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The Arrival Of Koster And Dealing With The Train He Brings With Him.

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Seventh... as has been pointed out...the News and announcement sections HAS direct communication from the Devs on all of these Topics...it's right there for all to read.....and while much is ambiguous, many of the baseline Design choices are quite clear .... yes?

 

so asking for "PvE first" is diametrically opposed to the stated DEsign goals, is it not?

 

why shouldn't we put up our very strong Opinions in such a Thread, and those like it?

 

and then there's this Quote - "One of the reasons Darkfall failed was that the community assaulted the carebears."

 

ummm...no....poor implementation and rampant third part hax programs killed it for many who wanted fair competition...for others it was shoddy mechanics...no skill level cap so you could macroup EVERYTHING with no consequences or having to choose between options

 

so yeah...macro levelling and hax were the major culprits....not forum posts chasing people off, ffs...


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let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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I'll just put this right into OT and spare the effort needed to move it.

 

I think it's important to bear in mind that not everyone that is showing up on these boards is from Shadowbane or a heavy PvP environment.

 

Some other kinds of folks are being drawn in now that Koster in on board.  He's known for SWG and the Theory of Fun gaming book.  PvP is not the first thing you think of when Koster comes to mind, and as such there's an influx of people who are 1. learning when they get here that it's a PvP centric game 2. trying to find a way to stick it out in spite of that.

 

Today I hopped on a few threads and was dismayed at the ratio of yah woot we're gonna kill everyone and torch them and go back to wow if you can't handle it comments to actual discussion.  Even more unnerving was that there's no real balance to that opinion as from mods to members it's the same approach and the same comment style.

 

Koster brings a huge following with him.  They're not going to stick if there's no representation of them on the boards and there's no room for them to speak their mind and find a way to make this community their home.  I'm not talking about lessening the PvP aspect of the game - I'm talking about reducing the negative stereotype of a PvP player on these boards.

 

Like everyone here I want this game to succeed.  I'm pretty stubborn and have a fairly tough skin but I'm not your usual snackcake.  I think it's worthwhile welcoming the Kosterites and making sure they have enough info and explanations to outweigh the noob go homeness that they're getting now.

 

I'm not sure if that means combing the boards and messaging them, making a new section that will allow them to discuss things like PVE options that go well with PvP or character stats or any of the myriad things that are not PvP related.  What do you think would work best? Any ideas? 

 

 

Please tell me where PvE first is the argument being made here?

Edited by seventhbeacon

"Darken the moon and conceal the stars; our Light will never be extinguished." - The Tome of the First Flame

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The Lantern Watch - A Crowfall-first guild. Welcome Home. Join us @ http://crowfall.shivtr.com

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Please tell me where PvE first is the argument being made here?

 

it's not..admittedly...

 

now tell me you have not read that exact Thread, or the myriad other ones like it?

 

yoru Honor...the Persecution rests....


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let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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it's not..admittedly...

 

now tell me you have not read that exact Thread, or the myriad other ones like it?

 

yoru Honor...the Persecution rests....

 

 

Do you really think every new person on these boards is going to read through every single thread, page after page, or that they even know the answer is out there?  And is it really the fault of a person if on the pinned topics, they don't see anything that says "This is an Open/FFA PvP game."?  Why is it their fault if it's not clear?  They don't have a magic 8 ball with all the answers.


"Darken the moon and conceal the stars; our Light will never be extinguished." - The Tome of the First Flame

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The Lantern Watch - A Crowfall-first guild. Welcome Home. Join us @ http://crowfall.shivtr.com

