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Durenthal

A quick damage analysis (Knight)

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ACE:

Here's my problem with the Knight's damage output:   You've got multiple damage knobs and you've turned them all way down for the knight.  You have base weapon damage (the 1H+ shield), which does poor damage to start with (I've made some assumptions on base weapon damage since you don't provide those numbers.  My guesses seem pretty close based on the numbers that pop up in game, but they are just educated guesses).  You have the class multiplier (.9 for a knight), and you have the armor modifier (a further .8 for wearing plate to get the mitigation the knight is supposed to have).  Further, the numbers in the powers are crap.

 

 

Let's compare him to the other melee-only class for a sec.  Actually, let's thrown in the healer, too:

 

 

Knight damage vs Champ damage, both in full leather:

 

Knight LMB: 391-529 + 46% wpn dmg, then on next successful hit 534-722 + 63%, then on a third successful hit 751-1016 + 88%

Champ LMB: 744-1006 + 100% then 565-765 +76% then 1236-1672 + 166%

Legio LMB: 551-674 + 70%, then 628-768 + 80% then 763-933 +97%

 

Assuming the knight's 1H sword does 500 weapon damage, and the Champion's 2H axe does 1000 dmg, and the Legio's 2H staff does 750 dmg, we get:

 

Knight LMB: 621-759, then 849-1037 then 1191-1456

Champ LMB: 1744-2006, then 1325-1525 then 2896-3332

Legio LMB: 1076-1199 then 1228-1368 then 1490-1660

 

Knight's biggest combo (3 moves, 5 seconds):

4-E-4 902-1102 (x2) + 1280-1564 (x2) + 2808-3432 for an average of 7968

Champ's biggest combo (2 moves, 2 seconds):

3-E (vicious stomp / rend)  2850-3720 + 4796-5518 and 5(?) 3300 bleed ticks for an average of 24942

 

 

But Wait!  A knight gets a 10% damage penalty for being a knight (legio gets the same penalty)

 

 

Then we get to armor.  A knight really should be wearing plate.  It's kind of the defining quality of a knight.  So knight would then take a further 20% damage penalty, and a movement penalty.

 

 

And in return for hitting like a child with a wiffle bat (5577 average dmg on our very best 3 shot slow combo), a knight gets an additional 17.5K health and a block mechanic that provides a 90% dmg reduction while stamina lasts (30 secs if it's full).  Meaning the knight gets to act like a tent peg for an additional 35 seconds or so.

The shield in the sword/shield weapon the knight gets doesn't seem to do anything for mitigation except enable block.

 

Who dressed in a tin can and peed in your cereal when you were a child, ACE?

 

Am I missing something here, or does the increased mitigation of being a knight come nowhere near compensating for the ridiculous damage penalties you've applied?

 

 

 

 

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ACE:
Here's my problem with the Knight's damage output:   You've got multiple damage knobs and you've turned them all way down for the knight.  You have base weapon damage (the 1H+ shield), which does poor damage to start with (I've made some assumptions on base weapon damage since you don't provide those numbers.  My guesses seem pretty close based on the numbers that pop up in game, but they are just educated guesses).  You have the class multiplier (.9 for a knight), and you have the armor modifier (a further .8 for wearing plate to get the mitigation the knight is supposed to have).  Further, the numbers in the powers are crap.
 
 
Let's compare him to the other melee-only class for a sec.  Actually, let's thrown in the healer, too:
 
 
Knight damage vs Champ damage, both in full leather:
 
Knight LMB: 391-529 + 46% wpn dmg, then on next successful hit 534-722 + 63%, then on a third successful hit 751-1016 + 88%
Champ LMB: 744-1006 + 100% then 565-765 +76% then 1236-1672 + 166%
Legio LMB: 551-674 + 70%, then 628-768 + 80% then 763-933 +97%
 
Assuming the knight's 1H sword does 500 weapon damage, and the Champion's 2H axe does 1000 dmg, and the Legio's 2H staff does 750 dmg, we get:
 
Knight LMB: 621-759, then 849-1037 then 1191-1456
Champ LMB: 1744-2006, then 1325-1525 then 2896-3332
Legio LMB: 1076-1199 then 1228-1368 then 1490-1660
 
Knight's biggest combo (3 moves, 5 seconds):
4-E-4 902-1102 (x2) + 1280-1564 (x2) + 2808-3432 for an average of 7968
Champ's biggest combo (2 moves, 2 seconds):
3-E (vicious stomp / rend)  2850-3720 + 4796-5518 and 5(?) 3300 bleed ticks for an average of 24942
 
 
But Wait!  A knight gets a 10% damage penalty for being a knight (legio gets the same penalty)
 
 
Then we get to armor.  A knight really should be wearing plate.  It's kind of the defining quality of a knight.  So knight would then take a further 20% damage penalty, and a movement penalty.
 
