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Champion design 4/19/2016


Uyathefox
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Just wanted to make a quick post about the design of the Champion and the most recent changes, not so much about the balance of the game right now although that may come in the future.

 

 

"The Champion should have a massive presence (literally) on the field of battle. He has the potential for incredible damage, size, and some control with his blinds and suppression effects, but the player will need to balance that with weaker defenses, increased size, higher “Here I am! Can’t miss me!” visibility and slower base movement speed."

 

The way champions are described was high dps, but slow and squishy. It feels like that would be a poor design choice for the archetype overall and you might want to do a double take on some of the recent changes for this class (not just because there are more negatives to this class than positives already) .

 

-If you are going to have an archetype that is both slow and immobile it has to boast a large health pool and above average defense to scale it otherwise your just a giant easy target. The change to the champions health pool (Originally 53500 now 41750) will probably make champions borderline unviable in a team fight even with the gear damage reductions in place.

 

-Currently the champion's the punish game is pretty non existent  due to combat being to slow to have any high level plays/skillcap but because of that the champion which is slow by nature in a slow game, suffers a slightly higher handicap than the other archetypes right now. 

 

-The current change to gear also doesn't favor the champion, its kind of falling into the trap where you can build the class with any gear set you want but only 1 set is viable for your archetype. Besides the fact plate gear offers pretty much NO addition power bonuses it makes the slowest class even slower with big damage debuff and leather is currently by far the most nonviable set i've tried in siege. The champion is definitely no front line fighter and starting to feel more like a slow immobile duelist then a bruiser.

 

TLDR: The champions feels like a giant walking marshmallow carrying a sack of bricks.

 

 

 

http://crowfall.com/en/news/hunger-dome-2-we-aint-got-time-to-bleed/

 

http://crowfall.com/en/news/first-look-champion-powers-and-ui/

Sugoi ! - Head of Disciplinary Committee


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Well I think its pretty clear that they intend Champion to be a melee glass canon with giving them the exact same HPs as a Confessor. With these changes on paper they should get a boost to damage when facing leather and mail wearers. I'd be interested in seeing how the mobility improves with a Champion wearing mostly or even all leather. More stam and more sprinting and no movement penalty's like the other armors do. So yeah to me if going to play Champion might as well go all the way and be the wrecking ball type like they said they wanted. Wearing Mail or Plate to me would seem like too much a hindrance, IMO.

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We will see how the changes go. As it stands Champions are a priority target in Winterblades (and have been since early HD) simply because they are so easy to drop.

 

They don't have the high mobility of the confessor and their invuln, often triggered too late, allows time for dps to get in range to finish the job. As it stands Champs need to be played as mass CC specialists that get in and get out.

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I'm willing to reserve judgement till after the changes drop, but champion doesn't feel like a glass cannon, they just feels like glass. Not all dps need to be made equal, and I don't think the champion necessarily needs to do as much damage as the confessor, I'd be perfectly happy if he falls between the knight and the confessor in this category. However right now I think the Knight has more damage potential, simply because of all it's defensive abilities, mitigation and sustained dps he can put out. I'd like a few simple changes:

  • Make leap less time sensitive by having two 'charges' of it that refill once every 10 seconds. Instead leaping twice every 20 seconds, you could potentially leap every 10 seconds. Might need to lower the stamina cost. I can't remember if leap has a stun (i thought it did, but I haven't played champion for a little while). If not, add a short stun or slow on impact.
  • Ultimate Warrior keep the invulnerability (because of the animation lock) and slap on a small armor buff. Maybe instead of an armor buff this can be a barrier buff similar to Of Noble Blood.
  • Replace Strength of the mountains with something else entirely or at least lower the damage mitigation and allow movement.
  • Increase the spin speed and movement of Whirling Pain. This thing should be a chain saw, not slow and clunky. Maybe also attach projectile reflection.

Basically the champion just needs better survival tools, most of these can be built in to already existing abilities.

Edited by helix
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Taking some more inspiration from Shadowbane, the Champion's Ultimate Warrior ability could give him a significant max HP increase as part of the "Rage" effect. This could also be paired with a large "percent heal" which restores a large portion of the Champion's health. The Max HP increase and % Heal should probably be on a longer, separate cool down from the Ultimate Warrior ability itself. The result is increased staying power, while still maintaining the image of the Archetype as an offensive bruiser.

Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

Avari Discord - https://discord.gg/Bch24PV

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Make leap less time sensitive by having two 'charges' of it that refill once every 10 seconds. Instead leaping twice every 20 seconds, you could potentially leap every 10 seconds. Might need to lower the stamina cost. I can't remember if leap has a stun (i thought it did, but I haven't played champion for a little while). If not, add a short stun or slow on impact.

 

This would be a great change if they wanted to buff champs. Also just removing the stamina cost from leap altogether wouldn't be too bad. I feel like the stamina cost on leap is just annoying.

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This would be a great change if they wanted to buff champs. Also just removing the stamina cost from leap altogether wouldn't be too bad. I feel like the stamina cost on leap is just annoying.

What about this?

 

Move #1 spinning attack to RMB and it costs stamina. Press and hold, release at any time. Get rid of the first part of the combo as it isn't really useful.

 

Move leap to #1 and make it a 2 part combo. 1st part is a leap, 2nd part is a leap with a short stun at the end. 

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What about this?

 

Move #1 spinning attack to RMB and it costs stamina. Press and hold, release at any time. Get rid of the first part of the combo as it isn't really useful.

 

Move leap to #1 and make it a 2 part combo. 1st part is a leap, 2nd part is a leap with a short stun at the end. 

 

I'm hesitant to ask for any changes to whirlwind considering it's been bugged basically forever and will randomly not allow you to move while channeling it and also won't let you cancel the combo (If you're in a team fight and this happens you're dead)

 

The first part of the combo is pretty useful for a rage dump that does a lot of damage with a quick animation. I've been avoiding using the whirlwind portion of the ability for months because the bug is just too brutal right now..

 

I haven't played the most recent tests so maybe the bug has been fixed since I've played last.

Edited by Zybak
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Well, sooner or later the bug has to get fixed, and the canceling portion would go away since it would now be press and hold RMB, like knight's block, rather than press 1 then press E to cancel.

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Listen to Uya, he plays a champion almost exclusively!

thx bae

 

 

What about this?

 

Move #1 spinning attack to RMB and it costs stamina. Press and hold, release at any time. Get rid of the first part of the combo as it isn't really useful.

 

Move leap to #1 and make it a 2 part combo. 1st part is a leap, 2nd part is a leap with a short stun at the end. 

 

I'm hesitant to ask for any changes to whirlwind considering it's been bugged basically forever and will randomly not allow you to move while channeling it and also won't let you cancel the combo (If you're in a team fight and this happens you're dead)

 

The first part of the combo is pretty useful for a rage dump that does a lot of damage with a quick animation. I've been avoiding using the whirlwind portion of the ability for months because the bug is just too brutal right now..

 

I haven't played the most recent tests so maybe the bug has been fixed since I've played last.

The bugs have not been fixed yet, right now I'm not suggesting any inherent changes to abilities or adding/removing new tech to them im sure ACE has their hands full with the druid and the new persistent world. Just simply watch the scaling on some of these changes or better yet if they have to, do it a small amount at a time to find the balance. There is pretty much no really good reason to keep adding and changing values to balance some of these things. The last time they tried to balance the confessor it completely changed the dynamics and pretty much broke the class, in the end they just changed it back pretty close to what it was before.

Sugoi ! - Head of Disciplinary Committee


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I have pretty limited experience with the Champion, only testing in HD for two or three periods so far, but I agree that the Champion needs some reworking to make him more of a threat and less of a pin cushion. I found myself being way more successful in matches playing as a peeler instead of someone leading the charge.

 

For what its worth, I don't feel like a flat HP increase would do anything towards fixing/improving the Champion's current state. He needs additional mechanics/abilities in order to really fill out his wrecking ball persona.

 

Most important thing that crossed my mind in gameplay was already touched on by Helix:

  • Make leap less time sensitive by having two 'charges' of it that refill once every 10 seconds. Instead leaping twice every 20 seconds, you could potentially leap every 10 seconds. Might need to lower the stamina cost. I can't remember if leap has a stun (i thought it did, but I haven't played champion for a little while). If not, add a short stun or slow on impact.

