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kosef

Shadowbane - Treachery/entropy

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TSL/KoT here.

 

 

I still have my timeline page up for anyone interested - http://themess.com/timeline/ 

 

 

6/9 CoS lifts bane from Arcania

Arg of ToW and Swiftkill Valthanor of CoS meet to negotiate. End result is ceased destruction of the city and the arranged removal of the bane circle.

 

Incorrect information. That was me who talked to Swift and got CoS to not act on it. Arg had zilch to do with it, he was just a dude I picked up from Skye because he had a couple million gold and he paid for some buildings. That was all. This was shortly before I joined CoS.


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~Black Aria IC~

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Incorrect information. That was me who talked to Swift and got CoS to not act on it. Arg had zilch to do with it, he was just a dude I picked up from Skye because he had a couple million gold and he paid for some buildings. That was all. This was shortly before I joined CoS.

Cool. What was name of the character that negotiated with Swift? Let me know and I'll update the page.

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Why wouldnt PRX and KGB buddy up this time around?

Why would they?

KGB is one of those guilds that are a pleasure to compete with or against in any game.

 

One great thing about CF is that the single-server architecture doesn't split the community and force guilds to choose which handful of other guilds they want to play with at release. GW2 had that and in our time there I feel like we were able to fight every notable guild in the game, including those we competed against when we went to Europe.

 

I just hope the campaign system allows for enough guilds and variety that the community isn't stratified too much amongst different campaigns.

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KGB is one of those guilds that are a pleasure to compete with or against in any game.

 

One great thing about CF is that the single-server architecture doesn't split the community and force guilds to choose which handful of other guilds they want to play with at release. GW2 had that and in our time there I feel like we were able to fight every notable guild in the game, including those we competed against when we went to Europe.

 

I just hope the campaign system allows for enough guilds and variety that the community isn't stratified too much amongst different campaigns.

 

 

Please bring that second place mentality to the dregs; the sb style world with no predetermined politics because it's all player run and designed to mimic the sb style political infrastructure. 


40 minutes ago, Andius said:

W/HoA were held up as like these mystical forces of highly skilled players with legendary theorycrafters chained to a desk in some deep dungeon holding all the arcane secrets we could use to win if only we knew them.

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Cool. What was name of the character that negotiated with Swift? Let me know and I'll update the page.

 

I hardly think it matters now :P But I was the gl, Mauvais Silverburg.


Crowfall%20Fei.png

~Black Aria IC~

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The Treachery Timeline has always been an excellent resource. Thank you for keeping it up. If I knew that you were still willing to update it, I would have made a greater effort to preserve information for its inclusion. I suspect that you quit when my own guild went into action as there aren't many TSB items. Believe it or not, a lot of cool stuff happened on Treachery after CoS left. Even though a gigantic chunk of the server was allied together for much of its time, it was still a great political server. I might have a gem or two saved on my guild's old message boards that you might be interested in posting.

 

Disclaimer: Since we're discussing Treachery memories, you're going to have to brace yourselves for a wall of text. If you didn't play on Treachery and/or are uninterested in the server's political history, your reaction will likely be TL;DR. I will explain more on why later, but the average Treachery board-warrior will probably find something to appreciate in this post. I loved the Treachery server and we all know I love to tell long-winded stories about myself!

 

Believe it or not, I was also in the Knights of Terror. I had a character in it for quite a while, brought my cousin (a confessor Mike-O) and a RL friend too. Even though I was banished and we had an enduring political blood feud, they were actually a pretty good group of guys. My first character (Endlosung) was a rogue bladeweaver ranger, and without access to high end gear, proccing weapons, and due to the power and prevalence of healer casters before the block nerf, the character was a hopeless cause in GvG. The only way I could enjoy myself on the character was through ninja looting every group in the Bog of the Black Drake (the only high-end leveling zone that CoS allowed non-affiliated nations to farm), and these groups were typically run by allied guilds. Since the Bog was always overcrowded and the groups therein were mostly distracted by the anticipation of a Diceclock appearance or a raid from 409 or JDD, I actually made a fortune. I did this mostly uninterrupted, would halt temporarily after an obligatory reprimand from a KoT officer to assuage ally whines, and return to it again at the next available opportunity. The KoT officers always threatened to ban me for political reasons, but never went through with it just for the ninja looting. With each reprimand was an implied wink as I did try to hook my guildies up.

