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Durenthal

Where are all the testers?

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Making the client download a bit more obvious would be a good step towards having more testers, I bet if devs sent out an email saying 'hey, thanks for backing, the client download is here, the next test is tomorrow', a sticky in the testing forum wouldn't hurt either.

 

I just searched for "https://crowfall.com/client" in my email box and found 16 emails from ACE since February with that link in it.


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Playing other games likely GW2 ESO WoW BDO etc.. when beta swings around and more classes are out you will see more testers.  Ill probably just test once or twice until beta, does not mean I'm not pumped for Crowfall its just I have limited time and ESO or GW2 PvP is fun use of it.  

 

Alot of people do this and its a good thing because if Crowfall turns out to be decent guild mates in ESO and GW2 will come over to Crowfall with me.

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Honestly, as soon as I heard Todd's initial vision for the game, early testing access was by far the largest reason I backed at Sapphire. Being part of the process was very important to me. I'll be testing whether I find it fun or not (I do).

 

 

I agree 100 %


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I haven't been in a test in many months because quite frankly the combat was absolute poorly made socks.  Not only that, but we played the same client release for well over a month.  Hard to justify logging on to test if they're not making changes.  Part of the reason for poor combat can be attributed to alpha but I feel another part of it is poor combat design by the devs.  I think they started with a very static combat design vision which in practice turned out to be quite bad and not very fun.  I hope they saw the error of their initial thinking and are willing to change combat significantly.  Obviously combat will improve with time, the question is, will it improve enough?  Once things are a bit more fleshed out I'll probably test a bit more.

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Could be argued that by continuing to test and give feedback you'd be helping to make that game you are waiting for to come about. Instead of doing nothing and waiting you're pretty much relying on others to make the game for you who may or may not agree with your pov on the direction of the game.

 

Personally as someone who is also vested in this project I'd rather take a proactive approach.

 

I don't disagree, but I am relying on others to make the game, the devs.

 

While it is nice that they accept our feedback, it is their vision/design at the end of the day. So far it seems like they've listened to or tried to cater to folks that don't exactly have the same pov as myself and there isn't much I can do about that.

 

While I like the snap test idea, the testing system/style isn't really for me at this time. Maybe when they have some sort of campaign taking shape I'll feel more reason to "test" or if they focus on particulars instead of throwing a bunch of stuff in and having us run through something that I hope doesn't resemble the actual game.

 

Combat is my biggest concern and it still needs work in my opinion. Testing the same mechanics over and over isn't going to change my opinion if it is what they have planned as their intended model. Seems like they realized after a lot of not so positive feedback that it needed work, but how far they will or can go is unknown.

 

After playing Black Desert for a bit, it's really hard to enjoy what they have even with it being pre-pre-super alpha. At some point what we see will be close to "finished" and no longer can be excused away as placeholder, alpha, or whatever. Clearly things will continue to be worked on and polished, but they have to start stamping things as working as intended at some point.

 

Is what it is. If my lack of participation results in less of the game I want, I'll be okay. If I put in X amount of hours and it still turns out to not be what I want, I can't get that time back.

Edited by APE

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After playing Black Desert for a bit, it's really hard to enjoy what they have even with it being pre-pre-super alpha. At some point what we see will be close to "finished" and no longer can be excused away as placeholder, alpha, or whatever. Clearly things will continue to be worked on and polished, but they have to start stamping things as working as intended at some point.

 

Is what it is. If my lack of participation results in less of the game I want, I'll be okay. If I put in X amount of hours and it still turns out to not be what I want, I can't get that time back.

 

In my eyes, playing Black Desert (or any other video game) is a way bigger lost of time than supporting a game in development.  :P

 

I understand what you mean though, not everyone is interested in following closely an open-development project for so long. Your contributed a lot to the community and Crowfall in general, I'm sure many people appreciated it.

