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Is friendly fire still happening/is a thing?


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What, are rangers and confessors currently played by the less skilled players in Crowfall? Because all I hear is "friendly fire is a dumb idea" usually right next to "then i can't play a ranger or confessor!"

 

Has nothing to do with that, and everything to do with how projectiles work in this game. In DFO you had a lot more options to avoid getting hit in FF, in fact I can't really remember a time when FF was a problem for me (or people I played with) in DFO. I'm all for FF, but it needs to be done right, and it can't mean playing certain archetypes (like the confessor, which are HEAVY aoe based) will be super frustrating (or barely viable). That doesn't sound like fun to me.

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This question was asked on the AMA and it got skipped.   I get the feeling they aren't ready to answer this yet.    Should've been called "Ask me anything except about friendly fire".    Link: h

I agree with this, "skill" should be more knowledge oriented. "What should I do in this given situation". If they stun you, break it. If they throw a projectile at you, dodge it. If they collapse on y

i don't like FF in general because it isn't fun to me and a lot people will abuse it by trolling and destroying your game. But i would accept it in a seperate campaign with FF in the ruleset. Everyone

A game where 2 guys with sticks can't beat the ever loving poorly made socks out of a single guy without smacking one another in the head repeatedly sounds ridiculous to me.

 

But ya, that's about the depth of the PvP in Darkfall. I'm hoping we get a lot more than that.

 

So are you saying there should never be a 2v1 where the 1 can win?

 

Or are you saying you only want to see combat where two guys can chain-stun 1 guy into the ground until hes dead? 

 

Because according to you, not being able to ensure at least one of these is "ridiculous".

 

Individuals on the street get jumped by groups all the time in real life and win, go look up youtube vids -- there's dozens of them. Friendly fire exists in real life and yet somehow, real life is not "ridiculous" when one guy beats up four.

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I'm sure it will be tested, and I'm sure they will ask for feedback and do whatever seems to be the most popular. I just think it's not the best of ideas to do it right now because of how clunky and craptastic the current combat model is. Now with that said, maybe they already are testing it internally and have kept quiet about it because it's quite apparent that it's a touchy subject. If they are and they came out and said "hey were testing it internally" and then realized they had to many issues and had to either put it off or not do it at all, a lot of you would start screaming "but but but, you said you were testing internally therefore it should be set in stone that it will be in game and further more available to test in 5 minutes".

 

I don't think they will neglect putting it in, there appears to be quite the demand for it in one version or another. I just hope they get combat in general flushed out and fun before they start adding layers to what is imo a system that lacks fun.

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A game where 2 guys with sticks can't beat the ever loving poorly made socks out of a single guy without smacking one another in the head repeatedly sounds ridiculous to me.

 

But ya, that's about the depth of the PvP in Darkfall. I'm hoping we get a lot more than that.

 

Well you know what they say, if you're bad at something you probably can't understand the depth of it. Two guys trying to melee down one should hit each other at least a couple of times, if they're not using very small weapons or / and they're using AOEs.

 

The team that somehow doesn't will indeed be better.... High ceiling skill, what a horrible thing!

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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I think my only opposition to full FF is that all the melee attacks are currently AoE cones from what I can tell, and not terribly small ones. I'm perfectly OK with dodging out of the way and having people unintentionally smash each other - sounds fun- but my character should also be able to melee someone without it going 5 feet behind them after connecting and hitting a friendly. Seems like a solvable problem - stop after hitting first character in the arc if not an AoE, but without that I'm not sure it's as great an experience.

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Well you know what they say, if you're bad at something you probably can't understand the depth of it. Two guys trying to melee down one should hit each other at least a couple of times, if they're not using very small weapons or / and they're using AOEs.

The team that somehow doesn't will indeed be better.... High ceiling skill, what a horrible thing!

In order for you to NOT accidentally cleave your ally, you would have to be apart from them (good luck blocking an opening like that) or cleave AoEs have to be really small, but then you would hardly ever cleave anything unless your opponents were shoulder to shoulder with each other (which is practically gg 1v2)

 

I don't think anyone is arguing against having a high skill ceiling, but if FF gets in the way of defending PoIs and Strongholds, then it is unnecessary.

Edited by coolster50

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This question was asked on the AMA and it got skipped.

 

I get the feeling they aren't ready to answer this yet. 

 

Should've been called "Ask me anything except about friendly fire". 

 

Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/4i09af/crowfallartcraft_ama_with_ace_founders_coleman/d2tx5o8

Edited by blazzen

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The same thing happened to ESO and Archeage because they had no friendly fire: you had a mega sh**-ton of ranged classes trading volleys. If anyone was dumb enough to charge melee, they got swatted down in seconds because everyone in the group could turn on a dime and unload on them without their friendlies getting hit. 

 

If they dont add and start balancing around friendly-fire, we won't just see pure blob tactics. We'll eventually see pure ranged blob tactics, and all melee classes will fall by the wayside in place of field-aoes and Deathstar focus-fires.