 

I crossed the line, though, when my cousin and I summon killed Port Wickwire, the guild leader of TSL. I'll never forget his melt-down in /tells. KoT was an ally of TSL and I think that they somehow considered themselves a "sub" of TSL even though they were not technically subbed (I never understood this). One of the KoT officers said it could cool over if I apologized and pled ignorance of his glorious in-game stature and relationship to KoT. I asked that he be summoned to KoT's capital so that I could grovel for mercy in person. As I'm sure you already guessed, we killed him again. KoT was forced to banish me. Port Wickwire personally assured me that I would be barred from essentially every guild on the server as he claimed that he would bane any guild who recruited me. I LOL'ed at him at the time, but this guy was dead serious!

 

Hoping to continue my Bog ninja looting racket (I was hooked - it was almost as good as my cross-server ctrl+V item drop scam in Asheron's Call), I joined Treachery's Lords of Death. This had no relation to the Death LoD and, if I remember correctly, it was run by Horsemouth who continued to play a centaur prelate for the rest of his life (last I saw he was still running it in the ranks of the Yakuza on the Mourning server in like 2007, lol). I lasted a few days before Port Wickwire found out. To keep the peace, they had to get rid of me.

 

What they failed to realize was that I was a young and devious "plotmaster." They had not yet banished my cousin, One guild that I had always wanted to join was 409. I'm not sure how many Treachery players will remember them, but they were pretty infamous during their day. They were a purely errant RPK guild with a red channeler symbol on a black background crest. They always murdered hordes of people with only a half group of characters. Their two most notable members were probably UO's Colombian (a mage bard who led them) and "OJ-Simpson from Ultima," a confessor. They were the first guild who ever massacred one of my groups, and after that first wipe I initiated a friendship with Colombian. He was surprised as most people would (predictably) get butt-hurt after getting slaughtered and spam him with /hate tells. Even when I was in KoT, I would occasionally do recon for them in the bog. I stealthed, laughed as they slaughtered my gonzo group, and ran off with the group's collective farming loot that I had always "lost" after getting "owned" by "those bastards!"

 

Colombian and his crew happened to be on-line when I got the boot from Treachery's LoD. I told him of my predicament and he agreed to help me slaughter every gimp in LoD's capital city. My cousin played the Trojan Horse and summon chained these guys and myself into their city. We both got to wear the 409 crest for the first time. With our 6 or 7 character group, we slaughtered every LoD gimp at the tol. We held the city for a few hours, crushing every LoD counter-attack into the city, and they brought multiple groups each time. It was a euphoric moment for me as I had never before been a part of a small band murdering so many players and while grossly outnumbered to boot. This didn't necessarily mean that we were PvP gods, as LoD was a large guild that openly recruited everyone and that generally sucked at GvG, but we sure felt like PvP gods.

 

Inebriated with the intoxication of our own illusory immortality, we started to do some asset damage although Colombian generally did not bother with such things. This infuriated LoD as 409 was an errant guild and was essentially immune to any reprisals of the same nature. LoD was no longer playing any games, and we scattered / recalled when we picked up the combined forces of TSL, KGB, and LoD on track. I had no idea how many players they brought (probably 4 groups at the least) and we didn't stick around to find out. I wanted to go down in a blaze of glory, but I learned that Colombian did not ever want to get wiped, ever.

 

409 were probably not technically the best PvP'ers on the server, but like I said, it sure felt like they were. They never sieged and they exclusively preyed on the weak, but I think that they were the best killers of opportunity on the server. At the end of each run, everyone except Colombian would leave the guild. No one was permitted to wear the crest unless Colombian was on-line and we had a group composition that would decimate our unsuspecting foes. As I said before, Colombian did not ever want to lose. So much so that he was extremely careful and generally risk averse. We would never fight as 409 unless we held the element of surprise and it was extremely likely that we would prevail. We would kill the farming groups of everyone but only camp the cities and torture the guilds that were pretty awful. I honestly had never seen them get wiped. Colombian did not hesitate to tell me that my ranger sucked bottom for PvP and that melees sucked in general. In order to remain in the guild, I had to create a new character - a caster with max int and golded block - so I made a healer channeler named "Man Against Time" and wreaked havoc with these guys. In addition to killing all of the gonzo guilds, we also had a few successful forays into the elven territories of CoS. These raids added more to the euphoria as I truly thought that CoS was invincible. More on this later, but CoS was actually invincible - in sieges - but even they had farming/leveling groups that were not always vigilant with watching track, and I suspect that this was due to the general lack of balls/morale within the guilds that composed the anti-CoS alliance. I knew that there was the rare coordinated assault on the impregnable Val'Haven, but while I was in KoT and other anti-CoS oriented guilds I had never witnessed them conduct a raid on CoS' PvE groups in CoS territories. I should also add that I was on a lot, and if I didn't see it occur, it probably almost never happened. I'm not sure if JDD even attacked CoS' farming groups - but 409 did, at least a few times. Although they preferred easy prey, they genuinely did murder everyone without discrimination.