Edited by courant101

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i think once they have more archetypes in and get close to no more wipes, the soft launch they mentioned, and people can start investing in characters who will not go away and they add in banes and boons etc and some disciplines, so we all arent playing the same confessor and there is leveling is when you will see large spike of players


May war intone echoes across the cosmic thrall of bones and blood!!! http://www.stormcrowproductions.com

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For me, I've stopped testing as much because I found myself simply getting burned out on combat for the last several months of testing. I still come out and test every now and then, so I'm not completely gone, but I think for a lot of us who've been around since graybox hungerdome days probably feel the same way. I think when combat gets to an agreeable state to most people and ACE moves on Campaigns and Eks, that's when a lot of the old testers will be around more. 

 

I can only speak for myself, but I always felt the testing schedule was too saturated with not too many changes often. It will be better to reduce the schedule, but make substantial changes each period.

Edited by purplestreak

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In my eyes, playing Black Desert (or any other video game) is a way bigger lost of time than supporting a game in development.  :P

 

I understand what you mean though, few are interested in following closely an open-development project for so long. Your contributed a lot to the community and Crowfall in general, I'm sure many people appreciated it.

 

Fixed that for you  :ph34r:

 

I still support them, just not going to give them any more money and at this point my time is better spent elsewhere as chatting on a forum is not gaming to me.

 

The hype train runs out of steam when reality kicks in and we see that it is a long process with lots of bumps along the way.

 

Looking at post activity and threads like this, clearly many share my thoughts.

 

Maybe the market in general isn't ready for such an early/open development cycle?

 

Have companies like Blizzard with a black box going bust and SOE/Daybreak with an attempt to be open calling it quits.

 

While 10 million signed up to play Overwatch (which is great). Maybe mmorpgs simply can't compete.

 

Instead of everyone trying to copy WoW or whatever, now everyone is trying to be unique while working with tiny budgets and teams. Maybe there are enough talented folks and fans to support them to see a few of these projects release and have some success, but I'm not holding my breath.

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Im just burnt out on the combat right now.

 

Ill check back in on it once it makes some more noticeable progress but right now it doesn't feel like much progress is being made so ill just wait and give them time to work it out.

 

Plus the test times are really bad for people with jobs through the week, there have been a lot of pre 5 PM east coast tests, and a lot of NA seems to be employed.


 

Rage Quit

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Maybe the market in general isn't ready for such an early/open development cycle?

 

Have companies like Blizzard with a black box going bust and SOE/Daybreak with an attempt to be open calling it quits.

 

While 10 million signed up to play Overwatch (which is great). Maybe mmorpgs simply can't compete.

 

Instead of everyone trying to copy WoW or whatever, now everyone is trying to be unique while working with tiny budgets and teams. Maybe there are enough talented folks and fans to support them to see a few of these projects release and have some success, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

Having the MMO population scattered across a multitude of small projects surely doesn't help to get the "massive" number of players required to make those games viable. I expect most of the current crowdfunded projects to have lot of trouble getting a sufficient playerbase to stay afloat especially for the studios based in the US and western Europe where the operation costs are pretty high.

 

I still think that the MMO is the most realistic simulation (in term of systems) available and the genre that is the most promising for the years to come. I got mixed feelings about crowdfunding and open-development. So far all what I've seen are delays, effort & money spent to please the community with constant communication, outreach, videos, translation, adapting the game based on the community's recommendations ... It's not necessarily the case for CF, but if we check all those recent MMO projects, Star Citizen, Shroud of the Avatar, Camelot Unchained, they all seem to suffer from that. Extreme delays, games are in alpha years after the estimated date.

 

I guess it's not just black and white, but sometimes I feel like the whole crowdfunding thing is a big joke. But then I consider the alternative, those games that feel like they've no soul, encouraging us to perform repetitive tasks, grind and quests, over and over again like rats getting their fix of sugar water, displaying AAA graphics quality to compensate for how fade and void the universe is. Ok that's getting a bit depressing.  :P

 

We'll see how things go, I believe that with CF we may be pleasantly surprised. ^^

Edited by courant101

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Fixed that for you  :ph34r:

 

I still support them, just not going to give them any more money and at this point my time is better spent elsewhere as chatting on a forum is not gaming to me.

 

The hype train runs out of steam when reality kicks in and we see that it is a long process with lots of bumps along the way.

 

Looking at post activity and threads like this, clearly many share my thoughts.

 

1) Maybe the market in general isn't ready for such an early/open development cycle?

