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Experiments with armor - Official discussion thread

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I love the idea of different armors with different resistances/abilities. But I really dislike body-part specific hits. This adds very little to the game unless you can target the body-part yourself, and I know both that servers won't be able to handle that, and that it wouldn't it be very fun considering how large the projectiles/cones are and how small the body-parts in this game are. All this system would do is clog up the servers with needless calculations and add very little to game play.

Don't know about adding very little. I would be pretty darn happy if I one-shot (or two-shot) someone with a headshot/decapitation. And going for the arms could decrease my enemies attack speed or reduce their damage output. And going for the legs can root/snare them. I think that would add to gameplay ;)


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Don't know about adding very little. I would be pretty darn happy if I one-shot (or two-shot) someone with a headshot/decapitation. And going for the arms could decrease my enemies attack speed or reduce their damage output. And going for the legs can root/snare them. I think that would add to gameplay ;)

Trying to aim for any body part with the current design will be a wasted effort; in fact, it is impossible.  Due to their size: ranged projectiles will always hit multiple body parts, and melee-cones aren't even possible to aim. Even worse: player body-targeting isn't what they are trying to do. What they are trying to do is:

 

"When a player is hit, a location for the hit is randomly rolled (sometimes skewed in the power, i.e. ground fields always hit the boot slot) and the resistances are used that match the piece of armor in that slot."

 

This adds nothing to the game play other then more meaningless calculations that barely effects the player. While accounting for what spells hit which body-part and armoring up accordingly could add some depth to the armor system, there are much better, much more player-involved ways to do this.

 

Aside: Even if the design is changed to make body-part targeting possible, unique hit-boxes for body-parts will be yet another large processing sink taking away yet more players from any single battle.

Edited by TragicNumberOne

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I look forward to experiencing all those "Oh, I just got custarded by RNG" moments.

The problem is that this will be a legitimate complaint. It is ridiculous that, for no reason at all, an attack hit's your weak armor area. Crits are different because they are something you "build into" in that there is an expected amount of them that the "criter" sacrificed guaranteed damage for.

 

If this system involved manually targeting a body-part, it might be reasonable. But the current game-scale wont support that very well. (and, as I said earlier, hitboxes for body parts are both not possible with the current scale of player-models, and is a sink on computer resources for a system that just isn't worth the costs when compared to other similarly stressful systems, or my favorite alternative: more players!)

Edited by TragicNumberOne

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I feel that a few things aren't really on point. I agree about the body-part RNG. It's nice, in theory, but this specific blueprint is pretty terrible. If you're going to have RNG decide hits, just skip the middle-man and apply a random bonus to each hit. I'm not even joking.

 

Along these same lines are the retaliation abilities. I feel like there's not much point to them if you don't have a branching combo's worth of options. Like... A is some kind of escape roll, while B deals AoE damage or applies an AoE effect, and C hits a single target but knocks them down/dazes them. That sort of thing. Just hopping up and hitting people around you every time isn't highly interesting. I don't care how long the cooldown is.

 

But, mini-tangent aside, either we need to have culminative bonuses from armor pieces (aka 20% physical plate helm plus 15% magical gloves = 20% physical mitigation and 15% magical mitigation on all hits), or we need some kind of intuitive system that allows for body part hits. Or maybe just attack type bonuses? Like... AoE ground-target attacks grant 50% more mitigation from your boots and 50% less mitigation from your helmet, etc. But, that system would need to make immediate sense, so that we'd be able to strategically choose armor pieces AND tactically take advantage of enemies' armor weaknesses by focusing more on attacks that target specific pieces.


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I look forward to experiencing all those "Oh, I just got custarded by RNG" moments.

 

Exactly and getting rid of unnecessary RNG is one of the appeals of action combat - the idea that you succeeded because you were good, not because the RNG gods smiled upon you. Adding some thing like this in would just be a step backwards from what they're trying to do.

 

 

Along these same lines are the retaliation abilities. I feel like there's not much point to them if you don't have a branching combo's worth of options. Like... A is some kind of escape roll, while B deals AoE damage or applies an AoE effect, and C hits a single target but knocks them down/dazes them. That sort of thing. Just hopping up and hitting people around you every time isn't highly interesting. I don't care how long the cooldown is.

 

 

The idea of a Retaliate skill is cool I think, even if all you use it for is getting up. Who doesn't want to get up ASAP from a knockdown?

 

I don't know if you've ever played Aion or TERA but they both had retaliation skills and they worked really well. It's basically just a CC break, so using it wisely definitely helped.

 

In TERA it didn't have any follow up skills, but it did do a small amount of damage. It's main purpose however was to get yourself up ASAP so you could get away from that person hitting you and you could spec into the skills to do things like reduced CD or more damage. Otherwise, you were sitting on the ground for a longer length of time while the enemy got in free damage on you. That sucks lol, so I'll take a retaliate skill any day. Not getting hit is highly interesting to me.

 

Aion's skill was called Remove Shock and it did do the branching combo thing, so you could for example stun them back or do more damage, but it would remove the short CC protection buff you got from the Remove Shock if you chose to use a combo (TERA also had a short few second CC protection thing on theirs).

