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Blair & Koster on social systems - Official discussion thread

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Your guild is a hard-tie connection. I believe we were talking about weak-tie (or soft-touch) interdependence at that point.

I agree. Reading the question again I think they're not even talking about guild to guild relationships so much as "pick up" or any spontaneous type relationships. Crafting, commerce and otherwise.

 

I was talking about sub-guilds and alliances and such, but looking at it, that's not what they're getting at. 

Edited by coolwaters

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Glad to see them confirm monster taming, I dont know if that had been confirmed before or not but its new info for me!

 

Yup, a little throwback to UO.  The first character I made in an MMORPG was in UO and all I did with that character was tame.  I am very happy that this will be a thing. 

 

I know that this will probably make the hardcore pks cringe, but I think it might be cool to keep food stores/other resources for your team in the form of herds.  Imaging grazing a herd of tamed hellcows or sheepogriffs whilst fending off rustlers.  Sounds very unique to me, and I do it.


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I would love to see social/group aspects in professions like this as well.  

 

For example, if someone wants to tame a smaller or more domestic creature like a cat or wild goat, you can do it solo.  But something like a small dragon would require a group effort.  For example:

 

Millie the Tamer gathers four friends to attempt to tame a small yearling dragon.  The order is from another player who wants a dragon for their zoo in their EK and it willing to pay top coin.  Even small dragons require group efforts to capture and tame, since you do not want anyone hurt, especially the dragon.  

 

Millie has consulted with more experienced tamers and develops a plan which requires coordinated effort.  Once the group has located a candidate of the right size, each task must be done in particular order.  The group scout places special food, which distracts the young dragon for a short but vital period of time.  As the young dragon eats, the group mage approaches and casts a calming spell, which ensures the beast can be approached and handled, also for a short window of time.  Once these two effects are in place, step three must happen immediately - the two "wranglers" each approach a separate wing of the dragon and secure it so it doesn't fly away, which they need a specific taming skill to accomplish.  However doing this starts a countdown where, unless the dragon is tamed immediately, the beast becomes wild again and can even attack.  Knowing this, Millie approaches and, using her special taming skill, makes the attempt to tame.  Success depends on a variety of factors, including her taming skill level, whether she has special taming skills for dragons in particular, the type of dragon, size and age of the dragon, the quality and power of the various taming and magical skills of her helpers, and some pure luck.  

 

Taming can be a sort of mini-game, and various tamers can acquire specialty skill trees that make them better at taming certain types of animals or serving as "wranglers" "scouts" or "calmers" to other tamers who need a group effort for certain animals.  Having the ability to tame dragons, especially to serve as beasts of burden or even war mounts, could be a very special and valuable skill and you could see a group of friends going into such a business and having a lot of fun along the way.

 

The idea of SWG-style social and crafting aspects that contribute to the PVP is what really has me excited.  I never played SWG, but everyone talks about it like it was heaven.  I only wish they would also bring back the Dancing profession from SWG, as that sounds like a lot of fun too.

 

I like your ideas on taming. I really hope all taming animals can be sold and or traded. I hope taming requires nets that have to be crafted as well and that some monsters are extremely rare or contested world bosses etc.

 

Having monster zoo would be really cool, I'd be down for that.


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Yup, a little throwback to UO.  The first character I made in an MMORPG was in UO and all I did with that character was tame.  I am very happy that this will be a thing. 

 

I know that this will probably make the hardcore pks cringe, but I think it might be cool to keep food stores/other resources for your team in the form of herds.  Imaging grazing a herd of tamed hellcows or sheepogriffs whilst fending off rustlers.  Sounds very unique to me, and I do it.

 

It would be really cool to have a Archetype that could command more than one combat pet at a time, ie a herd. I like having 3-4 pets do all you attacking for you, even if said pets are weakfish still be fun for some people like me. Like be a beast master (not sure if something already exists), maybe at the highest levels he can command 5-6 but they need to be the same type of animals so they all get along with each other LOL.


Check out my youtube channel for testing gameplay https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCp-AgZ6mHOVObusemDVEXoA

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Its going to be great to be able to train animals for pets,mounts,and caravans

But the skills name Animal husbandry sounds dirty. So I'm marrying these animals?

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We used a four digit scale for each stat, which meant that two resources with identical stats except for a one point difference between 978 and 979 had to be stored as unique.

Wow. What a terrible implementation. I seriously hope this Raph guy isn't in charge of anything important for CF.