A couple other changes I was brainstorming to help him out

 

Strength of the Mountain, aka "Please Surround me, because in 8 seconds I'm about to get train ran on me". Move was intended as an oh poorly made socks button, but really does little to save the Champion in most situations I've been in as I end up cut off from my team.

 

I'd like to see some combination of the following

  • mobility restrictions removed/lessened,
  • allow Champs to cancel it early
  • refresh the leap cooldown 
  • let it knock back enemies upon the ability finishing, increasing in distance depending on how long it was held.

 

Ultimate Warrior. A minor damage buff. Pretty underwhelming for a move named as such. Lasts a decent amount of time and is easy to put up, but I'd like to see it add more durability to the Champion. Maybe on charging it a 2nd time it removes all stuns/crowd control and makes you immune to them for the next 10 seconds?

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  • 4 months later...

I've been having a small identity crisis with all the talk about the myrmidon.  I had previously thought of the Champion as the bull in the china shop but now we have an actual bull and I wanted to float some ideas about how to better define the roll of the DPS Champion.

 

I feel the champion himself is not a slow moving hero.  He has the power to leap great distances and even with his size hes pretty damn quick and agile.  What makes him slow and lumbering is the giant weapon he totes around with him.  The champion himself is pretty intimidating but a skilled fighter knows where they have weakness, what terrifies a truly skilled warrior is an angry Champion.  Suddenly what moved slow because it was weighted down by a weapon that weighs as much as a grown man can cleave you and 6 of your closest friends in half.

 

I've mentioned before that Ultimate Warrior should have more impact on the game play of the champion than just increasing their damage so here are my suggestions

 

Level 0 ultimate warrior

  • Move speed at its slowest (probably the current level) but combat move speed needs to be much slower now that the weapon is balanced for your center of gravity
  • Attacks that use the weapon only get a step
    • LMB are arduous swings where the champion is just getting leverage on the weapon to swing it.  It still hurts like hell to get hit but you characters shouldn't have a problem running away from a champion at this point
    • Massive cleave needs to look like the initial swing of the hammer in the Olympics (the part where the Olympian isn't turning in circles)
    • Whirl wind should then look like the spinning portion of the hammer throw like the warrior ability in GW2 but no near as far at this stage
    • Rend needs the distance cut way down none of this single handed full extension hammer drop business
  • Attacks that don't use a weapon should be tied to the combat move speed so you only cover the equivalent of that distance (spinning back fist, viscous stomp, throw hurlbat

Level 1 ultimate warrior

  • Move speed at about the level of the Knight with combat speed around its current level
  • Attacks with or without a weapon are moving further and doing the same level of damage that is tuned for the animations at level 0

Level 2 ultimate warrior

  • Out of combat move speed a little slower than a centaur.  In combat speed around the current speed of the Champion out of combat
  • Attacks that use a weapon now look like the weapon is an extension of the champions body.  Damage is still calculated based on the level 0 animation but the attacks are much quicker and they have a bit more power behind them
    • LMB covers the distance that the champion would have run holding W while out of combat (in terms of the 8/26 test)
    • Massive cleave looks almost like a stretch covering more distance
    • Whirlwind now moves the champion forward in the target direction as far as combat walking would have taken him
    • Rend has equivalent distance as LMB
  • Attacks without a weapon are done at the combat move speed.  The animation and damage don't really change they just go further because the weapon is as much of an issue

I really like the leap but the idea that its the weapon weighing down the champ means I need to recommend a couple ideas for changing the theme of leap.  The champion can still leap but leap changes based on your UW level.  Here are some ideas of adding consequences to leap at a low UW level.

  • You actually drop the weapon and leave it behind until you and equip another
  • You get a self suppress debuff based on UW level.  6 seconds at 0, 3 seconds at 1, 0 seconds at 2.  The suppress should only impact abilities that require a weapon but remove any weapon buff from other abilities
  • Leap distance is changed based on UW level

My preference is bullet point 2 as I've put more thought into that version

 

I don't have any changes to recommend to hateful or neckbreaker.  I like the neckbreaker skill.  Hateful has its uses but going into any fight at half hp is usually a death sentence for me right now.

 

Finally this new dodge roll is something I'm not a fan off.  I'd prefer to see the champion brace for impact and reduce the damage done to him or reflect it back based on his size.

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