 

I had a ton of fun with the 409 guys for a couple weeks, but they were not as active as I had originally hoped. I had to endure the difficult errant lifestyle in between each murder spree - while each murder spree was insanely fun, the errant life of mindless open tree ganking and tons of summon killing in between became monotonous relatively quick. I made an attempt to join another neutral PvE guild for those in-between times - I'm pretty sure their guild-name was "Enigma" - but I kid you not, the Port Wickwire threat came through again, which I had honestly not suspected due to my identity change. Port Wickwire was tenacious, and still disgruntled.

 

I thought about trying to join CoS, but I really did not want to be a part of a large nation. On UO and the Asheron's Call Darktide server, I had always played in smaller and tight-knit RPK guilds. On AC DT, I hated playing in the large and dominant PK nation known as the Blood monarchy or "Keepers of Chaos," and CoS seemed to be another version of that to me. I didn't feel like writing out a guild application, but I bit the bullet, applied to Juevos del Diablo (JDD), and got accepted.

 

Like 409, JDD was a small, tight-knit guild of RPKs. They were a little different from 409 though, as they were considerably larger (could field 1.5 to 2 groups), owned cities, and controlled territory (small ice island). JDD also used TeamSpeak (409 were mostly RL friends and actually did not do so - we just did everything on the fly). JDD was on a different level, was highly organized, and was politically astute for a guild that pretended to role-play as serial murderers (probably a carry-over from their UO Siege Perilous days). JDD was genuinely like a disciplined virtual brotherhood; its guild-members were quite close to one another, and, believe it or not, at the time the guild had an internal code. Again, this may surprise some, but I distinctly recall that we were expressly verboten from talking trash. Theta demanded that we not say a word to outsiders and only let our killing do the talking for us. The guild demanded excellence in GvG, and if you were admitted into the guild, you did not want to get chewed out by Theta for sucking. Most if not all of the board-warrioring was done by BigCountry (believe it or not, not even I posted at this time - I may have still been banned from the Ubbforums though), and despite being RPK, the guild engaged in opportunistic political intrigue from time to time. JDD was the first guild that I joined who knew how to siege, and they could perform quite well despite almost always fighting superior numbers. Prior to joining JDD, I honestly didn't think that any nation other than CoS could perform well in a bane. I do not recall if we destroyed any particularly important cities, as our opponents would always bring in all of their allies to protect their pixels. JDD possessed a fraction of the Covenant's members, but if we sieged a Covenant opponent, we had to fight the entire anti-Covenant coalition anyway. When I was in JDD, we all thought that we were pound-for-pound the best PvP guild on the server. Maybe we were right, maybe not - I'm sure that the old JDD members of that time would agree with me, while I'm sure that members of the CoS core and members of PRX would probably disagree. Whatever the case, there was mutual respect between JDD and the CoS guilds. I also don't care what anyone else says, but man-for-man JDD was certainly superior to ML, TSL, and KGB.

 

Now I get to say a few words about CoS. I've noticed that a lot of players who have never encountered them seem puzzled, skeptical, and occasionally defensive when a former CoS member shows up on an SB forum displaying unabashed CoS elitism. "Who was CoS? I never heard of them, they must have sucked," "You never heard of CoS? Are you kidding? We were the best guild ever. We did this and that during beta, dominated Treachery, did this on Corruption, yada yada," "You were good in beta? Who the custard cares? U suck" "No u" and so on and so forth. I've seen this happen a few times over the years, most recently with Fei on the SBEMU forums. My legion of fans who both love and loathe me will all tell you that I do not mince words, kiss anyone's bottom, or praise any of the unworthy. I think I am unrivaled in my ability to engender tropes of butt-hurt board-warriors who become consumed in ressentiment as they watch their fragile e-gos shatter before my laser-guided AoEs of truth-telling. Just so that we're clear that I'm not white knighting for Fei, I'm going to state at the outset that the Test server was the least competitive Live server in existence and that Get Along Gang sucked. I know this from personal experience as a small group of my Vengeance guild-mates were briefly distracted by promises of "great PvP" on the Test server from a player known as "deviant" who owned a few tols there and promised to equip any who joined him. About a group of us went (TSB players and a few would probably self-identify as "Malice"). GalG had the most cities on the server at the time. With completely farcical characters, we dominated everyone on the Test server at the time, GalG included. We didn't remain on the server for longer than two weeks because it was such a joke. I was left with a very poor impression of GalG and the Test server in general. I thought that the Entropy server was behind the curve vis-a-vis Vengeance, and it was, but Entropy had nothing on Test. A "good" guild on Test would have been crushed by the worst guilds from Entropy, or even Treachery, or even Mourning. No, I didn't make any videos, and my only evidence of my experience is my own word. If a Test server player's fragile ego requires active denial for its preservation, then be my guest. Anyway, on to CoS!