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Have any of you guys ever seen any of us SB/UO types on the forums of Wizard 101, Pirates 101, or any of the other theme park games, railing about how stupid we think it is and how there should be FFA PVP?  Have we ever once got on any of those forums and constatnly pestered the Dev's, Mod's and other players because the game is not what we enjoy?  The resounding answer is NO.  I for one do not discount the legitimacy of those other games.  I actively play WoW at the moment, because there is literally nothing to play and my wife enjoys it.  But do I truely enjoy it?  No way!  But, I don't hop on there forums everyday and expound on how I think their entire set up of game mechanics is wrong and must be changed to suit my gaming style?  This game has been advertised as a Sandbox PVP game, with heavy crafting and guild content.  This is what it is!  The writing is on the walls.  Why come here and try to change things with suggestions and such, when you already have tons of those types of games?  Maybe the Non-PVP types should sit back and think that, although usually more graceful in their speech, they are the antagonists here?  Have you thought that maybe the only reason the SB/UO crowd is so mean to you is because you are virtually taking a crap on their dreams?  If you guys are as friendly and nice as you would like the public to believe then why not stick to discussing the amazing announcements that have been put out and stop turning everything into a PVE vs PVP fight?  Myself, as a moderator, am tired of hearing it. Maybe you should try to get along with us PVP types, since you are posting on the forums of an obviously revolutionary PVP game, and stop instigating responses with your anti PVP rhetoric?  I'm sure you would get a much better response from the PVP crowd.

 

And yes, Im a moderator, and I am on these boards for litteral HOURS a day, reading every post, for free.  We dedicate a large portion of our day to this project because we believe in it so strongly and ask NOTHING in return.  We are entitled to our opinion!  We follow the Rules of Conduct, and the announcements that have come.  Nothing more.  So stop bashing the Mods for being pro-PVP.  It's the reason I came here, and the reason I dedicate so much of my free time to it!

 

I agree with this statement the PVE crowd is always trying to bend or twist discussions in their favor, like some kind of hidden agenda to promote a game design style not embraced by the community or not entirely the premise behind the game concept in the first place.  The pvp gaming crowd is a thirsty brood, and the excitement a game like this generates fuels expectations for the type of triple A pvp gaming tile we've hoped for.  Do you really believe Mr Kostner wasn't fully prepared for what kinds of comments he'd see from a community based on a game like this?  He was a founding father to the oldest version of pvp, UO.  So I am sure he knows full well what kinds of commentary he'll recieve, you don't jump into a lions den without arming yourself with a spear first.  No one needs to hold anyones hand here, least of all a Devs.


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Have any of you guys ever seen any of us SB/UO types on the forums of Wizard 101, Pirates 101, or any of the other theme park games, railing about how stupid we think it is and how there should be FFA PVP?  Have we ever once got on any of those forums and constatnly pestered the Dev's, Mod's and other players because the game is not what we enjoy?  The resounding answer is NO.  I for one do not discount the legitimacy of those other games.  I actively play WoW at the moment, because there is literally nothing to play and my wife enjoys it.  But do I truely enjoy it?  No way!  But, I don't hop on there forums everyday and expound on how I think their entire set up of game mechanics is wrong and must be changed to suit my gaming style?  This game has been advertised as a Sandbox PVP game, with heavy crafting and guild content.  This is what it is!  The writing is on the walls.  Why come here and try to change things with suggestions and such, when you already have tons of those types of games?  Maybe the Non-PVP types should sit back and think that, although usually more graceful in their speech, they are the antagonists here?  Have you thought that maybe the only reason the SB/UO crowd is so mean to you is because you are virtually taking a crap on their dreams?  If you guys are as friendly and nice as you would like the public to believe then why not stick to discussing the amazing announcements that have been put out and stop turning everything into a PVE vs PVP fight?  Myself, as a moderator, am tired of hearing it. Maybe you should try to get along with us PVP types, since you are posting on the forums of an obviously revolutionary PVP game, and stop instigating responses with your anti PVP rhetoric?  I'm sure you would get a much better response from the PVP crowd.

 

And yes, Im a moderator, and I am on these boards for litteral HOURS a day, reading every post, for free.  We dedicate a large portion of our day to this project because we believe in it so strongly and ask NOTHING in return.  We are entitled to our opinion!  We follow the Rules of Conduct, and the announcements that have come.  Nothing more.  So stop bashing the Mods for being pro-PVP.  It's the reason I came here, and the reason I dedicate so much of my free time to it!

