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The Arrival Of Koster And Dealing With The Train He Brings With Him.


oridi
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I'll just put this right into OT and spare the effort needed to move it.

I think it's important to bear in mind that not everyone that is showing up on these boards is from Shadowbane or a heavy PvP environment.

Some other kinds of folks are being drawn in now that Koster in on board.  He's known for SWG and the Theory of Fun gaming book.  PvP is not the first thing you think of when Koster comes to mind, and as such there's an influx of people who are 1. learning when they get here that it's a PvP centric game 2. trying to find a way to stick it out in spite of that.

Today I hopped on a few threads and was dismayed at the ratio of yah woot we're gonna kill everyone and torch them and go back to wow if you can't handle it comments to actual discussion.  Even more unnerving was that there's no real balance to that opinion as from mods to members it's the same approach and the same comment style.

Koster brings a huge following with him.  They're not going to stick if there's no representation of them on the boards and there's no room for them to speak their mind and find a way to make this community their home.  I'm not talking about lessening the PvP aspect of the game - I'm talking about reducing the negative stereotype of a PvP player on these boards.

Like everyone here I want this game to succeed.  I'm pretty stubborn and have a fairly tough skin but I'm not your usual snackcake.  I think it's worthwhile welcoming the Kosterites and making sure they have enough info and explanations to outweigh the noob go homeness that they're getting now.

I'm not sure if that means combing the boards and messaging them, making a new section that will allow them to discuss things like PVE options that go well with PvP or character stats or any of the myriad things that are not PvP related.  What do you think would work best? Any ideas? 

 

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The Chronicles of Crowfall           The Free Lands of Azure            RIP Doc Gonzo.

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I'll just put this right into OT and spare the effort needed to move it.

i feel your Pain...

 

I think it's important to bear in mind that not everyone that is showing up on these boards is from Shadowbane or a heavy PvP environment.

of course...

 

Today I hopped on a few threads and was dismayed at the ratio of yah woot we're gonna kill everyone and torch them and go back to wow if you can't handle it comments to actual discussion.  Even more unnerving was that there's no real balance to that opinion as from mods to members it's the same approach and the same comment style.

yeah, welcome to Hazing...it's not pretty, but it is the first line of PvP, so to speak..among some Communities....asking for more heavy handed Moderation is double plus ungood, and can cause more harm over the long haul than not holding kiddies hands while they cross the street...they've been told to look both ways...i mean, it is the interwebz, at this point no one expects a PC bubble, do they?

 

Koster brings a huge following with him.  They're not going to stick if there's no representation of them on the boards and there's no room for them to speak their mind and find a way to make this community their home.  I'm not talking about lessening the PvP aspect of the game - I'm talking about reducing the negative stereotype of a PvP player on these boards.

fornicate your stereotypes...you denigrate these new Players as well as the PvPers...

follow me here, i don't think there's anyone that doesn't want new folks, more folks...from all kinds of backgrounds, to come out and Play, when differing Cultures rub shoulders there's bound to be abrasions as well as hugs...it gets worked out and it's all part of the process

as for "no representation" ummm...what?

if folks want "representation" then type away....your "no room" is fallacious, one can always start their own Topic, yes?

 

Like everyone here I want this game to succeed.  I'm pretty stubborn and have a fairly tough skin but I'm not your usual snackcake.  I think it's worthwhile welcoming the Kosterites and making sure they have enough info and explanations to outweigh the noob go homeness that they're getting now.

again...you don't seem to understand...this IS *our* welcome to the new folks...and all the "Info" is in the News section, first post of every Topic...nothing stops anyone from Reading...and anyone can skip a Post they don't like...yes?

let adults make their own decisions, ffs....i truly do appreciate the graciousness of your Intent here..don't get me wrong...i just don't think anyone likes being coddled

 

I'm not sure if that means combing the boards and messaging them, making a new section that will allow them to discuss things like PVE options that go well with PvP or character stats or any of the myriad things that are not PvP related.  What do you think would work best? Any ideas? 

mine consists of letting folks make up their own Minds...

 

 

 

 

silly of me, i guess...

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let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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I understand your point of view but I don't agree with it.

Mainly because there's the repeat pattern happening of "hey whoa - ffa is not going to work for me" followed by the "well then you're out of luck because this is a PvP game and it's for us PvP players and you need to leave if you don't like it" responses (that's the PC version).  Then there's a few back and forths and then the hey whoa person drops off the boards. 

If they get over to the guild section and fall into one of the non-PvP guild threads then they sometimes stay but you don't really see them out on the boards that much anymore.

So while I see your point from a idea point of view I don't think it's a reality.  You want adults to monitor themselves but at this point the "welcome" is so unwelcoming that it's driving folks away.