 

I played on a number of different competitive servers from '03 - '07, fighting with or against many of the historically great guilds of Shadowbane, or derivatives of them, and plenty of them ended up on Vengeance at its peak. I don't know how CoS would have fared on Vengeance during its ultra-competitive peak or how they even would have fared on post-migration(s) Mourning. Relative to their own time and place, however, I have never seen a nation dominate a server to the same extent that CoS did. Nothing that I witnessed following my experiences on the Treachery server compared to CoS' hegemony during their tenure on Treachery. I'm not exaggerating when I say that comparatively speaking it was in a league of its own, and would seem virtually unreal to those who did not have direct experience. I've lost count of how many pusillanimous Magicbane players developed PTSD after getting regularly dumpstered by 2 - 2.5 groups of Wehrmacht; players who possess this level of composure would have undeniably slit their wrists if they fought sieges against CoS on Treachery.

 

As I said previously, I was initially a member of Knights of Terror, and they were a guild aligned with the anti-CoS coalition on Treachery. I participated in a number of defensive sieges against CoS, and a number of these were in defense of capital cities owned by comparatively large and powerful guilds who spearheaded the anti-CoS effort on Treachery. No joke, the average defensive bane went something like this, virtually without fail:

 

  • Anti-CoS nations muster in the city to be defended. There are probably around a dozen different nation crests assembled. A ton of us are present. We got a lot of gimps, sure, but we got a lot of gimps. Maybe 150 or so, but I didn't count. People feel powerful, yelling positive nonsense about an imminent victory or finally turning the tide against the vile elvish horde, yada yada.
  • CoS forces appear on track within relatively close proximity. Brace yourselves for a long battle boys!
  • Some confessor with a really dumb name, called KVent, who led the PRX sub-guild of CoS, yells in /shout that "IT'S CLOBBERIN' TIME!!!!!!" Now you know that they're really close.
  • Within minutes, the entire anti-CoS force is dismembered, curbstomped straight into the dirt. Feelings of great power subside into feeling like a pre-pubescent who just got chokeslammed into the cement by some 230 lb bully on steroids who occupied the same turf as you only because he failed the third grade seven consecutive times;
  • A short time thereafter, the entire city is reduced to rubble, and Aerynth receives a new influx of a Detroit-like level of broken & homeless gimps

You can't blame me for wanting to run with the small RPK guilds. I originally thought that banes totally sucked bottom. Treachery was like a giant refugee camp during CoS' hegemony. CoS controlled all of the best leveling zones at the time, leaving the entirety of the anti-CoS coalition to fight over table scraps in the Bog of the Black Drake - which CoS left to them out of some warped form of sadistic pity. After a series of banes like this, HeRog would unilaterally declare cease-fires with the anti-CoS nations just so they wouldn't quit the server in droves.

 

Was CoS the best guild in SB history? Like, in terms of average player skill? I would say probably not. A few flaws in any CoS "best of all-time" argument is that they really didn't have any competent competition; they dominated in an era where most of the Treachery gonzo guilds didn't even use TeamSpeak or Ventrilo; although they were probably outnumbered by the opposing coalition in raw terms, CoS was still a very large nation overall, most likely the largest singular nation entity on the server; in the greater scheme of things, they didn't really last all that long. Most of CoS quit to go play SWG with KVent Vader (or Skywalker, or whatever - who cares, that game blew bottom), and, like NATO after the USSR dissolved, the anti-CoS coalition kept their alliance, becoming the new server zerg, and a much crappier one at that.

 

All that being said, I think a compelling argument can be made that HeRog Valthanor was the most successful Shadowbane tyrant of all-time. Add in the anecdote that he 'allegedly' pocketed a small fortune from selling his SB pixels, and he arguably "wins" Shadowbane to a much greater extent than anyone I've ever heard of.

 

Anyway - CoS leaves, JDD leaves for Death, I form my own guild because I don't want to part with my own Treachery pixels, 15 pages could follow about my own guild's history and the Chaotic Front's (Freedom's Stain / JDD / TSB) war with the anti-CoS nerd convention, but I'll spare all of you as I've already written about that crap years ago. If you feel so compelled, you can read that here http://shadowbaneemulator.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=78955#p78955 (written around a decade ago now, holy poorly made socks). Happy Clown Shoes, and if you actually ever believed that it would take me '12 hours' to write a mere 4-5 single-spaced pages, you're crazier than I am. Would and could write more, but not even I am loserly enough to bifurcate this rant into two separate sittings. I suppose my closing thought will be that if my walls of text exacerbate your ADHD, I am partially a product of the Treachery Political Forums. Crassus and Mocker were very high-level forumbaners/spinsters, and good target-practice for a 16 or 17 year old (now I'm almost actually old). We may not have been the most competitive PvP server, but I would double-down on a bet that we had the most verbose community of board-warriors at the time. We may have even had the highest average verbal I.Q. compared to all of the other servers - combined - and it was a paradise for grammar nazis. Now that I think about it, HeRog was probably the worst writer on there.