Can I have your virtual babies?

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Do you really think every new person on these boards is going to read through every single thread, page after page, or that they even know the answer is out there?  And is it really the fault of a person if on the pinned topics, they don't see anything that says "This is an Open/FFA PvP game."?  Why is it their fault if it's not clear?  They don't have a magic 8 ball with all the answers.

 

ummmm are the Titles in the News and Announcement section not clear?

 

does it not show clearly that those Threads are from the Devs?

 

sorry, to me...this falls into the coddling and hand holding category...

 

if people cannot be bothered to check the Obvious, can you honestly expect them to not get kicked around a bit and pointed towards the Info...especially when they go so far off base and then start asking for things...

 

or even better yet....the Example in this Thread....where some Poster goes ahead and, from a "voice of authority" fallacy  starts telling the Devs what they should or should not do for their Game

 

as if the Devs were not experienced pros...but the Poster has all the Answers...

 

imo, that's just plain hubris, and terribly insulting....as was the OP to both new folks finding this Forum (by belittling their ability to read and figure things out) as well as the PvP crowd (for telling them what to do) much less trying to tell the Devs that they don't know their own business

 

to Quote St. Lemmy - "you dare to tell me what to do, you've got a lot of nerve....wath yer mouth or you might get.....the dentist you deserve..."

http://youtu.be/_wrUjkCNHFE

 

 


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Pretty sure I said one of the reasons.So long as carebears are around to kill, the pvpers will be there.


Cannibal Man - Future serial killer

I can't even.  You win, I am done with this part of the discussion.

 

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Do you really think every new person on these boards is going to read through every single thread, page after page, or that they even know the answer is out there?  And is it really the fault of a person if on the pinned topics, they don't see anything that says "This is an Open/FFA PvP game."?  Why is it their fault if it's not clear?  They don't have a magic 8 ball with all the answers.

 

The problem starts  when the "new players" turn into the same thing we have been seeing with the current player base.  Most of the hard core PVE crowd is ranting just as much as the PVP crowd, but their language is "nicer" so they are overlooked.  I just want people to start talking about the facts that have been stated by the Devs and speculate on those facts, not get angry and run to the boards to post anti-PVP  threads that bash what is being announced.  It may be passive aggressive, but its still trolling.  I have seen multiple times that posters will taunt the PVP crowd with PVE posts, and then report the PVP guy as soon as he posts a reply.  Can't we all just get along and stick to the facts as they are released to us?

Edited by cmurder

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All I'm saying, if you'd like to focus on productive discussions about the game, is make it clear.  The welcome letter, the front page, the announcements page, none of these has that statement.  People aren't mind readers, and like the OP said, they're hearing about this game coming from a different play experience and background.  There's no sign that says "Welcome to the Lion's Den of our PvP-centric game."  I sure as heck have no history or knowledge about Shadowbane, not counting what I've learned from reading this forum.  The PvP enthusiasts should not HAVE to shout down this other demand.  It should be nipped in the bud before it even starts.

 

 

I checked the custard obvious, Doc!  I checked it!  Siege warfare mechanics =/= Full PvP.  There IS no straightforward, explicit statement, and there really needs to be.  It should be something that has to be deduced by reading tons of comments.  It should be in an initial post, right up top, right in front.  That's not hand-holding.  That's communication.


"Darken the moon and conceal the stars; our Light will never be extinguished." - The Tome of the First Flame

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The Lantern Watch - A Crowfall-first guild. Welcome Home. Join us @ http://crowfall.shivtr.com

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Seventh...i hear you on the frustration...

 

but this is how the Devs want to release their Info...

 

ambiguous, dribs and drabs...

 

they are trolling their own Playerbase, ffs.... and most of us don't mind it, because we come fomr the same place...yeah it's frustrating, but we get it and try to read between the lines and do more deduction than speculation...

 

i feel what yer typing...but allow me to say quite clearly...i trust the Dev's judgement and motives far more than ANY forum Poster when it comes to THEIR Game

 

could just be me...