Which may be great in one sense because only like minded people (or goofballs like me) will stick around.  But in a larger sense it's not a very logical move given that you're wasting some great Koster momentum.

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The Chronicles of Crowfall           The Free Lands of Azure            RIP Doc Gonzo.

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It seems that the developers have a clear goal in mind with Crowfall and have had no problem at all saying that the game will not be for everyone, but that the game would be "different". We don't really know what any of that means yet - a lot of us have speculated and are continuing to do so, but we don't actually know. Hopefully in about 30 days we'll all have a good idea of what we're getting into, but anyone who abandons the project at the moment before they see the actual reveal is missing out, in my opinion. 

 

That all said, I'm of the opinion that free-for-all is one of the core aspects of the game that is here to stay as it has been hinted at three or more times already. Any addition that limits free for all would negatively impact those of us who are in favor of it so I'm sure that is why the response has been so vehement. I'm not saying I agree with how its being handled, but I understand and see where they are coming from. At the end of the day its a public forum and the majority of the established community here is in support of a full free-for-all game so I don't see these responses being curtailed, but I think we could all do a little better towards being more welcoming and approachable. 

Winter is coming. 

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Most likely it's going be a PvP restricted game or will become at some point. There is no other way, PvE games are commercially successfull Pvp games are not.

Edited by rajah
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Most likely it's going be a PvP restricted game or will become at some point. There is no other way, PvE games are commercially successfull Pvp games are not.

 

Not necessarily true. Look at DayZ or H1Z1 - the popularity of those games shows that there is a demand for a survival game out there. Does that popularity extend into the MMO scene? We don't know, but I for one would love to play it. 

Winter is coming. 

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I understand your point of view but I don't agree with it.

 

Mainly because there's the repeat pattern happening of "hey whoa - ffa is not going to work for me" followed by the "well then you're out of luck because this is a PvP game and it's for us PvP players and you need to leave if you don't like it" responses (that's the PC version).  Then there's a few back and forths and then the hey whoa person drops off the boards. 

 

If they get over to the guild section and fall into one of the non-PvP guild threads then they sometimes stay but you don't really see them out on the boards that much anymore.

 

So while I see your point from a idea point of view I don't think it's a reality.  You want adults to monitor themselves but at this point the "welcome" is so unwelcoming that it's driving folks away.

 

Which may be great in one sense because only like minded people (or goofballs like me) will stick around.  But in a larger sense it's not a very logical move given that you're wasting some great Koster momentum.

You can't help it, players should understand themselves to step out of their comfort zone and play the game despite of it having FFA PvP. The best we can do is attempt to convince developers to make the world immersing as possible and provide other activities aside from FFA PvP (if this is not their goal already). And welcome the players who do step out of their comfort zone to try the game out (there are multiple here on the forums already). But the last thing this board requires are the PvE players who question the basic legitimacy of PvP and a such group to become a vocal majority.

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I'm reserving my opinion until we get a better picture in 30? something days time.

 

Yes I agree that some ffa PvP followers can be abrasive. The majority of ffa PvP are ardent gamers who have mostly known each other for years, as associates if not enemies. For this reason I admire them. Some have a reasonable history with each other in a capacity. It's rare to see.

 

However, the ACE team have not only promised strong PvP influences with strong crafting ideas, but there is some surprises to come yet I feel.

I think the OP is correct about the inclusion of Koster. His approach has been brought in for a reason.

 

My personal feelings is that I want the game to be more engaging than the usual run of the mill PvP. Sure PvP can be fun ... but heck I've burnt out on PvP years ago. I'm just hoping they are going to put some fun back into entertainment via online games.

 

Let's wait and see how the dev's account before making up our minds. Once they do, most of the speculation will be cleared, the dust will settle and then we will be able to engage in more meaningful discussion.

 

Until then, just strap yourself in and engage the community. There is no point in arguing who is right and who is wrong at the moment.

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Let's just be clear, I don't think "hazing" is appropriate.  The very definition of the word should clue anyone in to that.  I don't think bullying ('gentle' prodding or not) is conducive to building the community, and even though someone like me is wiling to tolerate and push back, a lot of grown adults with their pocketbooks are going to see the juvenile behavior and decide this game is not for them before it has a chance to show itself.

 

It is in the best interests of ffa PvP enthusiasts NOT to cow or push away potential new converts to the play style.  If you want a healthy, vibrant game that is open PvP, you need new blood that will also get into it.  Many, many, many people will be coming here with MMO experiences akin to WoW, SWG and others, and have a pre-conceived idea about how open PvP would affect them based on how so many other games are structured.

