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wonderbread

Is friendly fire still happening/is a thing?

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It's really not happening, ACE may owe us friendly fire, but they've proven they're not talented enough to accomplish it. This is just another one of those gimmicks they advertised for attention with no plan or ability to actually deliver it.

 

And it's not a problem to do, there are dozens of simulations that can be used for an action game that would work and thrive with friendly fire, ACE just doesn't have the talent to accomplish them, just look at the nonsense they tried with damage splitting (actually it's damage consolidation), the broken logic they're developing with doesn't even understand the purpose of friendly fire and strategy gaming, how are they going to 4th model their game to implement friendly fire with that kind of ignorance?

 

It doesn't matter at this point, friendly fire isn't an isolated feature that can be activated, it's an overall design that dictates how everything in the game behaves, and ACE doesn't have the talent to achieve it.

 

So just file it under broken promises and ask them to fix something within their grasp, because this one is thoroughly beyond them.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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It doesn't matter at this point, friendly fire isn't an isolated feature that can be activated, it's an overall design that dictates how everything in the game behaves,

This part I agree with. 

 

Did AC promise full on friendly fire? I don't recall that.

 

Has AC now said full on friendly fire wouldn't exist in any campaign? I haven't seen that either.

 

That doesn't mean AC didn't break some promise to you, but I don't read the quotes in this thread to say either of those things (unless I missed a page).

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Friendly fire is literally an isolated feature that can be activated.

That's what I thought. It just sounded like the last poster literally backed the game based on a specific promise by AC to include full friendly fire as a core design feature. I had never understood that (assuming it's true). It made sense to me all along that most CWs would include group-limited (or otherwise limited) friendly fire for most powers, so maybe I didn't pay as much attention to it as I should have. Probably a hold-over from SB in my mind as I viewed CF as a spiritual successor to the game.

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I do think of party-immunity as friendly fire (or at least free-for-all), because if you aren't in a party everyone is attackable (even guildmates). In a guild-based system you can't kill your guildmate even if you want to  :lol: .

 

OK by those standards TERA and Black Desert both have friendly fire which is a ludicrous assertion to make. That's merely a game with no factions, where everybody who isn't a friend is an enemy. I think that's a cool idea but it's not friendly fire. Friendly fire is Darkfall, or standard shooter games, where you have to be careful that you don't accidentally shoot your friend while you're working together to take a guy down. Those are games where even guildies and groupmates can be hit and killed by you. That requires additional tactics to successfully play and also requires combat be designed around that idea to lessen AoE effects and make targeting more precise.

 

I would be ok with what you're suggesting but I think many players who are against friendly fire are thinking of the latter, because that's the standard definition. I also think a lot of these "hardcore" players who really want friendly fire have only played it in tab target games which is a joke because it's pretty hard to accidentally target a friendly in a game like that. The only super duper "I'm hardcore we need friendly fire" people that I can really take seriously are those who've played a lot of Darkfall or anything comparable, and I'm not aware of any big Darkfall folks currently posting. I know some of those old DF players and they're typically the first to admit that a game like Crowfall just would not work and would really actually suck as a true friendly fire game. As much as folks like that love FF, they know better than any that a game truly needs to be designed for that from the ground up.

Edited by Leiloni

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That's what I thought. It just sounded like the last poster literally backed the game based on a specific promise by AC to include full friendly fire as a core design feature. I had never understood that (assuming it's true). It made sense to me all along that most CWs would include group-limited (or otherwise limited) friendly fire for most powers, so maybe I didn't pay as much attention to it as I should have. Probably a hold-over from SB in my mind as I viewed CF as a spiritual successor to the game.

Yeah.. said poster has/had a VERY narrow (misguided) view of what was promised from ACE. They promised FF where possible and to try and make it work, and thats pretty much it. The fact that its not in game yet shouldn't be alarming. I mean crafting isn't in the game yet either and it could be argued that crafting is MUCH more important feature than FF to Crowfall seeing as how the entirety of the games economy depends on it.

Edited by pang

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OK by those standards TERA and Black Desert both have friendly fire which is a ludicrous assertion to make. That's merely a game with no factions, where everybody who isn't a friend is an enemy. I think that's a cool idea but it's not friendly fire. Friendly fire is Darkfall, or standard shooter games, where you have to be careful that you don't accidentally shoot your friend while you're working together to take a guy down. Those are games where even guildies and groupmates can be hit and killed by you. That requires additional tactics to successfully play and also requires combat be designed around that idea to lessen AoE effects and make targeting more precise.

 

I would be ok with what you're suggesting but I think many players who are against friendly fire are thinking of the latter, because that's the standard definition. I also think a lot of these "hardcore" players who really want friendly fire have only played it in tab target games which is a joke because it's pretty hard to accidentally target a friendly in a game like that. The only super duper "I'm hardcore we need friendly fire" people that I can really take seriously are those who've played a lot of Darkfall or anything comparable, and I'm not aware of any big Darkfall folks currently posting. I know some of those old DF players and they're typically the first to admit that a game like Crowfall just would not work and would really actually suck as a true friendly fire game. As much as folks like that love FF, they know better than any that a game truly needs to be designed for that from the ground up.