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let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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By all means, if I'm overlooking the statements you claim exist, point me to them.

 

The only statement I see is "this game is not for everyone", but it fails to mention who it's for.  Please, go on, show me.  Literally the closest thing I saw was in a comment that said something to the effect of "If you're someone that likes to do EVERYTHING in a game, you won't be able to unless you PvP."  It didn't say PvP was everything, it said those who want to experience the full game will not be able to do so if they don't participate in PvP.


"Darken the moon and conceal the stars; our Light will never be extinguished." - The Tome of the First Flame

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The Lantern Watch - A Crowfall-first guild. Welcome Home. Join us @ http://crowfall.shivtr.com

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All I'm saying, if you'd like to focus on productive discussions about the game, is make it clear.  The welcome letter, the front page, the announcements page, none of these has that statement.  People aren't mind readers, and like the OP said, they're hearing about this game coming from a different play experience and background.  There's no sign that says "Welcome to the Lion's Den of our PvP-centric game."  I sure as heck have no history or knowledge about Shadowbane, not counting what I've learned from reading this forum.  The PvP enthusiasts should not HAVE to shout down this other demand.  It should be nipped in the bud before it even starts.

 

 

I checked the ****ing obvious, Doc!  I checked it!  Siege warfare mechanics =/= Full PvP.  There IS no straightforward, explicit statement, and there really needs to be.  It should be something that has to be deduced by reading tons of comments.  It should be in an initial post, right up top, right in front.  That's not hand-holding.  That's communication.

 

This makes a lot of sense Seventh.  Not coming from Shadowbane, you dont see the countless easter eggs that are hidden in the terminology used on the splash pages.  They are direct quotes from Shadowbane!  Play to Crush was the Shadowbane motto for gods sake.  So, no I can completely understand being confused. This article may help a bit.

 

Eurogamer: Interest Gathers Around New Shadowbane-like MMO Crowfall


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Seventh...i hear you on the frustration...

 

but this is how the Devs want to release their Info...

 

ambiguous, dribs and drabs...

 

they are trolling their own Playerbase, ffs.... and most of us don't mind it, because we come fomr the same place...yeah it's frustrating, but we get it and try to read between the lines and do more deduction than speculation...

 

i feel what yer typing...but allow me to say quite clearly...i trust the Dev's judgement and motives far more than ANY forum Poster when it comes to THEIR Game

 

could just be me...

 

 

I appreciate that, I really do.  And I'm also not against moderators having their opinion because that's totally fair.

 

I don't think all of the PvE guys are trolling.  It's someone speaking up with their perspective because there's no official information telling them otherwise.  Complaining and whining about people bringing it up, then becomes pretty pointless, because no one official is telling them they're wrong, only other players who are just as much in the dark about it.

 

 

Edit: I removed some stuff from this because it was close to inappropriate and wasn't furthering the conversation.  My apologies.

Edited by seventhbeacon

"Darken the moon and conceal the stars; our Light will never be extinguished." - The Tome of the First Flame

LW_sig_concept_7b_lighter_zpsu0zpsinn.jp


The Lantern Watch - A Crowfall-first guild. Welcome Home. Join us @ http://crowfall.shivtr.com

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Do you really think every new person on these boards is going to read through every single thread, page after page, or that they even know the answer is out there?  And is it really the fault of a person if on the pinned topics, they don't see anything that says "This is an Open/FFA PvP game."?  Why is it their fault if it's not clear?  They don't have a magic 8 ball with all the answers.

As far as this argument goes, The Call of Banners, the Hierarchy Tree, The references to Shadowbane by Devs, and finally the Cryptic Tree update, all point to a PvP centric game.  Some of the finer points of the manner in which that pvp takes place might be in question but the Cryptic Tree update shows a stylized Tree of Life reference from shadowbane, and clearly shows Clans occupying the various shields on that screen shot you can't get much more obvious then that.