 

Just give each container an array of entries with each entry being something like this overly simple example:

ENTITY=item; MAJORTYPE=resource; TYPE=ore; MINORTYPE=copper; WEIGHT=9.7531; VOLUME=3.1415; QUALITY=6.2831; TRADEABLE=1

 

There's no need for a bajillion entities in a database for what is essentially a single item with variable attributes.  To limit the amount of stuff that can be carried around just give all containers a capacity in volume, and all carriers a strength stat.  Volume cannot be exceeded, and exceeding strength results in encumbrance.

 

 

 

Not sure how I feel about Archetypes being tied to crafting, but I'll give it a shot. Maybe I can make the best Guinecean Stone Mason.

 

It's absolutely tarded. They said before that crafting was going to be in your general skills, nothing to do with your archetype. So now if I want to play a Frostweaver, but my crafting interests are in siege engines or blacksmithing I'm boned? Thanks a whole lot ACE. You guys are making the game worse all the time. :(

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It's absolutely tarded. They said before that crafting was going to be in your general skills, nothing to do with your archetype. So now if I want to play a Frostweaver, but my crafting interests are in siege engines or blacksmithing I'm boned? Thanks a whole lot ACE. You guys are making the game worse all the time. :(

I don't think that was what ACE was implying. I think they meant that that Myrmidons could naturally build walls faster than Guineceans, because they're taller and stronger. Guineceans might be better at crafting Siege engines because of their engineering superiority. And even in the interview they said there would be Disciplines that could overcome that natural superiority (and I'm assuming those runes can't be applied to Archetypes with that natural superiority) So they're mostly meaningless unless you're a dedicated stone mason/siege engineer.

 

Also SWG had the best crafting system of ANY mmo and Raph was the one who designed it.


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Leaves more questions then IT answers at this point. Still know next to nothing about crafting system. Considering its the supposed basis for and strategic core component of the campaigns we know very little.

As the game moves further along in development the unfinished areas like crafting are becoming more and more like a weird 6 pronged puzzle piece that clearly was designed with the main task of fitting the last open spot and connecting everything else together.  Crafting impacts everything - combat, the EK's, builds, game storage, player to player interactions.  I have an image in my head of a huge scrolled list half hanging from a wall in CF HQ with the title "Crafting has to accommodate or provide the following:" heading up a 20 foot long ream of scrawled notes.

 

On the plus side, one of the better aspects of Crowfall overall is that the devs are willing to at least explore going outside the box to solve gaming issues.  I'm not sure how the balance of a Diablo style inventory vs. enough room to actually harvest mats is going to work out, or how feasible actually crafting in campaigns will be, but at least I'm reading in this particular article that there's awareness of the impact that crafting and its various components will have on the game.   So far there's been a pretty high level of creativity so I'm banking on crafting being a unique system that fits CF well.

 

I have the feeling they're waiting to do crafting near the end of the game build and it will be that bizarrely shaped puzzle piece, designed to bridge together all the other systems.

 


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Very good interview with great information!

 

If implemented correctly the "non combat" classes and professions could really make a difference in a campaign it seems.


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I think the team has the exact right idea in regards to why other MMOs fail with their social systems, because most modern MMOs are not social.

They are so casual, solo play focused that at no point do you need other people.  If you ask any original WoW player why they played the game, even when so many clones and even better games came out, it was because they played because their friends were playing.

 

An MMO that isn't social fails at the single underlying reason people go to this genre in the first place.

It's one of the main reasons I stopped playing MMOs, they aren't very social.

 

 

That doesn't mean you have to force grouping in every instance, so that you can't make any progress without people.  But rather certain things are either going to be unavailable to you, or very difficult solo.  EVE Online gets a lot of this right.  Soloing around hi sec space is easy to do, low sec run the risk of getting ganked, and null sec is basically walking into a war zone.  So if you want to go to some places, you just need people backing you up.  If you want to own territory, you need people.

 

Crafting also ranges from a single player affair for small ships, weapons and ammo.  But large ships, capital ships esp are a multi person endeavor.  There is a whole manufacturing chain as if you are building an actual commercial airplane or something.  And you need a lot of people at every link in the chain.

 

 

Crowfall could do much the same.  Main hub towns and surrounding areas are relatively safe, but the further you go out the better stuff you can get, but also far more dangerous it becomes, to where you just need people if you expect to survive.  Building siege weapons could simply take multiple people, castles take even more.

 

 

The only thing that does still worry me is whether or not non-combat gameplay options are going to be actually enjoyable or not.

More often then not, MMOs only have combat that is even remotely enjoyable, and everything else more or less gets shafted.  Crafting is usually little more then playing a vending machine.  Insert resources, press button, wait, out comes item, maybe.

In other words there is no mechanics nor depth behind these systems.  

