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PC Gamer exclusive: Under siege

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i've not been able to read all of this thread.

 

just to add: was the trailer made by ACE or just PC GAMER filming inside via a character?

 

(for all those going on at ace for either the qualify or timing - really might not be up to them!)


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When we make marketing pieces, we use what we have, with the game we currently have. Yes sometimes it's rough that X feature doesn't look as good as it will in a few weeks, or that optimization Y isn't in yet giving us another 5 FPS, but that is the reality of being so transparent.

 

Thanks for those of you who realize this and back us up when people start throwing rocks!

 

Well, I can appreciate that, but for the general market out there they want their PC demos to look like butter because they imagine the footage was captured on a tricked out rig whose like is found only in the environment of a commercial enterprise with a substantial expense account. From that basis they extrapolate what their current rig might be able to achieve.


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Sekket on Mourning. Bhorov on Test Server. Youma the Pirate wherever TSP has sailed.

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I think we all agree here, the trailer could have been much better and given the amount of viewers and negative feedback, it feels like a wasted opportunity. Can't really understand who's constantly defending DEVs for clearly wrong decisions, but I share their feeling that it's not the end of the world yet. Let's take the feedback (not ignore it) and move on.
 

Then you'll remember that myself and Maj ran the alliance, crushed the entire main land, moved to an island and crushed that, and realized there was no one else to fight. I'm sorry you stuck around to pick flowers afterwards.


In which guild? VAMP? Not -W-. Sure, you had the US times covered. Ask Maj who ran all the EU sieges and conquered half Yssam (after mainland) with an hamlet called Jeradan. You're not gonna rewrite history bro, next time tell your pals not to quit if they wanna brag.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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On Topic:  They'll do better next time.  Live and learn.

 

Off Topic:

 

In which guild? VAMP? Not -W-. Sure, you had the US times covered. Ask Maj who ran all the EU sieges and conquered half Yssam (after mainland) with an hamlet called Jeradan. You're not gonna rewrite history bro, next time tell your pals not to quit if they wanna brag.

 

Considering I was 2nd in command of the alliance (that you were clearly a peon in), and the siege commander (again, an error in your memory telling me you weren't really involved in any major way), I think I'm well aware of what went down.  Additionally, your ignorance of who we are is misleading your thought process here.  -W- is a core of 15 members or so.  We're not a large guild.  We recruited selectively for Darkfall (as we are doing for Crowfall) and reached about 100 members in beta.  What makes our guild is the incredibly organized leadership we have, and the quality players we choose to play with.

 

Then the game launched AND NO ONE COULD BUY THE GAME.  So a handful of us managed to get through the ridiculous buying process.  If I remember it was about 10-15 of us, resulting in a lot of the core not being able to purchase a copy.  We managed to grab a city early in the game (Erinthel) as a -W- asset.  However, we all know that 10-15 people weren't going to hold on to a gem such as Erinthel for long, so the Shadowbane Alliance was eventually formed.  At some point it didn't seem plausible to maintain a small guild, so we eventually folded into VAMP.  Didn't matter what tag we had above our head, our members (including myself) were heavily involved in every conflict the alliance had.

 

So please, try to get your facts straight before you write your next post.  No one believes what you're saying anymore, anyways.  I encourage you to ask Maj himself and see what he has to say about -W-.

 

(edit: fixed typos)

Edited by damebix

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regarding the talk of all the guilds getting together for video material - we should remember this when mini campaign goes live - arranging balanced 3 way faction fighting would look dam cool :) [and coordinating times for all given the more persistent server state]


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Damn it.

 

Just stop this nonsense already.

Talking endlessly about such a minor issue.

Making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

Its really enough now.

Who gives a crap about some idiots writing stupid stuff on the internet?!

Haters gonna hate, lovers gonna love, and Idiots gonna persistently ruin society. Dont be idiots.

 

So what?! The trailer wasnt a high definition cinematic trailer which got nothing to do with the actual game or being made by the developers of the game, but some actual real ingame footage instead?!

Just because these consumer idiots of nowadays are used to high budget HD cinematic trailers, which arent either in ingame engine, nor got anything to do with the actual game itself, doesnt mean we have to follow this misleading road, leading to a boring, stupid, uninteresting game, of which the market is full of already, giving people who are really insterested and engaged with video gaming nothing worth to play at the moment.