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Sorry Seventh...as i said, i can't give you exactly what you want...all i can say is that after reading all the Dev announcements and as many of the Thread responses from them i can find...it's pretty obvious...

 

the fact that they have left it a bit esoteric and ambiguous appears to me as just trolling, and hoping some of the carebear types stick with it and find out more...

 

in the last few weeks we have seen plenty of those, yourself included....who read what's there...got into conversations and decided to at least find out more

 

now, here's something to chew on....perhaps Players wiht that kind of persistence are what the Devs want for this self proclaimed "niche" Game?

 

thanks for conversing sanely...i truly hope it helps...


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let the Code build the World and it's Laws....let the Players build the rest...

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This makes a lot of sense Seventh.  Not coming from Shadowbane, you dont see the countless easter eggs that are hidden in the terminology used on the splash pages.  They are direct quotes from Shadowbane!  Play to Crush was the Shadowbane motto for gods sake.  So, no I can completely understand being confused. This article may help a bit.

 

Eurogamer: Interest Gathers Around New Shadowbane-like MMO Crowfall

 

Thank you for the article link, reading now.

 

And yeah, I know patience wears thin, and I know there are some PvE players who keep posting new topics saying the same thing they said before in the same topics.  I get why those could and should be deleted topics, and that someone repeating the same behavior after being asked to stop would logically face warnings/bannings.

 

But for the sake of newcomers, it would be nice if their innocent lack of knowledge is not met with hazing.


"Darken the moon and conceal the stars; our Light will never be extinguished." - The Tome of the First Flame

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The Lantern Watch - A Crowfall-first guild. Welcome Home. Join us @ http://crowfall.shivtr.com

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As far as this argument goes, The Call of Banners, the Hierarchy Tree, The references to Shadowbane by Devs, and finally the Cryptic Tree update, all point to a PvP centric game.  Some of the finer points of the manner in which that pvp takes place might be in question but the Cryptic Tree update shows a stylized Tree of Life reference from shadowbane, and clearly shows Clans occupying the various shields on that screen shot you can't get much more obvious then that.

 

It's not obvious to people who don't know that.  Those are only clues to the already-initiated.


"Darken the moon and conceal the stars; our Light will never be extinguished." - The Tome of the First Flame

LW_sig_concept_7b_lighter_zpsu0zpsinn.jp


The Lantern Watch - A Crowfall-first guild. Welcome Home. Join us @ http://crowfall.shivtr.com

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I'll just put this right into OT and spare the effort needed to move it.

 

I think it's important to bear in mind that not everyone that is showing up on these boards is from Shadowbane or a heavy PvP environment.

 

Some other kinds of folks are being drawn in now that Koster in on board.  He's known for SWG and the Theory of Fun gaming book.  PvP is not the first thing you think of when Koster comes to mind, and as such there's an influx of people who are 1. learning when they get here that it's a PvP centric game 2. trying to find a way to stick it out in spite of that.

 

Today I hopped on a few threads and was dismayed at the ratio of yah woot we're gonna kill everyone and torch them and go back to wow if you can't handle it comments to actual discussion.  Even more unnerving was that there's no real balance to that opinion as from mods to members it's the same approach and the same comment style.

 

Koster brings a huge following with him.  They're not going to stick if there's no representation of them on the boards and there's no room for them to speak their mind and find a way to make this community their home.  I'm not talking about lessening the PvP aspect of the game - I'm talking about reducing the negative stereotype of a PvP player on these boards.

 

Like everyone here I want this game to succeed.  I'm pretty stubborn and have a fairly tough skin but I'm not your usual snackcake.  I think it's worthwhile welcoming the Kosterites and making sure they have enough info and explanations to outweigh the noob go homeness that they're getting now.

 

I'm not sure if that means combing the boards and messaging them, making a new section that will allow them to discuss things like PVE options that go well with PvP or character stats or any of the myriad things that are not PvP related.  What do you think would work best? Any ideas? 

 

 

I sort of understand what your saying, but then again if the game isn't for you, you simply leave.


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