 

If I were truly insane, this would be the point where I solicit donations to my Kickstarter page.

Edited by managainsttime

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Scourge of the Shadowbane community, Public Enemy No. 1 to the SBEMU Forum Moderators, and member of the "Suppressed Person" faction on the Ubiforums. The man responsible for hooking up Ceska and CheckYoTrack. Also a 21-time World Heavyweight Champion of Shadowbane.

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Thought we will agree to disagree about Test, the rest is a nice writeup.

 

 

CoS head to toe probably wasn't the most "skilled" in Shadowbane history. But CoS was the best well oiled war machine in SB history. We had the best pvp generals to play the game (Swiftkill, KVent, ect). The organization CoS had for a nation that was that large was out of this world. We had scouts that played their roles at the most optimal level (Agelmar would find CoS enemy forces out in the middle of nowhere, where they thought CoS would NEVER look), we had the meat toons who did their job (who don't remember big ol' Moose on his mino barb running at folks), slaughtering the casters/healers, everyone on target ect. It was never a cluster f*ck.

 

HeRog was without a doubt the best political bullpoorly made sockster on the forums. Mr. "Destoryed" was a brilliant political lead man. Never did someone represent a nation as dominant as CoS as well as he did. He could get under anyone's skin, and spin any debate to make you look stupid. All with a smile.

 

CoS was special for the fact it wasn't but a nation of several guilds that worked so well together, even nowadays is near unheard of. PRX, Cadre Quietus, Endless Stand, Iron Circle, Lost Order of Akalabeth, House Perilous, even Shadow Legion before they went rogue only to lead a rebellion that got the entire server burned down to a crisp.

 

I'd say the competition on Treachery was fine compared to other servers. Redemption was a large beta guild, knew the ends and outs of the game. Combine at the time was a major guild who had success in many other games, and was very formidable on SB before Deyth pussied out and they left the server. KGB, a well established guild hailing from UO, also from beta, though they was filled to the brim with people who didn't know how to make a toon right.

 

CoS was just as I said, a well oiled machine, be it pvp or farming for what was needed. First tree of SB production on any server, which at the time was VERY impressive. No CoS cities were lost on Treachery or Corruption. For those who remember, we come back (CoS) on the last few days of Treachery, and the final day we held off the entire server, plus admins deleting walls and spawning r8 mobs on our heads (all them walls burning was awesome)...but still the elves stood tall at the end. Val'Haven never fell. Very few, if any, power guilds can say they never lost a capital, let alone a city. We was just that damn dominant.

 

 

As for Treachery LoD.....I'm the one who talked them into going to SB, I knew them from UO Atlantic. Horsemouth was a friend of mine, and though he was "leader" of the guild on SB, Rulenoff was the real GL. We ended up having to wipe them later, after they baned Val'Haven after CoS retired, when it was turned into a merchant city. Those of us who was left from CoS had formed Remnants of the Sword, and was based out of Wainwright, PRX's ice fortress they left to us. I can't remember if it fell or not when we was RoS, I do remember the Treachery alliance baning it out of spite, and we was severly out numbered as RoS.

 

Anyways, I just hate when you got new guys who did nothing in live, but claim dominance in a emulator who show no respect. Frankly CoS would have poorly made socks on today's WM with PRX alone. They just don't know what real guild organization and strategy was.

 

As for the other guilds you mentioned like JDD. They was a nice RPK guild, infact Theta is in our nation playing with Doon and ODB. He seems a bit more mellow now than back then lol.

Edited by Khazzeron

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~Black Aria IC~

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ummm....side note...

 

i had rolled up on both Treachery and Mourning...

 

and i was subbed to Combine, and actually at the bane on the UDI city that crazy day....most not able to log in, strange server crap beyond normal rubberbanding and geometry errors...

 

it was nuts....and yeah Deyth went nuts, and decided that it just wasn't worth it to even play sb.exe....so they left...

 

some of us stayed on Treachery (as well as my meandering on Mourning, only hooked up with OPP a month or so before Treachery went down) and wandered into CoS cities when we could with siege hammers tapping on stuff until/unless we found something unprotected...

 

i was in the group that found all the fun stuff with the PRX city on big Ice...20 something structures "protected", and then the CSR turned the Tree protection "off"

 

good times indeed....and i'll give credit where it's due ...CoS knew their stuff and played the Game well....