 

2) Have companies like Blizzard with a black box going bust and SOE/Daybreak with an attempt to be open calling it quits.

 

3) While 10 million signed up to play Overwatch (which is great). Maybe mmorpgs simply can't compete.

 

4) Instead of everyone trying to copy WoW or whatever, now everyone is trying to be unique while working with tiny budgets and teams. Maybe there are enough talented folks and fans to support them to see a few of these projects release and have some success, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

I think some points here need additional explanation/discussion.

 

1) Yes it is ready imo. I think a game can profit greatly of such an open community development approach, if done right, not like in Shroud of the Avatar.

 

2) Blizzard was with Project Titan totally seperated/closed to the public audience and failed massive. SOE/Daybreak had a very open approach in the beginning, much like Crowfall/ACE, but they got sold out by Sony, so the game was going to fail.

 

3) If Overwatch got 10 million sign ups, what do you think how many sign ups a new MMO from Blizzard would have gotten?! You know how many people would sign up for that? Even more than 10 million.

 

4) This is because the big companys have stopped making new MMOs, because its too risky and they dont got ideas or ambition so far. So because the big ones have stopped making MMOs, now much more light shines on smaller Indie MMOs, having crowdfunding avaiiable today,  many people know that right now is the time if they ever want to make an MMO, so many Indie MMOs are popping up or getting recognized much more as an effect of these circumstances.

I agree that its problematic, that there are so many small Indie MMO projects with small budgets and resources, so they most often arent able to make the MMO they are aiming for. I think it could be better if all these small MMO Indie Dev teams would start to collaborate much more, to which degree and way they see fit, but all of them on their own alone trying to achieve great ambitioned goals, is almost bound to fail, if they arent Star Citizen.

 

In my eyes, playing Black Desert (or any other video game) is a way bigger lost of time than supporting a game in development.  :P

 

I understand what you mean though, not everyone is interested in following closely an open-development project for so long. Your contributed a lot to the community and Crowfall in general, I'm sure many people appreciated it.

 

Yes, because Black Desert wont ever be the real MMO I am hoping for, but Crowfall could be it, because its still getting made, and got potential. But Black Desert is done already.

 

Having the MMO population scattered across a multitude of small projects surely doesn't help to get the "massive" number of players required to make those games viable. I expect most of the current crowdfunded projects to have lot of trouble getting a sufficient playerbase to stay afloat especially for the studios based in the US and western Europe where the operation costs are pretty high.

 

1) I still think that the MMO is the most realistic simulation (in term of systems) available and the genre that is the most promising for the years to come. I got mixed feelings about crowdfunding and open-development. So far all what I've seen are delays, effort & money spent to please the community with constant communication, outreach, videos, translation, adapting the game based on the community's recommendations ... It's not necessarily the case for CF, but if we check all those recent MMO projects, Star Citizen, Shroud of the Avatar, Camelot Unchained, they all seem to suffer from that. Extreme delays, games are in alpha years after the estimated date.

 

I guess it's not just black and white, but sometimes I feel like the whole crowdfunding thing is a big joke. But then I consider the alternative, those games that feel like they've no soul, encouraging us to perform repetitive tasks, grind and quests, over and over again like rats getting their fix of sugar water, displaying AAA graphics quality to compensate for how fade and void the universe is. Ok that's getting a bit depressing.  :P

 

We'll see how things go, I believe that with CF we may be pleasantly surprised. ^^

 

1) Absolutely, MMOs are the most complex game projects, and they are this complex because they are the only ones enabling you to get an experience no other genre could ever give to you. MMOs are by far the most impressive and interesting genre there is, but that also makes them complex and relative expensive. But they are the only ones, the ones showing the world what is possible, the ones encouraging people to use their imagination, they are the ones who really got magic with them. When they started all to just clone WoW, many of that magic was lost during the time after WoW.

But with recent projects such as Star Citizen or Everquest Next, you were able too feel that magic again. And the magic will come back and be stronger than any time before, because by now almost all the technical issues from the past to make a real impressive MMO, which is able to do all the stuff you wished for, arent a problem anymore.

