into a community, have a personality, and get folks together who can fill in each other's weaknessess.  This adds an entirely new element.

 

2 cents.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Let's see how the industry was born:  Dungeons and Dragons game books, you and your friends, playing recognizeable archetypes whose skills and abilities stay within the confines of something that would LOGICALLY suit the training.  So a ranger might have druidic ability down the road, or a thief might engage in some minor spells, but they will (a) relate to his class, i.e., illusion based ( B) in the least be very well thought out in respect to the main class the player chose.  But the core of the experience was built on recognizeable classes based on a pseudo medieval role.

 

So now we know how it all began.  It's gone all over since in the electronic industry.  And that's why we're having this talk here.

 

                                                                                              I'll sum up my feelings this way:

 

The challenge of the old school mmorpg came from interdependency.  Learning how to make up for your weaknesses by joining folks who filled in the blanks for your class.  Hence, the trinity became the foundation by which all groups could be built on.  If you have a game where everyone does a little of everything, then you add a different element to the feel of the experience, one that I believe feeds into the more "adolescent" attitude of today's gamers, i.e., I want to be able to do whatever I want, I don't want to be limited, you can't tell me what to do," mentality.  Trust me, I'm not trying to be rude, but if the mmorpg is a place to escape into the worlds we read about, or see epic grand scale movies about, I want the game that has the ranger, the warrior, the wizard, each depending on the other for what they themselves cannot do.  That was the beauty of the old gaming world.

 

That interdependecy is an element of the mmorpg that folks are forgetting about, especially those who were not there when Everquest went live, or Dark Age, etc. Back then, if you wanted classless, you played Ultima Online.  If you wanted true high fantasy (Thank you Tolkien), you went into Everquest and if you loved massive siege warfare with races and classes being DIFFERENT under each of the three factions, you went to Dark Age.

 

I know you'll state that classless mage tank rogue healer archers are interdependent too, because Bob's mage tank rogue healer archer might have 23% mage, 17% healer, 30% rogue and 30% archer, making him a heal support dps class, while your mage tank rogue healer archer might be 50% tank.  This might appeal to you and it does to many, my hope is that folks get that this can have a very cheesy effect on what used to be a very logical, viable trinity based genre that has worked beautifully within the RPG world from Dragon Age to old school WOW (When it was really hard since you had to depend so much on other classess!)...and finally, to the sitting with friends on a Friday night playing Dungeons and Dragons, and knowing that in this time period, Bob really is just a rogue.

 

 

 

 

  "You're going to have the same min/max chasers regardless of what system is in place"

 

Yes, of course they will.  But in a classless system, an optimal build will contain a hodgepodge of abilities, such as a plate wearing wizard stealther healer archer...And I call big cheese on that concept.  That's taking a quality mmorpg and turning it into something that looks like nonsense.  Tell me about that last novel you read where you had characters like that.  How about the biggest selling fantasy movies of all time?  See a wizard caster rogue archer anywhere?  Of course not.  Now, pointing to Sauron or gods would be silly as well.  Unless you think players in an mmorpg should be built like a god or an otherwise other immortal entity - then you might as well go play Smite Online.

 

                                                                

"The only difference is whether you have a problem with being one of those min/maxers or whether you can play the way you want to play and make your own decisions."

 

The difference as I hope you can see from what I'm stating, is that we will have a game filled with I can do it all classless classes.  Folks have been conditioned to get a little bit of everything in a class, including World of Warcraft, which started as a class based system, and while it still theoretically is, each tree for every class offers similar abilities so that each class can...do it all.  Even rogues can heal themselves in combat with a heal over time.  And why not, everyone else can as well. 

 

Puddles, if that still doesn't matter to you, then how about this. 

 

In a class based system, you will be more locked into what you are and dependent on the archetype you chose.  A man in plate will probably have weapons and shield expertise at some level, with one weapon providing their best damage or chance to hit output.  This guy will tank in a pve setting, and perhaps if the game is advanced enough (like in Dark Age), will be able to block for people he's grouped with and shield slam incoming enemies and so forth.

 

A healer class might have some basic dps capability, especially if the lore provides a hybrid option (think Valkyrie from Dark Age based on Norse mythology), or a healer might be like the traditional Dungeons and Dragons cleric.  Either way, they will be a recognizeable heal class, and it's up to them as to how much to invest in that.  But still - they are recognizeable.

 

Each class in the end, and here's what I see as being most important in this classless debate, will be interdependent.  In WoW, and other such games, folks wanted to be able to do it all, and they got their wish.  Everyone can solo without need of anyone else if they so choose.  There's no dependency on other players.  It's nice for gearing up, raids and so forth, but in the end, you don't need to invest in other folks.

 

 

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Anyway - this is my two cents to the concept.  I'm not here to convince anyone, folks will do what they want to do.  I believe much of what has ruined the industry, i.e., the fun of mmorpgs, is that RPG is gone.  RPG, role playing game, is dead.  We are now a genre of massively multiplayer online E-Sport gamers.  So in a genre where we once had tradtional classes, medieval worlds, recognizeable lore (in the same way George RR Martin pulled from the 100 years War and the War of Roses, or Tolkien's obvious love with The Ring of Nebulung and Germanic/Celtic legend, or Dark Age of Camelots brilliant investment into the world of Arthurian legend and the Dark Ages period of Europe)...we now have a mish mash of everything, recipes for classes and worlds that have so many ingredients that they have lost their flavor.

Perhaps' that's a decent analogy...classless builds have so many ingredients, that they have lost their flavor.  They aren't melee, they aren't healers, they aren't truly dps, they are a little bit of everything.  Kind of like en elementary school teacher, where you have your kids in one room all day (until recess and gym), because it's your job to teach a bit of everything.

It all sounds pretty elementary to me.

 

Anyway - I'm off.

 

/2 cents.

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