 

It wasn't because of a lack of friendly fire that started the blob tactics. Its was the caps on aoe damage and in guild wars 2 the lack of caps on aoe healing fields. They blobbed up because they could fit more targets in an area than you could damage so at best you would only kill a couple and they were back up before you could kill enough to matter.

 

Friendly fire would have stopped that but the lack of friendly fire wasn't the real reason they blobbed up in the first place.

 

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So are you saying there should never be a 2v1 where the 1 can win?

 

Or are you saying you only want to see combat where two guys can chain-stun 1 guy into the ground until hes dead? 

 

I don't think he was saying either of those things.

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Well you know what they say, if you're bad at something you probably can't understand the depth of it. Two guys trying to melee down one should hit each other at least a couple of times, if they're not using very small weapons or / and they're using AOEs.

 

The team that somehow doesn't will indeed be better.... High ceiling skill, what a horrible thing!

What I'm saying is that I find no rational reason that 2 melee attackers - whether in real life or in a game - would have any issue at all in avoiding doing meaningful damage to one another. 

 

They aren't custard blind, presumably.

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Assume for a second that we try FF with the current combat and it isn't fun or viable (I think that's likely). I think there may nonetheless be an opportunity to use a lot of pure FF with individual abilities. More interesting to me is the possibility of a "curse" type ability that could "turn on" friendly fire for the target for a certain time frame.

 

i.e. for the next 30 seconds, unless dispelled, Fessor does damage to all targets (or even only damages friendly targets).

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From my perspective, the issue is not one of “Friendly Fire”, but rather one around “Groups”.

 

I think that the notion of a fixed five person group makes a lot of sense in games like WoW where you are working to clear PVE content that is being specifically designed to challenge a 5 player party with one tank, one healer, and three DPS.  This concept seems very arbitrary in a game like Crowfall which is based around random PVP encounters.  I expect that the set of players that I am going to want to pay attention to is going to vary dramatically, both wrt the the number of players and the reason that I am tracking them.

 

I say get rid of groups /parties altogether.  Treat everyone out there identically.

 

If you want to be able to tell who is on “your” side, make damn well sure that everyone is wearing the same color clothing or wearing banners or some such.  (You shouldn’t be relying on the program to give you perfect information about who your friends are and who your enemies are).

 

There’s shouldn’t be any notion of “friendly fire” versus “non friendly fire”.  Everyone is a potential target.

 

If someone in your “guild” is griefing you, KILLL THEM!  Take their stuff!  Make sure that they regret ever screwing with you!  (And, if some random noob that no one has ever heard of comes along and wants to join your guild, you might want to give a second thought to letting him join or trusting him with the guild code books)

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From my perspective, the issue is not one of “Friendly Fire”, but rather one around “Groups”.

 

I think that the notion of a fixed five person group makes a lot of sense in games like WoW where you are working to clear PVE content that is being specifically designed to challenge a 5 player party with one tank, one healer, and three DPS.  This concept seems very arbitrary in a game like Crowfall which is based around random PVP encounters.  I expect that the set of players that I am going to want to pay attention to is going to vary dramatically, both wrt the the number of players and the reason that I am tracking them.

 

I say get rid of groups /parties altogether.  Treat everyone out there identically.

 

If you want to be able to tell who is on “your” side, make damn well sure that everyone is wearing the same color clothing or wearing banners or some such.  (You shouldn’t be relying on the program to give you perfect information about who your friends are and who your enemies are).

 

There’s shouldn’t be any notion of “friendly fire” versus “non friendly fire”.  Everyone is a potential target.

 

If someone in your “guild” is griefing you, KILLL THEM!  Take their stuff!  Make sure that they regret ever screwing with you!  (And, if some random noob that no one has ever heard of comes along and wants to join your guild, you might want to give a second thought to letting him join or trusting him with the guild code books)

Wait.

 

Be careful with who you invite into your groups or guilds?

 

Terminate with extreme prejudice when someone tries to grief you, your friends or your faction?

 

That's stupid, lets just go back to complaining about the risks of FF!

aka honeybear

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From my perspective, the issue is not one of “Friendly Fire”, but rather one around “Groups”.

 

I think that the notion of a fixed five person group makes a lot of sense in games like WoW where you are working to clear PVE content that is being specifically designed to challenge a 5 player party with one tank, one healer, and three DPS.  This concept seems very arbitrary in a game like Crowfall which is based around random PVP encounters.  I expect that the set of players that I am going to want to pay attention to is going to vary dramatically, both wrt the the number of players and the reason that I am tracking them.

 

I say get rid of groups /parties altogether.  Treat everyone out there identically.

 

If you want to be able to tell who is on “your” side, make damn well sure that everyone is wearing the same color clothing or wearing banners or some such.  (You shouldn’t be relying on the program to give you perfect information about who your friends are and who your enemies are).