There is a reason why real honest game companys are making videos about their game only in actual game engine, and being very supported by their communities for doing so, not showing them stuff which doesnt exist in any way in the game itself. Star Citizen, Camelot Unchained and all other independent/crowdfunded game projects are doing it like this, because its honest and real, this is helping everyone in the end. If you prefer the wrong ignorant and arrogant way of showing off with high budget HD cinematics about stuff which got nothing to do with the game you want to play, then by all means, go watch a damn movie instead. People like you are making gaming in general becoming just interactive movies for slight, shallow, casual entertainment people.

 

Like I give a **** about idiots talking nonsense about stuff they dont understand or have any real clue about. Who cares?!

There is sooo much more important stuff happening on this planet, but well situated consumer people are babbling about this instead of dealing with the real problems in society. God you are all so full of yourselves.

Next year Crowfall gonna show them anyway, so whats the deal?!

Go and do something real useful and productive towards a better world instead of this BS here.

Dont make me have to write into this thread again.

Edited by Urahara

After EverQuest Next is gone, its Star Citizen for me.

 

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Yeah, I agree. I think this was a PR misstep.

 

To give a little context, we didn't make the video *for* PC gamer.  We just had it on the schedule to make a video for a normal Tues/Thurs update, to show how the destruction stuff was coming along for people who aren't in Siege Perilous.  If this video had just been posted for you guys, i.e. just another weekly update, I don't think it would even been talked about that much.  "Oh, some of the destruction stuff.  Cool."

 

An opportunity came up to place something with PC gamer and we took it.  In hindsight, the video was a bad choice.  It would have been better to do an interview with some screenshots, or character renders or something.  We have a lot of great stuff to show, but the truth is that the game just isn't in a state yet where we should be trying to cut together trailers.  It's too early and too un-optimized.

 

On the good side, we did see a big up-tick in registrations yesterday (a multiple over any day last week) so at least some of the people who read the article (which was positive) and saw the video were interested enough to sign up.  

 

So: we learn from it, and do better next time.

 

...

 

Oh, and one more thing, I would just like to say to Courant and JamesGoblin and the others who jumped in to defend us:  Thank you.  

 

Todd

ACE


J Todd Coleman

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

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Yeah, I agree. I think this was a PR misstep.

 

To give a little context, we didn't make the video *for* PC gamer.  We just had it on the schedule to make a video for a normal Tues/Thurs update, to show how the destruction stuff was coming along for people who aren't in Siege Perilous.  If this video had just been posted for you guys, i.e. just another weekly update, I don't think it would even been talked about that much.  "Oh, some of the destruction stuff.  Cool."

 

An opportunity came up to place something with PC gamer and we took it.  In hindsight, the video was a bad choice.  It would have been better to do an interview with some screenshots, or character renders or something.  We have a lot of great stuff to show, but the truth is that the game just isn't in a state yet where we should be trying to cut together trailers.  It's too early and too un-optimized.

 

On the good side, we did see a big up-tick in registrations yesterday (a multiple over any day last week) so at least some of the people who read the article (which was positive) and saw the video were interested enough to sign up.  

 

So: we learn from it, and do better next time.

 

...

 

Oh, and one more thing, I would just like to say to Courant and JamesGoblin and the others who jumped in to defend us:  Thank you.  

 

Todd

ACE

 

And the next trailer you release to a wider audience will blow this one out of the water.  The people will be impressed and reconsider.


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Yeah, I agree. I think this was a PR misstep.

 

To give a little context, we didn't make the video *for* PC gamer.  We just had it on the schedule to make a video for a normal Tues/Thurs update, to show how the destruction stuff was coming along for people who aren't in Siege Perilous.  If this video had just been posted for you guys, i.e. just another weekly update, I don't think it would even been talked about that much.  "Oh, some of the destruction stuff.  Cool."

 

An opportunity came up to place something with PC gamer and we took it.  In hindsight, the video was a bad choice.  It would have been better to do an interview with some screenshots, or character renders or something.  We have a lot of great stuff to show, but the truth is that the game just isn't in a state yet where we should be trying to cut together trailers.  It's too early and too un-optimized.