 
And in return for hitting like a child with a wiffle bat (5577 average dmg on our very best 3 shot slow combo), a knight gets an additional 17.5K health and a block mechanic that provides a 90% dmg reduction while stamina lasts (30 secs if it's full).  Meaning the knight gets to act like a tent peg for an additional 35 seconds or so.
The shield in the sword/shield weapon the knight gets doesn't seem to do anything for mitigation except enable block.
 
Who dressed in a tin can and peed in your cereal when you were a child, ACE?
 
Am I missing something here, or does the increased mitigation of being a knight come nowhere near compensating for the ridiculous damage penalties you've applied?

 

You're not missing anything, you're just undervaluing the (ridiculousness) that is block.

 

Fix block and I'll agree with you. While it's a 30+ second 360 degree immunity to almost everything (and a hell of an offensive weapon against all magic damage in the game) I say they do plenty of damage.

Edited by coolwaters

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...

hey duren, or others, if you were not aware I have all SP weapons/armor, damage resistances and power tool tips on my resource site 

 

https://sites.google.com/site/crowfallresource/game-info/resistances

 

p.s. champ's 2nd smash tooltip is incorrect - it says it does less damage than 1st hit but that is wrong in game...i raised the bug ages ago to ace..

 

might also be worth comparing the TIME is takes for basic left click attacks though e.g. a knight might swing faster than a lego or champ...might be worth checking the timing on that on videos?

Edited by Tinnis

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I think the block should be directional (block only from the front 180 degree arc, or even front 120).  Just doing that would make it far less powerful when the knight gets surrounded, but still be effective enough to be archetype-defining.  A shield wall would still be possible.

 

Don't forget the druid is getting a 90% DR power for 15 secs, and the champion has stoneform and the confessor has invis and so on.. there's a lot of virtual invulnerability out there.  The difference with the knight is that the knight can turn theirs on and off at will, and it can last a cumulative 30 secs.

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hey duren, or others, if you were not aware I have all SP weapons/armor, damage resistances and power tool tips on my resource site 

 

https://sites.google.com/site/crowfallresource/game-info/resistances

 

p.s. champ's 2nd smash tooltip is incorrect - it says it does less damage than 1st hit but that is wrong in game...i raised the bug ages ago to ace..

 

I took the dmg numbers from your site for the powers, but I didn't realise you had example blue weapons on there.  Looks like my numbers are pessimistic all-around.  If I add 500 to the weapon dmg of all the weapons in my example they'd be closer.   But the conclusions drawn wouldn't change.  All the numbers would go up a bit, is all.

 

Thanks again for your work putting that site together.

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and i'd really suggest you confirm the time each attack chain takes for the melee archetype via twitch/youtube videos - if you do please let me know - good info to add to site

 

first instance i know that a ranger left click combo takes 4 seconds [6 hits]

 

p.s. i did the maths on a champion first left click in the past - the damage variation is HUGE:

 

on a NON CRIT the minimum damage can be 55% the damage of a maximum non crit hit...

 

p.s. tooltips last updated 

 

April 29 2016

 

nothing in patch notes since then about damage changes but you never know..

Edited by Tinnis

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There are a lot of different variables that go into the damage calculations. I don't think it's accurate to compare one ability to another and expect them to be only 10% different based on the default damage for each archetype.

 

Some abilities may do less damage while others do more. Take Shield Slam, for example. I'm not sure the exact amount of time it takes to fully charge, but there are no pre-requisite abilities and it can do as much or more damage than the entire Onslaught chain. Whirling Leap is generally pretty lame, but the other day I swear it hit someone for about 11.5k. I may have been wearing leather. I don't remember.

 

Also, if you factor in the damage that block does to a confessor, the numbers go up quite a bit. 

 

I also don't think it's accurate to say that knights are supposed to wear plate. That's not how this game is being designed. If you want the extra mitigation that plate affords, then you will have to except the penalties that come with it, though I'm sure the stats are anything but final at this point.