 

It's fine to hold your ground in wanting something, but when so many people are going to see the "drink the tears" and "go back to WoW nub" childish behavior and never give this forum or the game a chance.

 

That being said, the sooner the devs reveal the game playstyle (whatever form of PvP it takes), and I would even hope they'd go so far as to provide us with an essay/position paper that details how it's different and why it would work... the better.

 

Nothing is pinned on this yet.  Until then, the PvP players really need to realize that a person who does not come from a PvP game background will read the front page (and even the play2crush page), and imagine that the game represents their idea of that untapped MMO community.  An idea that has little to do with PvP and everything to do with sandbox/crafting/choice.

 

If you want the PvP game of your dreams, it's in your best interests to woo new people over to your way of thinking, not insult, dismiss and chase them off the forums.

 

 

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At the end of the day its a public forum and the majority of the established community here is in support of a full free-for-all game so I don't see these responses being curtailed, but I think we could all do a little better towards being more welcoming and approachable. 

 

 

 

If you want the PvP game of your dreams, it's in your best interests to woo new people over to your way of thinking, not insult, dismiss and chase them off the forums.

 

What I wanted to say but better. There is no reason not to be nice to one another. 

Winter is coming. 

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Its already pretty much confirmed that this is going be a PvP oriented game. You gotta get with the program or die.

Edited by checkyotrack

You are so incredibly helpful, CYT. I don't know how I ever managed to do anything before we met. I was just bumbling my way through life, all lost-like. Thank you. My blessing cup runneth over.

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Its already pretty much confirmed thianis going be a PvP oriented game. You gotta get with the program or die.

 

Pretty much isn't a pinned topic and entry from one of the devs.  I strongly believe they need to have one, because new players will show up and the same arguments will take place over and over again.

 

 

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"no reason not to be nice..."

 

"should welcome these new people"....

 

on and on...

 

here's the thing...some of us are not nice, why shoudl we change as long as we are wihtin the boundaries ofModeration?

 

and now...gawd i hate explaining...the big thing to realize....

 

those of us from the UO/SB school have seen this time and time and time again....a Game with great potential gets totally ruined by being shouted down from the carebear and casual types who want sparkly unicorn mounts and flagged PvP and to not have to group up or deal with PvP if they don't feel like it, or NPC guards to protect them...or artificial duels and so on...

 

each of those examples and more are already on these Forums!

 

so some fight against it right out of the gate...letting thier opinions be known in no uncertain terms, and in this case....having plenty of back up from others in the Community...

 

as i've stated previously....the PvP starts *HERE* and now....the fight over the very Soul of the Game

 

2 things to remember.... trying to appeal from Authority, or due to what YOU think the "masses" want....or telling us what the DEvs want (they can tell us themselves, eh?) ...is NEVER going to work, in fact...it will make the opposition louder, cruder and moar relentless as Griefing comes to the Forums

 

the second is...there are DEvs and Mods for this exact purpose...they are NOT shy about telling the Community what's up, and passing out Warning points to let their displeasure be known...

 

so while i really DO appreciate the Thought and Intent here...

 

fold it up until it all corners and shove it right up your fluffy bunny until cupcakes with sprinkes fly out of your neon carebear

 

i hope that helps...

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let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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Have any of you guys ever seen any of us SB/UO types on the forums of Wizard 101, Pirates 101, or any of the other theme park games, railing about how stupid we think it is and how there should be FFA PVP?  Have we ever once got on any of those forums and constatnly pestered the Dev's, Mod's and other players because the game is not what we enjoy?  The resounding answer is NO.  I for one do not discount the legitimacy of those other games.  I actively play WoW at the moment, because there is literally nothing to play and my wife enjoys it.  But do I truely enjoy it?  No way!  But, I don't hop on there forums everyday and expound on how I think their entire set up of game mechanics is wrong and must be changed to suit my gaming style?  This game has been advertised as a Sandbox PVP game, with heavy crafting and guild content.  This is what it is!  The writing is on the walls.  Why come here and try to change things with suggestions and such, when you already have tons of those types of games?  Maybe the Non-PVP types should sit back and think that, although usually more graceful in their speech, they are the antagonists here?  Have you thought that maybe the only reason the SB/UO crowd is so mean to you is because you are virtually taking a crap on their dreams?  If you guys are as friendly and nice as you would like the public to believe then why not stick to discussing the amazing announcements that have been put out and stop turning everything into a PVE vs PVP fight?  Myself, as a moderator, am tired of hearing it. Maybe you should try to get along with us PVP types, since you are posting on the forums of an obviously revolutionary PVP game, and stop instigating responses with your anti PVP rhetoric?  I'm sure you would get a much better response from the PVP crowd.