 

On the good side, we did see a big up-tick in registrations yesterday (a multiple over any day last week) so at least some of the people who read the article (which was positive) and saw the video were interested enough to sign up.  

 

So: we learn from it, and do better next time.

 

...

 

Oh, and one more thing, I would just like to say to Courant and JamesGoblin and the others who jumped in to defend us:  Thank you.  

 

Todd

ACE

 

So THEY made the video?

 

or you mean you guys just did it generally

 

edit: nevermind missreading. ACE made :)

 

glad pick up on interest either way! As I said the video was good vibe I thought :)

 

ignore comment trolls, its never good regardless of the material.

Edited by Tinnis

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Yeah, I agree. I think this was a PR misstep.

 

To give a little context, we didn't make the video *for* PC gamer.  We just had it on the schedule to make a video for a normal Tues/Thurs update, to show how the destruction stuff was coming along for people who aren't in Siege Perilous.  If this video had just been posted for you guys, i.e. just another weekly update, I don't think it would even been talked about that much.  "Oh, some of the destruction stuff.  Cool."

 

An opportunity came up to place something with PC gamer and we took it.  In hindsight, the video was a bad choice.  It would have been better to do an interview with some screenshots, or character renders or something.  We have a lot of great stuff to show, but the truth is that the game just isn't in a state yet where we should be trying to cut together trailers.  It's too early and too un-optimized.

 

On the good side, we did see a big up-tick in registrations yesterday (a multiple over any day last week) so at least some of the people who read the article (which was positive) and saw the video were interested enough to sign up.  

 

So: we learn from it, and do better next time.

 

...

 

Oh, and one more thing, I would just like to say to Courant and JamesGoblin and the others who jumped in to defend us:  Thank you.  

 

Todd

ACE

 

 

If I call back how much the hype train for TESO went off, it was like flying and going rocket-like into space kinda, for not any real reason at all behind it, which we had to find out afterwads, then I have to say, you guys are making an incredible excellent job.

Just please dont lose hope in being honest and real with us from person to person.

Dont let this minor issue interfere with your awesome and interesting way of communication up to now!

Its really great to be here with you guys, really!

Its the first time ever where I do see any sense for participating in the forums of a game developer at all. And I am into gaming really long time.

Edited by Urahara

After EverQuest Next is gone, its Star Citizen for me.

 

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Courant and JG actually answered to everyone there, so props to them for helping the cause.

+1 JTC, we'll hopefully do better next time.

 

To damebix:

 

 

Considering I was 2nd in command of the alliance (that you were clearly a peon in), and the siege commander (again, an error in your memory telling me you weren't really involved in any major way), I think I'm well aware of what went down.  Additionally, your ignorance of who we are is misleading your thought process here.  -W- is a core of 15 members or so.  We're not a large guild.  We recruited selectively for Darkfall (as we are doing for Crowfall) and reached about 100 members in beta.  What makes our guild is the incredibly organized leadership we have, and the quality players we choose to play with.

 

Then the game launched AND NO ONE COULD BUY THE GAME.  So a handful of us managed to get through the ridiculous buying process.  If I remember it was about 10-15 of us, resulting in a lot of the core not being able to purchase a copy.  We managed to grab a city early in the game (Erinthel) as a -W- asset.  However, we all know that 10-15 people weren't going to hold on to a gem such as Erinthel for long, so the Shadowbane Alliance was eventually formed.  At some point it didn't seem plausible to maintain a small guild, so we eventually folded into VAMP.  Didn't matter what tag we had above our head, our members (including myself) were heavily involved in every conflict the alliance had.

 

So please, try to get your facts straight before you write your next post.  No one believes what you're saying anymore, anyways.  I encourage you to ask Maj himself and see what he has to say about -W-.

 

Don't cry too much man, it's not my fault if your guild crumbled in a matter of months and had to join vamp. Everyone had problems buying the game, even me. I am not interested in rewriting history like you seem to, for sure a couple of -W- members helped vamp when they joined the guild.. (the only one I remember clearly is Ssly), but the few of you were so unimportant compared to the rest of the alliance and the fact that you had to lose your tag proves it. You were there helping to lead VAMP? Good for you, I don't see what that has to do with -W-, almost everyone you have in the tests now didn't even play DF. The only 4 guilds that ever had an impact in the alliance were TSP, vamp, SD and UN.