 

So a modified friendly fire-esque option?  I don't see why this couldn't work.  There could be a spectrum, as suggest earlier, from faction safe campaigns in God's Reach, to true FF in certain Dregs campaigns. 


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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Bunch of MMO players disputing the depth of friendly fire, dem private definitions >.>

What's your experience with friendly fire? 

 

Mine goes from top level rts play (starcraft), teams and 1v1 (things like psionic storm) to professional 5v5 FPS play... (Very easy to compare the difference between FF and not between competitive play and casual play) ...

 

To FFA mmo pvp...

 

How about you?

 

Friendly fire boils down to understanding whether casting a spell on a designated area helps or harms your cause more... It's really that simple, people that have trouble handling the logistics and coordinating around it just need to get better if they want to flourish in a hardcore environment.  Those that think it is too much can go play on other rulesets but they shouldn't delude themselves into thinking it can't be done. 

 

If Na'vi can coordinate pop flashes into molotovs into exact 3 hop bunny hops past the molotov into another pop flash to out peak an awper with an ak... then I think you can handle not aoeing your teammates. 

 

If ACE trashes the FF idea it will be similar to riot games refusing to add sandbox mode for the sole reason of casuals feeling more inadequate if hardcore players have further ways to distinguish themselves.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Complex problems requiring thoughtful solutions = More challenging game play = Deeper, richer and more satisfying strategic element to the game. Hardcore pvpers want strategically rich battles because they're harder (that's why they're called Hardcore), Casuals don't want friendly fire because it makes the game more challenging and they're interested in a casual experience.

 

The 17th and 18th century of warfare in the world best demonstrates how the threat of friendly fire impacts tactical decisions by being one of the few eras where we see that rare hybrid of long-range fights (muskets, cannons) combined with infantry (bayonet) and cavalry melee charges. If cavalry hit the side of a battalion, the defenders couldn't just all turn their cannons on the cavalry -- they'd be just as likely to decimate their own forces as the enemy cavalry. 

 

That means you have to pre-plan for cavalry charges, or else the enemy gets a serious advantage by pushing into your ranks, effectively splitting up your forces. Darkfall gives us the best recent demonstration of this: a melee push by cavalry means the field-AOEs stop, it means the long range magic has stopped -- now you have to deal with hand-to-hand and things get a magnitude more difficult and messy.

 

Without friendly-fire, all you have to do is spam all your aoes and literally blob anyone who pushes melee. 

 

The same thing happened to ESO and Archeage because they had no friendly fire: you had a mega sh**-ton of ranged classes trading volleys. If anyone was dumb enough to charge melee, they got swatted down in seconds because everyone in the group could turn on a dime and unload on them without their friendlies getting hit. 

 

If they dont add and start balancing around friendly-fire, we won't just see pure blob tactics. We'll eventually see pure ranged blob tactics, and all melee classes will fall by the wayside in place of field-aoes and Deathstar focus-fires.

 

The problem with Archeage wasn't the lack of friendly fire. lolololol.

 

It was . . . well . . . everything else. Heh-heh.

 

The short version is:  Gear scaling, and a completely gear/stat dominant character paradigm coupled with a p2w conduit, etc.

 

This, thankfully, won't be the case in CF.

 

AoEs are a valid sticking point, one way or another in the discussion.

 

However, relative to "focus fire" and melee just getting swatted by ranged . . . isn't CF going to foregoe tab-targetting?  Isn't it going to be a point-and-shoot model?

Edited by Bramble

“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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I agree with this, my point about the true free for all FF was to make a point to Vucar that suggested only casuals would not want FF and hardcores wanted FF, a true hardcore would push for FFA with his logic.

Where did I say hardcore pvpers wanted this ludicrous "semi-FF" i'm hearing about?

 

The concept of friendly fire as being anything but "true FFA friendly fire" is alien to me, and never occurred to me even to specify it. 

 

To the posters who claim FF would never work in Crowfall right now - you are absolutely correct, and that is why it is so dire they add it in before they compound their mistakes even more.

 

You can't clean your room if the lights are off. You can probably get your room to a level of "walkable without tripping", but you won't really know how your room looks unless you turn the lights on and start actually cleaning. 


aka honeybear

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The problem with Archeage wasn't the lack of friendly fire. lolololol.

 

It was . . . well . . . everything else. Heh-heh.

 

The short version is:  Gear scaling, and a completely gear/stat dominant character paradigm coupled with a p2w conduit, etc.

 

This, thankfully, won't be the case in CF.

 

AoEs are a valid sticking point, one way or another in the discussion.

 

However, relative to "focus fire" and melee just getting swatted by ranged . . . isn't CF going to foregoe tab-targetting?  Isn't it going to be a point-and-shoot model?

My post had nothing to do with "what was wrong with Archeage".

 

I used Archeage as an example of how mediocre pvp becomes when ranged-blob volleys is the meta.