 

but i had to speak up for Deyth, in the limited time i got to hang out, he was a decent guy and a solid Player

 

just sayin'...


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let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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We were allied to RoS and HH when they were fighting the rest of the server. I'm fairly certain RoS lost their city, and HH ultimately lost their Forbidden Island cities. Outnumbered by 2-3x though, at least. I remember that TSL, KoT, and SG brought about 6 groups to a bane against us, and that was without KGB and ML. KGB was always the largest. Their entire alliance could break 120 characters easily. At one point you're talking an alliance of every guild on the server except TSB, RoS, and HH, which was pretty ridiculous.

 

I never understood how KGB was never bothered by victories through such number disparities. They really were like a Chinese guild in that respect.

 

Before JDD returned to the server, TSB fought the entire server alliance with about 15 guys as if we were al-Qaeda. When JDD came back, we would do it with 2-3 groups. We all got together with Freedom's Stain and formed the "Chaotic Front," took all of ice island, finally started to break up the server alliance and everyone lost interest when plans for Vengeance were announced.

 

Val'Haven became some sort of neutral merchant city after CoS left. I'm guessing that TSL, ML, and KGB left it alone out of laziness or mutual respect, because they very well could have taken it. It's not like the old CoS sub-guild cities didn't go the way of the dodo. I wasn't at Val'Haven during that final day event, nor was the entire server. There were other cities being destroyed as well. We destroyed KoT's city just for fun on the last day. After the CF broke up, I remember Tempest and Grumph's ShadowGuard tried to fight TSL, ML, and KGB until the server ended. I don't think it went well for them.

 

I'm sure that CoS was very organized. Relative to its time, that was pretty advanced, perhaps even overkill. On Vengeance, that level of coordination between a nation's sub-guilds was very common. FWIW, when Vengeance first dropped, the alliance of Treachery guilds (TSB, TSL, ML, etc.) did crush the Scorn guilds (EB, CotA, Skyfang, etc) and this was without KGB (who I think initially went to Corruption). TSL and ML hated us so much that they allied with EB after the next set of migrations, though. Only reason I bring that up is to show that the Treach guilds were pretty damn competitive, even though I'll always consider the TSL/ML/KGB zerg alliance fellows to be o.O scrubs.

 

That's pretty crazy that Theta is playing with ODB now. I haven't talked to him in years. I think that Zoopz wanted me to play with ODB on RiF; that could have turned into an awkward Vent/TS moment.

Edited by managainsttime

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Scourge of the Shadowbane community, Public Enemy No. 1 to the SBEMU Forum Moderators, and member of the "Suppressed Person" faction on the Ubiforums. The man responsible for hooking up Ceska and CheckYoTrack. Also a 21-time World Heavyweight Champion of Shadowbane.

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VH was't destroyed because the KGB/ML zerg bought enough of HeRog's BS and deep down were afraid of rallying CoS back after so many quit (which is what kept the walls up at the server down event)

 

CoS didn't win because of PvP skill (though we had some outstanding PvPers) it was organization, motivated leadership, understanding of game mechanics (beta advantage), and we played more. A nation with 24/7 activity won early SB.


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"Agelmar is King of the Hypocrites and Ruler of the Kingdom of Hypocrytia"

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I never understood how KGB was never bothered by victories through such number disparities.

 

I can't speak for everyone in KGB but myself, but here is my answer. I wasn't bothered because I felt that it was our time. We stood up against CoS, without us there would be no anti-CoS coalition, and it was our time to shine. Unlike CoS, we didn't keep guilds that opposed us down and out of the game. If you compare days of KGB-ruled Treachery and CoS-ruled Treachery, we were way more laid back.

 

Still, I am long-term KGBer, so don't expect me to see my guild in any but very positive light.

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I disagree, but I ran the only guild that opposed KGB for the entirety of the post-CoS Treachery aftermath.

 

KGB wouldn't even fight a single guild that they outnumbered individually by a factor of 3 NvN. Even with only one small PK guild remaining on the server, KGB, TSL, and ML refused to dissolve their alliance. It required at least a month of bringing ex-Treachery players back to the server (JDD mainly) and politicking with an ex-Death guild (FS) before an opposing faction that could field 4 groups for a bane could even coalesce. Theta did a lot of the legwork there, and he wasn't exactly known for his political game.

 

The RoS and HH guys that I fought alongside with were pretty stand-up guys. Even though my guild was very small at the time and only made a relatively meager contribution to the Forbidden Island wars, I could somehow consistently get ex-HH/RoS guys to log in to help us for banes against the gonzo zerg, even when the banes were early in the morning.