 

We were the ones in charge of sieges in EU times (learn to read), and often we even had to have few people login at night only to use our hamlet to siege. If you wanna pretend that your little presence in vamp somewhat changed the course of events, feel free to. When TSP & vamp left the EU server for the opening of the US one, we and SD are the guilds they thanked though (even officially on the forum with a thread made by Maj), and our new alliance with SD kept destroying everything in its path, just saying. ;)

 

Check the facts when you wake up. (search for any guild in the alliance, you'll find only ultima noxa, vamp and TSP at times)

We are a small guild as well, probably not more than 20, yet we didn't crumble and at some point we had 4 cities when vamp had 3.

I also encourage you to open a new thread or use old ones to ask DF veterans about -W-, since sadly the old DF forums are gone.

 

Can't say much about other games, 'cause they had separate EU/US servers, but you guys couldn't fight for crap on DF, lost most of your members and had to merge. No words can change what happened, save your poor explanations and complaints on the combat system to someone that didn't watch you play and fight for months. I have no doubt that your new -W- sheeps will probably believe their GL and not me, but if they want to know the truth they are free to ask unbiased people who were there. ;)

 

Let's take this discussion where it belongs though.. me, some SD members and other DF folks are on slack if you want to keep making us laugh.

 

 

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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I quit too early to know first hand (because it sucked donkey balls and I was sick of macroing all night!), but Angelmar is as honest as the day is long and this was his take, historically:

 

http://winterblades.net/history/chapter-six/

 

edit: really it looks like your point is that because -W- left DF after these events (described above) that indicates they were bad? That's about the most I can tell. I am quite certain Maj would back up Dame's story here though. I doubt even the (quite literal) leader of your nation would mean anything to your hard-headed ass though. :P Makes me wonder who's really revising history.

Edited by coolwaters

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Cherry picking some of the positive comments, those ones maybe weren't really visible under the waves :P :

 

 

 

"Honestly I'm more hyped about Camelot Unchained, but I still want to give this a shot. From everything I've seen so far it's worth a try at least." 

"Well i for one was impressed. Looks matter to some degree but the pvp siege gameplay is what drew me here."  

"Anyone played the pre-alpha yet? How is this game? It looks pretty dope, the aesthetic is nice."  

"I'm super excited to give it a shot!"  

"The castle build reminds me alot of Warhammer AOR [...] Yeah :) I miss WAR so much :( Even though it had its flaws.. " 

"Someone liked WvW in GW2 it seems"  

"looks like it has potential to be a good twitch game or even mlg"  

"nice"  

"I'm skeptical, but it looks promising."  

"This MMO has me hoping. A lovely concept and I think it's really needed to fill the void. Too many boring MMOs out there. The concept of this on kickstarter is quite cool. The 'campaign' concept to me seems really cool and comfortable. Seems like a really friendly game to bring in a friend or two at any point and start playing a new campaign. [...]"  

"Yea that's right, I've seen some peeps do a gameplay video with full UI and it looks very enjoyable."  

"It could be caused by the fact that it's pre-alpha. Mafia 3 animations looked awful as well on the first gameplay we saw (from gamescom I think) and it got better"  

"For pre-alpha it doesn't look too bad, but its still looks pretty clunky. They have plenty of time to fix stuff though."  

"Honestly I think it's kind of refreshing that they are just displaying the game in it's current state, and not making empty promises and pretending that bugs don't exist. It lets me know that it's not ready for me to join even though I'm pretty interested in the game."  

"what you see is what you get. They aren't spending dev hours to make a pretty trailer. They're spending those hours to make a game. The pre-alpha has been pretty rough (I started in 1.1) but they are making improvements. Test 1.1 from Day 1 to the end saw huge performance and graphical increases."  

"This game is the most professional Early Access production I've ever seen, with really great progress at every update. You're talking out your arse my friend."  

"Let's try to not judge till they reach beta. Pre-alpha means they probably have 50% of the game roughed out in the project."  

"I think it looks pretty good for an alpha.  Realism is not for everybody either.  Also there isn't just one audience for games, the game that held and still holds the largest audience is cartoony"   

"It looks pretty good for pre-alpha. I can't help but compare this to Camelot Unchained. Crowfall looks flashier, but CU seems more ambitious and deeper."  