Edited by Leiloni

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Like many others have stated, I am very against having the RNG body hits as well. I don't think the system in its current state would support the precision that Fenris is wanting so I would go more with the option of just having all hits be equal. That is definitely something that can be revisited later but RNG with body portions is a really bad idea.

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Don't know about adding very little. I would be pretty darn happy if I one-shot (or two-shot) someone with a headshot/decapitation. And going for the arms could decrease my enemies attack speed or reduce their damage output. And going for the legs can root/snare them. I think that would add to gameplay ;)

 

TragicNumberOne is correct, more than 1 hitbox collider would CRUSH the servers. Not to mention the amount of effort to build different sets of hitbox colliders per bodytype. Most importantly, gameplay just doesn't support it. We aren't a shooter, we primarily use cones and rectangles for determining targets, not raycasts. Lastly our projectiles are so big you would always hit multiple locations anyways. 

 

There is a reason shooters get away with it. They have very limited variety in bodytypes, they have only a limited amount of people in a map, they have small projectiles or primarily use raycats, and are cool with it taking up to 30 seconds to load a map and all the characters in it.

 

This is what a multi hitbox collider looks like from a shooter (18 locations):

proto4_hitboxes.png

 

This is what we have in MMO land, 1 hitbox (that pill area around the Knight):

KnightBoxes_1.jpg

 

 

The only reason you would ever take a BIG OMG hit, is if you were not wearing armor in the location where you got hit. And why would you do that?


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The only reason you would ever take a BIG OMG hit, is if you were not wearing armor in the location where you got hit. And why would you do that?

 

Style, of course.


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Please no more FPS features.

 

Also, when we talk about heavy armor, what about making it, well, heavy? Slower move speed, less stamina regeneration, and slower turn rate all sound like interesting options.


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I'm a little bit concerned about Leather.

 

 

LargeTable-2.jpg

 

No damage/Movement malus, strong resistance in nearly all damage except weapons and if you take a look at enchantments for confessors : 

 

 

 

  • Full leather - Righteousness procs increase critical chance by 5% for 30 seconds stacking to a maximum of 50%.

 

This look really insane, aren't we going to see clones everywhere like in TESO who claimed you can do everything with armors/weapons and where everyone was running with cloth + staves?

 

Except plate you can really see why people are going to take leather instead of scales and so you gonna get tank wearer for plates and dps for leather, and it's all.

 

I liked the actual stats on armor (scale for crit chance, leather for crit damage, plate for resistance) and i like how you want to change the way the armors will impact the archetypes, but i'm a little afraid yet.


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Most of us didn't ask for more hitboxes (though separating the main one in front and back would be nice)... We know the engine isn't close to Darkfall's that had 3 hitboxes and 500 players fights.

 

But for the love of God remove the RNG. Make ALL powers hit different part of the body or remove the idea of separating hits at all.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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I'm fine with the RNG. I think it makes it a little more interesting. Besides, there's RNG on both sides of the equation. Powers and weapons all have damage ranges. When you attack, the game uses RNG to determine how much damage the weapon does and how much damage the ability does.

 

If there was no RNG on the mitigation side, then wearing all plate with leather boots wouldn't make as much of a difference. The lower mitigation would be averaged out and be relatively insignificant. However, with the possibility of an attack hitting the boots, the lower mitigation has a chance to have a larger effect.

 

The alternative is that every attack with the same ability and weapon always does the same amount of damage pre-mitigation, and the same set of armor always mitigates the same percentage of damage. That might be nice for testing/comparing, but it's also rather boring IMO.

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I'm fine with the RNG. I think it makes it a little more interesting. Besides, there's RNG on both sides of the equation. Powers and weapons all have damage ranges. When you attack, the game uses RNG to determine how much damage the weapon does and how much damage the ability does.

 

If there was no RNG on the mitigation side, then wearing all plate with leather boots wouldn't make as much of a difference. The lower mitigation would be averaged out and be relatively insignificant. However, with the possibility of an attack hitting the boots, the lower mitigation has a chance to have a larger effect.

 

The alternative is that every attack with the same ability and weapon always does the same amount of damage pre-mitigation, and the same set of armor always mitigates the same percentage of damage. That might be nice for testing/comparing, but it's also rather boring IMO.

 

Types of RNG I am okay with:

 

1. Unavoidable ones... those are generally linked with how the projectile trajectory is approximated and client/server interactions.

2. Critical hits and min/max damages, when they are connected to stats and % in general, that a player can increase or not through character building.

 

We don't need MORE rng that is completely out of player's hands.

And your example is meaningless if all powers attacked specific parts of the body instead of just having average damages.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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This is my favorite part about being part of the development process. You guys have also been really open with it which can be seen as a huge risk. Gamers aren't always the smartest folks and oftentimes fail to understand what development really is, i.e. they have bad performance in alpha and tell their friends it's an optimized piece of crap, ect.

 

Personally I love it. Especially the fact that you aren't afraid to try stuff out just because it might be cool (hello fun, is that you coming back to game design?) and then listen to our opinions about it. I still have my own personal worries about the game, but let it be said that you guys are a stellar development studio. Kind of really eager now to fast forward a year.


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Without fear or haste, on bedding made of solitude and silence.

 

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