 

KGB was great when it came to realpolitik. They survived on Vengeance by creating new alliances out of thin air and backstabbing former allies like KoA when it suited them, at least up until the time where their capital got sacked. KGB refused to attend the infamous EB capital bane, which allowed them to align with the EB-led alliance when it suited them later; this doesn't speak much to their "Honor," but political moves that seemed like calculated cowardice to one could be argued to be momentarily politically astute by another. Say what you will about CoS, they did dominate as a single nation and thus have a compelling argument that they could have performed well on a server that frowned on nutcupping and accordingly encouraged NvN conflict. KGB never fought NvN for as long as I knew them - and it's probably because they would have found and sometimes did find themselves embarrassed in NvN conflict by nations that could only field a fraction of their number. All that being said, guilds like KGB, TSL, and ML were great political opponents to have and I wouldn't trade my times battling them on Treachery and Vengeance for any other server experience. It would be truly awesome if I could once again participate in political machinations that were par for the course on the Treachery and Vengeance servers in another MMORPG.

Edited by managainsttime

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Scourge of the Shadowbane community, Public Enemy No. 1 to the SBEMU Forum Moderators, and member of the "Suppressed Person" faction on the Ubiforums. The man responsible for hooking up Ceska and CheckYoTrack. Also a 21-time World Heavyweight Champion of Shadowbane.

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Thanks for the writeups, I really enjoy reading them, especially those outside the PRX perspective. Of all the games I've played Shadowbane is the only one that can provide such detailed accounts of server-politics more than ten years later. I really hope that Crowfall joins SB on that pedestal.

 

We always had a lot of respect for the groups who persisted in fighting against us even through losses. A player who loses and signs up to the next fight deserves greater respect than someone who coasts on victories. When we play a new game we get a lot of new people who don't know what it means to perservere through continuous losing of impossible battles until the opponent breaks. When we finally meet real opposition and these greenhorns start to crack I tell them that if they're not willing to stand next to me while we're losing they don't deserve to stand with us while we win.

 

One aspect that was particularly frustrating for us is that the general story of Treachery was fairly common on other servers. One nation would dominate, all their enemies but the hard-nosed badasses would leave and the server would turn into a ghost town. We pleaded with Wolfpack to implement some form of cross-server PvP so the dominant nations could fight each other. We would've loved nothing more than to greet an invading force from Scorn or Death who joined the anti-CoS groups on Treachery. We would've also loved to reach out to those servers, find who the resistance players were, plan with them, invade their server and work with them to put the hurt on the monopolizing servers. This is the kind of cycle that we were able to enjoy in GW2 where every week we'd get a new campaign and fight fresh people. Crowfall seeks to combine this campaign with the kind of gameplay Shadowbane had, and that's what we're super pumped about.

 

What's interesting about reading about how Treachery went down is that as proud as we are of the hard work and organization put into our nation in the Shadowbane era a fight between the force we were then and the force we are now would be over quickly. The force we built for GW2 (The Titan Alliance) was hardened by 24/7 siege warfare. The organization that was required to compete against the best GW2 had to offer and earn 30 straight victories in release was on a different scale than what we had in Shadowbane. The same is true for the force we have now in Archeage that claimed our castle on Kyrios.

 

Crowfall is still a ways off, but we're all really excited to compete in it and think the campaign system will enable some epic and balanced fights.

Edited by Tuco

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With all due respect to PRX and thier admirable achivments in GW2 and Archage, I hope CF doesn't cross the line from enjoyment of game to full time job for most of us. SB early morning banes was not something I want to expieience again, even ones that were fun fights that we won. GW2 midnight fort capping was game-breaking for most brakets.

Edited by Sinij

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From their latest update it sounds like they won't let big sieges occur during off hours, but maybe they'll be coerced by their oceanic population to do so.

 

However, I think the campaign system will promote a much more hardcore lifestyle than most games because every new campaign will be like a new game release in terms of competition and dramatic increases in power. And from my experience, the more cyclical you make the game the sooner people will give up when they feel behind. Most of 72 first place wins we had in GW2 were won within the first three days when the enemy gave up. So I expect a lot of us will be taking days off work and not sleeping at the start of each campaign like it's a real game release.

 

I think to mitigate this from a game design perspective is make things time based, like the skill increases. In most MMOs you can progress as fast as you want, but if you made it such that to build the T1 blacksmith shop you don't just need 20 copper, 50 birch and 30 cobblestone, but also need 2 days of ingame 'build' time that can't be decreased. And until you get that T1 Blacksmith shop you can't make a good enough tools to mine T2 metals/lumber/stone. That way a casual group of people can work together and keep pace with groups like ours which will have a group of structured people following a campaign release plan. We may be able to tip the scales by denying access to resources, but at least won't be able to progress through the tech tree as fast as we can get resources.