"Nice. That looks fun If it was GW2, there would be no one in the keep defending, and there would be a 50+ man zerg attacking and capping it in under 2 min If it was ESO, everyone would be getting 20 FPS until the server crashed. Glad this seems to be different, lets hope it stays as fun as it looks."

 

 

 

I've read a couple very good suggestions in that thread, here's what I think could be done for the next trailer:

  • recording from a third-person normal perspective: animations, models, VFX generally look better
  • using itsZiz's or Zybak's computer to ensure decent frame rate  :D
  • make some longer sequences before transition: players running together in a direction sometimes look just as epic as fighting
  • get the movement animations for melee attacks ready asap, nobody likes to watch characters skating
  • the armors look awesome imo, but some archetypes look really rough (Champion / Legio / Knight) in "cloth" armor: either always have armors on characters or improve the look/get more details (champion face/chest, Knight's woody shield/face, Legio basic armor / body / face model) Not a huge rework, just a little more details to make it look less rough and cartoony. The Confessor and Ranger models / cloth armors are #1 imo.
  • too much AoE /VFX everywhere, at some point all we see are flashy Ranger's telegraphs, catapult projectiles and tornadoes everywhere: maybe tone that down a bit

Anyway overall I think the trailer was fine and as ACE said it would have received a better reception among indie MMO community. The really major issue was frame rate, and that's what the large majority of criticisms were about. I don't know how it can be fixed, I guess that the programmers already are working on it, maybe they need additional help though, maybe getting advice from other Unity MMO projects like Gloria Victis, or multiplayer Unity games like Rust or Shroud of the Avatar... That's like the most crucial thing to focus on right now, and ACE really has to find a solution, no matter what.

 

Meanwhile the trailer got +25,000 views in less than 24 hours :P

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Cherry picking some of the positive comments, those ones maybe weren't really visible under the waves :P :

 

 

 

"Honestly I'm more hyped about Camelot Unchained, but I still want to give this a shot. From everything I've seen so far it's worth a try at least." 

"Well i for one was impressed. Looks matter to some degree but the pvp siege gameplay is what drew me here."  

"Anyone played the pre-alpha yet? How is this game? It looks pretty dope, the aesthetic is nice."  

"I'm super excited to give it a shot!"  

"The castle build reminds me alot of Warhammer AOR [...] Yeah :) I miss WAR so much :( Even though it had its flaws.. " 

"Someone liked WvW in GW2 it seems"  

"looks like it has potential to be a good twitch game or even mlg"  

"nice"  

"I'm skeptical, but it looks promising."  

"This MMO has me hoping. A lovely concept and I think it's really needed to fill the void. Too many boring MMOs out there. The concept of this on kickstarter is quite cool. The 'campaign' concept to me seems really cool and comfortable. Seems like a really friendly game to bring in a friend or two at any point and start playing a new campaign. [...]"  

"Yea that's right, I've seen some peeps do a gameplay video with full UI and it looks very enjoyable."  

"It could be caused by the fact that it's pre-alpha. Mafia 3 animations looked awful as well on the first gameplay we saw (from gamescom I think) and it got better"  

"For pre-alpha it doesn't look too bad, but its still looks pretty clunky. They have plenty of time to fix stuff though."  

"Honestly I think it's kind of refreshing that they are just displaying the game in it's current state, and not making empty promises and pretending that bugs don't exist. It lets me know that it's not ready for me to join even though I'm pretty interested in the game."  

"what you see is what you get. They aren't spending dev hours to make a pretty trailer. They're spending those hours to make a game. The pre-alpha has been pretty rough (I started in 1.1) but they are making improvements. Test 1.1 from Day 1 to the end saw huge performance and graphical increases."  

"This game is the most professional Early Access production I've ever seen, with really great progress at every update. You're talking out your arse my friend."  

"Let's try to not judge till they reach beta. Pre-alpha means they probably have 50% of the game roughed out in the project."  

"I think it looks pretty good for an alpha.  Realism is not for everybody either.  Also there isn't just one audience for games, the game that held and still holds the largest audience is cartoony"   

"It looks pretty good for pre-alpha. I can't help but compare this to Camelot Unchained. Crowfall looks flashier, but CU seems more ambitious and deeper."  