 

And yes, Im a moderator, and I am on these boards for litteral HOURS a day, reading every post, for free.  We dedicate a large portion of our day to this project because we believe in it so strongly and ask NOTHING in return.  We are entitled to our opinion!  We follow the Rules of Conduct, and the announcements that have come.  Nothing more.  So stop bashing the Mods for being pro-PVP.  It's the reason I came here, and the reason I dedicate so much of my free time to it!

Edited by cmurder
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One of the reasons Darkfall failed was that the community assaulted the carebears. That isn't to say we should start doing hellos and welcoming people to the community, but we shouldn't outright attack them on the boards though. Just a thought.

Cannibal Man - Future serial killer

I can't even.  You win, I am done with this part of the discussion.

 

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One of the reasons Darkfall failed was that the community assaulted the carebears. That isn't to say we should start doing hellos and welcoming people to the community, but we shouldn't outright attack them on the boards though. Just a thought.

 

Quid pro quo!  The PVE croud also needs to stop attacking the PVP crowd by trying to convince the Dev's to make this game something it isn't.

Edited by cmurder
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Have any of you guys ever seen any of us SB/UO types on the forums of Wizard 101, Pirates 101, or any of the other theme park games, railing about how stupid we think it is and how there should be FFA PVP?  Have we ever once got on any of those forums and constatnly pestered the Dev's, Mod's and other players because the game is not what we enjoy?  The resounding answer is NO.  I for one do not discount the legitimacy of those other games.  I actively play WoW at the moment, because there is literally nothing to play and my wife enjoys it.  But do I truely enjoy it?  No way!  But, I don't hop on there forums everyday and expound on how I think their entire set up of game mechanics is wrong and must be changed to suit my gaming style?  This game has been advertised as a Sandbox PVP game, with heavy crafting and guild content.  This is what it is!  The writing is on the walls.  Why come here and try to change things with suggestions and such, when you already have tons of those types of games?  Maybe the Non-PVP types should sit back and think that, although usually more graceful in their speech, they are the antagonists here?  Have you thought that maybe the only reason the SB/UO crowd is so mean to you is because you are virtually taking a crap on their dreams?  If you guys are as friendly and nice as you would like the public to believe then why not stick to discussing the amazing announcements that have been put out and stop turning everything into a PVE vs PVP fight?  Myself, as a moderator, am tired of hearing it. Maybe you should try to get along with us PVP types, since you are posting on the forums of an obviously revolutionary PVP game, and stop instigating responses with your anti PVP rhetoric?  I'm sure you would get a much better response from the PVP crowd.

 

And yes, Im a moderator, and I am on these boards for litteral HOURS a day, reading every post, for free.  We dedicate a large portion of our day to this project because we believe in it so strongly and ask NOTHING in return.  We are entitled to our opinion!  We follow the Rules of Conduct, and the announcements that have come.  Nothing more.  So stop bashing the Mods for being pro-PVP.  It's the reason I came here, and the reason I dedicate so much of my free time to it!

 

Who is bashing the mods?

 

I'm not talking about letting this turn into another PvE-option game.  I'm talking about the approach, and I'm talking about there needing to be a CLEAR statement that the game is PvP, NOT from forum-goers, and not from the mods who are also still officially in the dark on what the game will be.

 

The writing is NOT on the walls, not where it counts, from the DEVS.  It's just people shouting what they want.

 

It needs to be on the welcome page.  It needs to be a pinned announcement.  Until such time as it is spelled out by the people actually MAKING this game, new people are going to show up and have a misunderstanding about what this game is.

 

I'm arguing for clarity, not for a change in the game structure.  If the conditions are more clear up front, we're better off.

 

If you really think the argument I'm making here is that it shouldn't be an open PvP game, then you are either not reading it, or not comprehending it.  Take a moment, breathe, and don't excuse the bad behavior as justified due to some personal belief that you are being victimized.

 

Please?  Thank you.

 

 

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The OP put up a calm, thoughtful, constructive post.  Is it coming from a flawed premise?  We can't even know for sure because we don't even have an official declaration/statement.  Also, you're a moderator, try using some ****ing diplomacy.

 

Basically, what I am saying is.  I agree that tact should be used.  But, why should anyone give special treatment to other people just because their views may be different?  I am for EQUAL respect from both sides.  I just don't understand how more direct the Devs need to be?  Is it just wishful thinking or delusion that makes people not see the words, Heavy PVP aspect?   I will digress until the official announcement is made. 

 

Also my comment was not directed towards the OP.  As you see I did not quote him.  It was to some of the posters that were responding.

Edited by cmurder
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