 

There’s shouldn’t be any notion of “friendly fire” versus “non friendly fire”.  Everyone is a potential target.

 

If someone in your “guild” is griefing you, KILLL THEM!  Take their stuff!  Make sure that they regret ever screwing with you!  (And, if some random noob that no one has ever heard of comes along and wants to join your guild, you might want to give a second thought to letting him join or trusting him with the guild code books)

 

Party and raid groups are important in PvP too simply because it's an effective organizational tool. I can't imagine even suggesting getting rid of them let alone actually doing it. Even in a small 5 man party with your guildies grouping up is much better and more effective than not grouping. I just also find it rather strange that someone who supposedly has done a lot of PvP in other games don't see how useful grouping mechanics are in PvP content. I mean it's one thing to say "I wanna get rid of useful stuff because I'm hardcore rawwr", but you seem to not understand the benefits at all.

 

In terms of seeing whose on your side, I don't know why that's even a discussion. That's just MMO basics. Do what every other game does and assign different colors to nameplates of people based on if they're in your guild, party, raid, faction, or an enemy. For multi faction rulesets, assign small faction icons next to their name like ESO so you can differentiate between enemies. For guilds, allow guilds to upload their own small guild logo that will appear next to their guild in the nameplate (aka TERA, BDO) - this is also a much better way to differentiate between enemy guilds since pictures are easier to differentiate and see than text, and people like personalizing their guilds. You should be able to easily look at a nameplate and find out everything you need to know about another player. And anyone who thinks that's too much clutter shouldn't be playing MMO's.

Edited by Leiloni
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What people can do and what they feel like doing are two different things. At the end of the day it comes down to what people find fun, not their skill level.

 

What most of you can do is get on my level but what you feel like doing is bandwagoning and liking each other's posts. At the end of the day, it comes down to what people find easy, not their actual capability.

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Party and raid groups are important in PvP too simply because it's an effective organizational tool. I can't imagine even suggesting getting rid of them let alone actually doing it. Even in a small 5 man party with your guildies grouping up is much better and more effective than not grouping. I just also find it rather strange that someone who supposedly has done a lot of PvP in other games don't see how useful grouping mechanics are in PvP content. I mean it's one thing to say "I wanna get rid of useful stuff because I'm hardcore rawwr", but you seem to not understand the benefits at all.

 

In terms of seeing whose on your side, I don't know why that's even a discussion. That's just MMO basics. Do what every other game does and assign different colors to nameplates of people based on if they're in your guild, party, raid, faction, or an enemy. For multi faction rulesets, assign small faction icons next to their name like ESO so you can differentiate between enemies. For guilds, allow guilds to upload their own small guild logo that will appear next to their guild in the nameplate (aka TERA, BDO) - this is also a much better way to differentiate between enemy guilds since pictures are easier to differentiate and see than text, and people like personalizing their guilds. You should be able to easily look at a nameplate and find out everything you need to know about another player. And anyone who thinks that's too much clutter shouldn't be playing MMO's.

 

Crowfall is not your standard MMO is breaks a lot of rules and basics. I think he realizes that the easiest way to do FF is to have no parties/raids and make everyone red. You don't have to be in a party to work together as a team.  ALSO the initial plans for the dregs is FREE FOR ALL http://crowfall.com/en/news/forgemaster-world-rules-resources/

Edited by YouTubejasonwivart

Check out my youtube channel for testing gameplay https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCp-AgZ6mHOVObusemDVEXoA

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Crowfall is not your standard MMO is breaks a lot of rules and basics. I think he realizes that the easiest way to do FF is to have no parties/raids and make everyone red. You don't have to be in a party to work together as a team.  ALSO the initial plans for the dregs is FREE FOR ALL

 

You can do FF in parties too, though. So what's the problem? That is why they call it friendly fire.

Edited by Leiloni
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While I disagree with the bunny hopping/twitch playstyle of darkfall and games like it, I do think that if you can fight 5v1 and all 5 players hit each other more than they hit one player, then those 5 deserve to die. In reign of kings, you'll have 5 tardtards run up with pole arms to kill one guy. They end up killing each other because they swing wildly while the skilled pvper is getting headshots on each player. This is even better on less players, 1v2, etc.

 

Right now, noobs are swinging wildly in the hunger dome, running around with pulse aoes, and dumping arrows on their own team. People keep endorsing this playstyle. It's terrible.

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While I disagree with the bunny hopping/twitch playstyle of darkfall and games like it, I do think that if you can fight 5v1 and all 5 players hit each other more than they hit one player, then those 5 deserve to die. In reign of kings, you'll have 5 tardtards run up with pole arms to kill one guy. They end up killing each other because they swing wildly while the skilled pvper is getting headshots on each player. This is even better on less players, 1v2, etc.

 

Right now, noobs are swinging wildly in the hunger dome, running around with pulse aoes, and dumping arrows on their own team. People keep endorsing this playstyle. It's terrible.

 

yes its a bit of a chaotic power fest blob at the moment

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