If all the MMO dev teams, if they would all stick together and create one giant MMO, damn this giant/titan would be amazing, using all the technology available today, there wouldnt be nothing this game wouldnt be capable of.

So dont worry, mobile games surely arent the future of gaming, for sure not, all the capitalistic companys are just bad influenced and chasing the money in the totally wrong way, because they got no sense for/of gaming. A functional, really impressive MMO with a fair monetization model would be the best money maker you could wish for.

 

That game releases get delayed isnt really something new, we should all be used to it since a long time.

Indie projects for sure are even more difficult to plan, because you have at first wait and see how much money/capital you can raise, from future customers/players or private investors, then estimate how much money you will be getting along the way of development and how much of your ambition/vision of the game you can realize with this, and then build up a company and hire people and stuff.

For Crowfall the ambition/size of the game was pretty clear/defined at the beginning of the crowdfunding campaign already, which helped a lot I bet in many ways.

With Star Citizen things are different. They were achieving much more support than they ever would have thought. And due to the ongoing massive support for the game, the ambition of the game grew and advanced incredible. So that the game they are trying to do now is much more massive than what was promised during the start of the crowdfunding campaign, and so of course this got the release date changed, because it needs much more time to create this. The first years of development of Star Citizen were consisting mostly of building up an international company, to be able to create this game.

Also of course the developers choose a very optimistic release date at the start of their crowdfunding campaign to attract more people to support them, because people are more likely to support a game coming out in 2 years than they would support a game that comes out in 4 years.

 

These times really many people are thinking about MMOs and the momentary state of the MMO genre and its future, just look at all the videos. Many people are having feelings towards this genre, and while they all have more or less different explanations for the current state of the MMO genre,  what unites them all is the inherit desire for an MMO which gives them back the magic they once felt in this genre.

Its really interesting, all these videos of people sharing their thoughts of the state of the MMO genre.

Edited by Urahara

After EverQuest Next is gone, its Star Citizen for me.

 

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I guess it's not just black and white, but sometimes I feel like the whole crowdfunding thing is a big joke. But then I consider the alternative, those games that feel like they've no soul, encouraging us to perform repetitive tasks, grind and quests, over and over again like rats getting their fix of sugar water, displaying AAA graphics quality to compensate for how fade and void the universe is. Ok that's getting a bit depressing.  :P

 

We'll see how things go, I believe that with CF we may be pleasantly surprised. ^^

 

An issue I have or see is ACE or insert new company saying confidently (as they ask for money) that they can pull off a game with X budget-team-timeline and then it not being so simple.

 

I look at the earlier games and see for example for DAOC "Total development costs excluding equipment leases was about $2.5 million and took 18 months with a team of 25 full-time developers."

 

Not going to bother looking up the numbers for UO, EQ, SB, etc but I can't imagine any of them had monster resources either.

 

These games weren't perfect or crazy sophisticated tech wise, but they were games that many still enjoy today in some form and have/had more to show in comparison.

 

I have no clue how long it takes to create such things, but I have to assume that the advances in the last 15+ years have made some things a lot easier/cheaper/faster while others have become more complicated. At some point it should balance I'd hope.

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That game releases get delayed isnt really something new, we should all be used to it since a long time.

Indie projects for sure are even more difficult to plan, because you have at first wait and see how much money/capital you can raise, from future customers/players or private investors, then estimate how much money you will be getting along the way of development and how much of your ambition/vision of the game you can realize with this, and then build up a company and hire people and stuff.

 

The issue I see isn't with the delay itself, it's that some studios seem so comfortable in the state the game is (development) they apparently don't want to move away too fast from it. Let's take Star Citizen as example. They're getting more than a million dollars income every month and a lot of publicity, possibly as much or more than they would get after launch. They've sold an incredibly large number of in-game items and packages I wonder how they'll even get enough money to keep this huge machine alive after it released, considering the gigantic costs of maintenance, updates, development, CS and other expenditures.

 

Different situations but the same outcome appears to slow down projects like SotA, which remained in development for so long while selling for millions of dollars of objects and imo not putting enough effort on the quality of the game itself, or projects like CU where they got sufficient money to stay afloat for so long that they just spend enormous amount of time on non-development related activities (posting on forums, chating with the backers, extremely long and distracting streaming sessions, massive newsletters and weekly updates, maintaining the heavy User Stories page, etc.).