"Nice. That looks fun If it was GW2, there would be no one in the keep defending, and there would be a 50+ man zerg attacking and capping it in under 2 min If it was ESO, everyone would be getting 20 FPS until the server crashed. Glad this seems to be different, lets hope it stays as fun as it looks."

 

 

 

I've read a couple very good suggestions in that thread, here's what I think could be done for the next trailer:

  • recording from a third-person normal perspective: animations, models, VFX generally look better
  • using itsZiz's or Zybak's computer to ensure decent frame rate  :D
  • make some longer sequences before transition: players running together in a direction sometimes look just as epic as fighting
  • get the movement animations for melee attacks ready asap, nobody likes to watch characters skating
  • the armors look awesome imo, but some archetypes look really rough (Champion / Legio / Knight) in "cloth" armor: either always have armors on characters or improve the look/get more details (champion face/chest, Knight's woody shield/face, Legio basic armor / body / face model) Not a huge rework, just a little more details to make it look less rough and cartoony. The Confessor and Ranger models / cloth armors are #1 imo.
  • too much AoE /VFX everywhere, at some point all we see are flashy Ranger's telegraphs, catapult projectiles and tornadoes everywhere: maybe tone that down a bit

Anyway overall I think the trailer was fine and as ACE said it would have received a better reception among indie MMO community. The really major issue was frame rate, and that's what the large majority of criticisms were about. I don't know how it can be fixed, I guess that the programmers already are working on it, maybe they need additional help though, maybe getting advice from other Unity MMO projects like Gloria Victis, or multiplayer Unity games like Rust or Shroud of the Avatar... That's like the most crucial thing to focus on right now, and ACE really has to find a solution, no matter what.

 

Meanwhile the trailer got +25,000 views in less than 24 hours :P

 

Yes I think we are just worrying too much. Still good for the game. Comments are just never good. Well done on sifting through the poop and replying to people there.


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On 5/4/2016 at 11:47 AM, courant101 said:

The really major issue was frame rate, and that's what the large majority of criticisms were about. I don't know how it can be fixed, I guess that the programmers already are working on it, maybe they need additional help though, maybe getting advice from other Unity MMO projects like Gloria Victis, or multiplayer Unity games like Rust or Shroud of the Avatar... That's like the most crucial thing to focus on right now, and ACE really has to find a solution, no matter what.

 

N

Edited by Effeh

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There was 1 guy in that video ...

 

Add 75 players in a small area and let's talk smooth ...

 

It's not just about the number of characters, it's rendering the scene at the speed the player is moving, with different effects, water, objects, structures, etc. I'll try to find a video showing multiple players on screen, but as far as I know the performances are acceptable in Rust during PvP.

 

edit: haven't found a video showing 75 players in small area, but here are some interesting videos of Unity games:

- Rust, explosions and wall destruction: https://youtu.be/nysrkIA5WV4?t=2m17s

- Rust, larger battle ~40 players in one team https://youtu.be/-yVSzj19ZWE?t=11m42s

- Rust, structure destruction: https://youtu.be/Q3ukweHK95E?t=2m14s [loud sound careful]

- Gloria Victis, ~30 players fight https://youtu.be/A2RMe1eYwHw?t=2m47s

Edited by courant101

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I've been following RUST since the beginning, they've made MASSIVE strides performance wise in Unity. It's one of the reasons I backed Crowfall in the first place, because I'd already seen that the engine can work smoothly with a few hundred people in an FPS environment (albeit not ALL on screen at the same time, but definitely way more than in SP, and all of them with 6-7 hitboxes which Blair balked at.)

 

I'm sure Crowfall will get there eventually, but it really might be worth it to throw a tub of money at 'em and go ask these guys what they've been doing and see if any of it can be applied here.

 

Agreed and since Rust / Shroud of the Avatar aren't really direct competitors, I wouldn't be surprised that they accept to share a few tips. Creating MMOs with Unity (Rust isn't really a MMO, but still supports lot of players on screen) is something new, so if the studios that experimented with this engine achieved some brilliant stuff, it would indeed be worthful to at least ask if they can help some.

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