 

I think Albion Online uses this kind of system. I remember when we tried the alpha getting all the buildings 'started' very fast and then having nothing to do for a while. This kind of limitation is good for the game.

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"Most of 72 first place wins we had in GW2 were won within the first three days when the enemy gave up"

I would say it was much shorter, more like first 24 hours. Then you had to wait for another week for new set of fun fights.

 

Now, this likely because GW2 had massive amount of randoms, and even in top tiers, organized guilds were not majority (numbers-wise).

 

Still, do you think there is away to address this? Second-place prizes?

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From their latest update it sounds like they won't let big sieges occur during off hours, but maybe they'll be coerced by their oceanic population to do so.

 

However, I think the campaign system will promote a much more hardcore lifestyle than most games because every new campaign will be like a new game release in terms of competition and dramatic increases in power. And from my experience, the more cyclical you make the game the sooner people will give up when they feel behind. Most of 72 first place wins we had in GW2 were won within the first three days when the enemy gave up. So I expect a lot of us will be taking days off work and not sleeping at the start of each campaign like it's a real game release.

 

I think to mitigate this from a game design perspective is make things time based, like the skill increases. In most MMOs you can progress as fast as you want, but if you made it such that to build the T1 blacksmith shop you don't just need 20 copper, 50 birch and 30 cobblestone, but also need 2 days of ingame 'build' time that can't be decreased. And until you get that T1 Blacksmith shop you can't make a good enough tools to mine T2 metals/lumber/stone. That way a casual group of people can work together and keep pace with groups like ours which will have a group of structured people following a campaign release plan. We may be able to tip the scales by denying access to resources, but at least won't be able to progress through the tech tree as fast as we can get resources.

 

I think Albion Online uses this kind of system. I remember when we tried the alpha getting all the buildings 'started' very fast and then having nothing to do for a while. This kind of limitation is good for the game.

I hope the game has designed mechanics to prevent guilds like yours with the "more people playing more hours" equates to wins.

 

At the very least I hope there are Campaigns that funnel that playstyle away from the Dregs.

 

I have a job already. I shouldn't have to play a game like one to "win."

 

This balance will likely be THE biggest challenge facing ACE and CF.


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"Agelmar is King of the Hypocrites and Ruler of the Kingdom of Hypocrytia"

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I would say it was much shorter, more like first 24 hours. Then you had to wait for another week for new set of fun fights.

 

Now, this likely because GW2 had massive amount of randoms, and even in top tiers, organized guilds were not majority (numbers-wise).

 

Still, do you think there is away to address this? Second-place prizes?

What ACE is doing is so novel and unprecedented that it's really hard to say how the community will work within the campaigns or how to tweak it to be ideal. So I think they should forge ahead, get a release out to a large alpha playerbase ASAP with only one campaign that has a week or two long duration, with sped up XP/crafting rewards ex and start to perform this grand experiment.

 

Personally the biggest challenge they have is to make the actual gameplay fun and engaging. It needs to be more fun than farming elves by Val'Haven all day, or farming on the icy island near Wainwright. Once they get that part nailed down, I think creating a reward system that compels people to play even when a clear winner emerges will be easy.

 

To answer your question directly, I'd say to scrap the entire export qualification based on who the winner is. Pick a winner, give them a trophy and some ingame congratulations and that's it. The person who stays fighting a losing battle, accrues wealth and successfully gets to the export area should be rewarded just as much as the person who rides the successful side, easily accrues wealth and walks unhindered to the export area.

 

When we're winning we never worry about being rewarded for it. When a group is winning, morale is high, people keep playing, new recruits join up, people are able to work on building their characters and we're able to iteratively improve our strategies and focus on the future. It's the folks that are losing battles that need a helping hand and need the motivation to log in and keep the game interesting. So let them export and give them the chance to build their Eternal Kingdom just the same as the winners can.

I hope the game has designed mechanics to prevent guilds like yours with the "more people playing more hours" equates to wins.

 

At the very least I hope there are Campaigns that funnel that playstyle away from the Dregs.

 

I have a job already. I shouldn't have to play a game like one to "win."

 

This balance will likely be THE biggest challenge facing ACE and CF.

I agree. At an individual level winning should be done on a nightly basis. A player should be able to get a group of people together, win some victories, accrue some wealth and feel satisfied that they've won that day. I think the Dregs is the place where this will be most possible.

 

At an organization level, I think you'll see a repeat of Shadowbane on campaigns in many respects. Organized groups with strike teams being advised by competent scouts (Like a certain Agelmar on Treachery!) will have a huge advantage.

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