 

The publisher or the lack of money used to be the incentives that push the developers to do their absolute best, with the fear of failing if they lose momentum or focus. Many of them are now just comfortably developing a game, slowly, for years and years, with no obligations to release a quality product nor to meet the deadlines.

 

Here with Crowfall I know there's a Tyrant watching. And to be as successful as it can be, I believe a project needs to have someone who says "We will push a quality product on the market and the moment is now".

Edited by courant101

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Absolutely agree. You are right.

Thats why you should only support crowdfunding projects where you got faith and trust into the people, like Gordon mentioned at their crowdfunding campaign.

If you dont trust them that they really wanna do this game and are able to do that, think twice about supporting them.


After EverQuest Next is gone, its Star Citizen for me.

 

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An issue I have or see is ACE or insert new company saying confidently (as they ask for money) that they can pull off a game with X budget-team-timeline and then it not being so simple.

 

I look at the earlier games and see for example for DAOC "Total development costs excluding equipment leases was about $2.5 million and took 18 months with a team of 25 full-time developers."

 

Not going to bother looking up the numbers for UO, EQ, SB, etc but I can't imagine any of them had monster resources either.

 

These games weren't perfect or crazy sophisticated tech wise, but they were games that many still enjoy today in some form and have/had more to show in comparison.

 

I have no clue how long it takes to create such things, but I have to assume that the advances in the last 15+ years have made some things a lot easier/cheaper/faster while others have become more complicated. At some point it should balance I'd hope.

 

If some people were to develop the exact same game as DAoC today (same graphics, systems, server tech, etc.) I'm pretty sure that a studio could achieve it in less time that it took the team originally in early 2000's, but the cost would probably be a lot larger. If I'm correct, Mythic used to have a shares program (I would have to check, not sure where I read that) that allowed developers to get a % of the revenues after launch, but getting a salary that is under the normal wage for a programmer / artist. That may have helped for the costs. I guess it would be a similar situation with Wolfpack (Shadowbane) or many other games of that time: there were ways to save on the wages, sometimes with developers not even touching a penny until the game is shipped in store. Not sure it would work today, even though CSE if I'm correct still has this kind of royalty program that allows them to cut of salary and they've a volunteering program where they basically ask people to translate stuff and create UI instead of paying for developers.

 

I understand how it's annoying to get told that the game is going to cost about 6 millions thanks to clever techniques to save on tech, servers and development time, only for a year later having more than $7,2M in funding and still getting told that the game will need to get soft launched.

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I understand how it's annoying to get told that the game is going to cost about 6 millions thanks to clever techniques to save on tech, servers and development time, only for a year later having more than $7,2M in funding and still getting told that the game will need to get soft launched.

 

I think its normal for a crowdfunded/open approach developed game to have a soft launch, because you can already enter the game if you want to. And the backers want of course to enter the game early and they want the game released as fast as possible, so of course the developers need to define some sort of base model/module of their game, which are their minimal requirements of what their game should offer. Which they can release earlier than the fully fledged full game, so people can have fun wih their product years earlier. Otherwise Star Ctizen would be released in 2021 earliest.


After EverQuest Next is gone, its Star Citizen for me.

 

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I think its normal for a crowdfunded/open approach developed game to have a soft launch, because you can already enter the game if you want to. And the backers want of course to enter the game early and they want the game released as fast as possible, so of course the developers need to define some sort of base model/module of their game, which are their minimal requirements of what their game should offer. Which they can release earlier than the fully fledged full game, so people can have fun wih their product years earlier. Otherwise Star Ctizen would be released in 2021 earliest.

 

Generally I also believe that soft launch would be beneficial for Crowfall, however a fear I have is that some developers will move from development to live operations and less resources will be allocated to "finish" the game. If ACE first priority remains to ship a quality product in reasonable time frame, then I'm all for it. If they become complaisant complacent with the state of the game and rely on "It's only pre-alpha/early access/soft launch!" excuses, then I think it may be detrimental for Crowfall and I'd prefer they revisit their priorities.

Edited by courant101

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