 

Even in games like EVE Online which makes crafting a core system, with depth, are still non existent gameplay wise.

Sure animal husbandry, taming, farming, etc do sound like they would give the game more things to do, but what's the point if they lack either depth or engagement?

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On the topic of resource quality variance vs inventory storage... People have mentioned mashing different qualities together into one stack, but that's completely unnecessary. Here's all you have to do:

 

1) Make about 5 or 6 major quality levels -- A, B, C, D, E, F, etc.

2) Give them set base stats or stat ranges. Maybe F iron has between 1 and 50 Durability or something (pure example... Dunno what Durability would even do, specifically). E would then have between 51 and 100. Now, you aren't carrying around 100 different instances of iron, but 2.

3) Treat a stack of iron in your inventory like an iron-only container. How much iron ore do you have? 70. It's one inventory slot. How much E and how much F? 40 E and 30 F. You can separate them out easily if you'd like.

4) Allow some degree of RNG to determine the SPECIFIC stat value of a piece of iron ore at the smelting/refining process. Maybe for F-quality iron it's 1-50, random roll. Maybe if you have a skill of 40 in Metal Refinery, it adds +40 to the roll (max of the material's quality cap), bringing your range to 41-50. Or something even remotely similar.

 

You can always add a greater level of specific variance when you need to, without having 1,000 different variants of iron ore be gatherable. There's a way to accomplish what they want, methinks.


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On the topic of resource quality variance vs inventory storage... People have mentioned mashing different qualities together into one stack, but that's completely unnecessary. Here's all you have to do:

 

1) Make about 5 or 6 major quality levels -- A, B, C, D, E, F, etc.

2) Give them set base stats or stat ranges. Maybe F iron has between 1 and 50 Durability or something (pure example... Dunno what Durability would even do, specifically). E would then have between 51 and 100. Now, you aren't carrying around 100 different instances of iron, but 2.

3) Treat a stack of iron in your inventory like an iron-only container. How much iron ore do you have? 70. It's one inventory slot. How much E and how much F? 40 E and 30 F. You can separate them out easily if you'd like.

4) Allow some degree of RNG to determine the SPECIFIC stat value of a piece of iron ore at the smelting/refining process. Maybe for F-quality iron it's 1-50, random roll. Maybe if you have a skill of 40 in Metal Refinery, it adds +40 to the roll (max of the material's quality cap), bringing your range to 41-50. Or something even remotely similar.

 

You can always add a greater level of specific variance when you need to, without having 1,000 different variants of iron ore be gatherable. There's a way to accomplish what they want, methinks.

I don't really understand your line of thinking.

The way I was thinking of it, since I play a lot of Path of Exile, is in a grid like system.

Some single slot items do stack, but multi slot items don't stack.

 

For example Stone.  Stone could come in various sizes when you harvest it, each having their own usages.   Stone piece are 1x1, Stone bricks are 2x2, Stone chunks are 3x3, and Stone slabs are 5x5.  If your inventory is only 12x6, you would only be able to fit 2 slabs max.  But a caravan cart could be much larger and carry many more slabs.

But you might not need slabs, as they would be for castle buildings and larger buildings in general, so instead you could have the option to break larger materials down.

 

A Stone slab could be broken into chunks, that could then broken into bricks, and finally pieces.  Stone pieces might be able to be stacked to a degree, making them easier to transport.  However smaller pieces can't be made into larger parts ever again, so it all depends on what your using the material for.

If your building a hut, you only need stone bricks, but if you want to build a castle your going to need slabs.  And thus you will need the proper transportation if you want to get the job done timely.

 

I see a system like this being a good logistical challenge, while still being flexible for regular crafting.

 

 

Certain equipment could stack larger sized items.  Such as a gathers backpack and stack 2x2 items or less, making it useful if you want to transport a large number of bricks or similar sized materials.

Small caravans could stack up to 4x4 (or similar dimensions like 2x6), and large transports like airships, boats, or large caravans can carry stack and carry the largest of items.

 

So if you really want to transport a lot of goods, your going to need specialty equipment for it.  Which are likely going to be large, slow and unwieldy, making them a target for bandits.

Again adding to the logistical challenge of it all.

Edited by yoh

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I don't think anybody can fully understand the level of excitement and anxiety this post brings me.

 

If Crowfall gets the Economy game right, they can just take my money....just take it.

 

That being said, this interview really makes it seem like a lot of these systems are still in the brainstorming phase. It really worries me that there isn't more concrete progression when there are only 7 months left of development.

 

Then again, I never really expected it to be released in 2016....

Edited by IdeaMatrix

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