 

Who cares if its point-and-shoot or tab target when the result is the same? Right now, five confessors on the same side could ball up, spam their pulsing fire-nova attack along with their flamethrower (I don't have the real names memorized) and melt most people that push melee on them; meanwhile none of them will get hurt by the other throwing fire in their face.

 

Its only going to get worse as we get more AoE attacks like these


aka honeybear

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I'm not sure how someone is narrow minded when they grab a promise from the FAQ:

 

 

Wherever possible, yes -- but we have to make sure that this is balanced. Some rules sets (like the infected worlds, which are Faction based) divide players automatically into teams. We have to make sure that players can't join teams specifically to take advantage of friendly fire to grief their own "teammates."

Our plan is to try and apply debuffs to players for doing damage to or killing their teammates (the gods curse you for your incompetence). If this proves not to be a good enough deterrent, however, we may have to turn friendly fire off for particular Campaign worlds.

http://crowfall.com/faq/physics/

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Friendly fire should be easy enough to implement as ALL that has to be done is use the orginal designs for the DREGS.

 

DREGS = 1 verse EVERYONE no team/guild/alliances. 

 

Yes you could work together with others in the game mode with your guild but it should not allow grouping/raids. Everyone is solo and everyone is red. Whenever someone wants they can kill you even if it is your guildy.

 

You can go in with your guild together to "TRY" and work together but in the end you probably will have a lot of "friendly deaths" and with full looting/partial looting this will turn really nasty and destroy a lot of guilds. The drama this mode would create would be off the chart! This mode would really show you who your true friends are.

 

I really hope they do not ditch this mode as it is the ultimate drama mode as you will lose years of friendships over this and the QQ's will be insane.


Check out my youtube channel for testing gameplay https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCp-AgZ6mHOVObusemDVEXoA

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Friendly fire should be easy enough to implement as ALL that has to be done is use the orginal designs for the DREGS.

 

DREGS = 1 verse EVERYONE no team/guild/alliances. 

 

Yes you could work together with others in the game mode with your guild but it should not allow grouping/raids. Everyone is solo and everyone is red. Whenever someone wants they can kill you even if it is your guildy.

 

You can go in with your guild together to "TRY" and work together but in the end you probably will have a lot of "friendly deaths" and with full looting/partial looting this will turn really nasty and destroy a lot of guilds. The drama this mode would create would be off the chart! This mode would really show you who your true friends are.

 

I really hope they do not ditch this mode as it is the ultimate drama mode as you will lose years of friendships over this and the QQ's will be insane.

 

stahp

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What's your experience with friendly fire?

 

Mine goes from top level rts play (starcraft), teams and 1v1 (things like psionic storm) to professional 5v5 FPS play... (Very easy to compare the difference between FF and not between competitive play and casual play) ...

 

.

I think that's where most of us have our experience with friendly fire.

 

I would expect that any one, no matter how belligerent about their own ideas, would agree that a battle with hundreds of players on the screen at the same time (comprised of 2 guilds) is considerably different then any of those things described above.

 

I also think that the characterization of limited friendly fire as "ludicrous" is itself fairly ludicrous. It definitely works and works fine. It worked in Shadowbane (yes, a primarily tab targeted game) and it's worked in most other games that have attempted this scale of combat. A few folks seem to not like it, but the idea that it's ludicrous does more of a disservice to the friendly-fire argument that it does to help the argument.

 

This from a guy who thinks it might be fun to try full on friendly fire in a rule set or two, but is trying to keep an open mind all around.

Edited by coolwaters

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I think that's where most of us have our experience with friendly fire.

 

I would expect that any one, no matter how belligerent about their own ideas, would agree that a battle with hundreds of players on the screen at the same time (comprised of 2 guilds) is considerably different then any of those things described above.

 

I also think that the characterization of limited friendly fire as "ludicrous" is itself fairly ludicrous. It definitely works and works fine. It worked in Shadowbane (yes, a primarily tab targeted game) and it's worked in most other games that have attempted this scale of combat. A few folks seem to not like it, but the idea that it's ludicrous does more of a disservice to the friendly-fire argument that it does to help the argument.

 

This from a guy who thinks it might be fun to try full on friendly fire in a rule set or two, but is trying to keep an open mind all around.

It's not really that different in principle... just the degree of organization and coordination required changes.  The level of coordination always diminishes to some degree the more players you add... but that just further encourages really top notch groups to excel and lets the scrubs burn each other to death.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I see a lot of mechanics discussion about FF.

 

One of ACE's core points about their need to carefully evaluate FF and how it's deployed relates to impact from griefing maneuvers. Pure guesswork on my part, but I'd imagine that's one of the "fly's in the soup" they are forced to spoon around.


“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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“Letting your customers set your standards is a dangerous game, because the race to the bottom is pretty easy to win. Setting your own standards--and living up to them--is a better way to profit. Not to mention a better way to make your day worth all the effort you put into it." - Seth Godin

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I think that would make the game very difficult.  I believe friendly fire would result in many, if not all, range classes unplayable.  This isn't Rainbow Six Siege where it is needed to make the game intense. 

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