 

IMO, there are lot of things that need to be addressed before we start worrying about balance.

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I wear full leather as a knight and have done since they made the armor set changes.  I just feel it's silly that I have to do so.  The penalties for wearing plate far outweigh the mitigation benefits.

 

And while I don't think they should be doing full balance passes in pre-alpha, and I certainly don't think that all classes should be within 10% of each other, I do think that extreme deviations from that should be accompanied by an off-setting mitigating factor.   I don't see there being an off-setting benefit for the knight that justifies the poor damage the class does.

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There are certainly good reasons for balance passes during all phases of testing, despite the noise to the contrary. It shouldn't be a primary focus, but where ATs are so out of whack relative to one another that some aren't played enough to gather good data, that can be a problem.

Edited by coolwaters

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I believe the Knight should have the poorest damage output (or at least on level with Supports). The design goal for the Knight is this:

 

 

Our goal is for Knights to use their bodies as obstacles on the battlefield, creating a forward line which you have to get around to deal with the squishy heavy-hitters nuking from behind. Even then, the knight has peeling and lockdown capabilities forcing you to deal with him before swerving around. https://www.crowfall.com/en/news/first-look-knight-powers-and-ui/

 

The knight doesn't necessarily need more damage, they just needs to be more of an annoyance that NEEDS to be dealt with first before dealing with anybody else. 


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I think the block should be directional (block only from the front 180 degree arc, or even front 120).  Just doing that would make it far less powerful when the knight gets surrounded

 

The only real argument I see against a directional block is the fact that it *replaces* the dodge present on every other archetype.  If the mob tries to surround a knight, his current block does a great job of weathering the storm, while the rest of us dodge to safety.  With a directional block, the knight would be unable to do either.  I've not played much knight at all, though; you're much better equipped to address this than argument than I am.

 

 

The knight doesn't necessarily need more damage, they just needs to be more of an annoyance that NEEDS to be dealt with first before dealing with anybody else. 

 

I agree with this statement, but I don't think they live up to it currently.  I'm never too worried about knights, since their damage isn't much of a threat, and my damage output on a legio isn't enough to make a dent on him anyway.  If I had to choose between more threatening (damage buff) and more annoying (CC buff), I'd definitely choose annoying.

 

How about a short range, AoE snare passive on the knight? Once a knight gets in your face with one of his many powers, it would be much more difficult to get out.  Sounds annoying as hell, right?

Edited by Hyriol

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I agree with this statement, but I don't think they live up to it currently.  I'm never too worried about knights, since their damage isn't much of a threat, and my damage output on a legio isn't enough to make a dent on him anyway.  If I had to choose between more threatening (damage buff) and more annoying (CC buff), I'd definitely choose annoying.

 

How about a short range, AoE snare passive on the knight? Once a knight gets in your face with one of his many powers, it would be much more difficult to get out.  Sounds annoying as hell, right?

Exactly, as long as it makes one feel like that in order to kill the prime target, killing the knight has to come first. In fact, make all Tanks Public Enemy #1 and then we're talking.

 

My heads already filled with crazy scenarios where Group 1 has to split their members in order to kill a knight, so they can focus fire Group 2's DPS line, and to kill a Druid, to prevent them from healing the knight. Ohh the theorycrafting strategies...


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I don't think there's any way to give the Knight something that makes them so devastating that they become a primary target while also leaving them anything like this tanky.

 

Can you imagine how combat would look? There would be a ton of them. Ya can't kill em - too tanky. I guess they'd still be ignored unless they just did crazy damage. I'm not sure making them the first target is the trick.

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I don't think there's any way to give the Knight something that makes them so devastating that they become a primary target while also leaving them anything like this tanky.

 

Can you imagine how combat would look? There would be a ton of them. Ya can't kill em - too tanky. I guess they'd still be ignored unless they just did crazy damage. I'm not sure making them the first target is the trick.

I think Warhammer Online did this really well. All of the tanks had some way of being incredibly annoying to you. They didn't do much damage but they had certain utilities. Black Orks/Swordmasters had a massive AoE knockback that would knock people off walls and bridges, Ironbreakers/Blackguards had a system that made them deal more damage the longer the fight went on, and the Chosen/Knights had powerful auras which buffed their allies and debuffed enemies.

 

They were incredibly difficult to kill so the thought process was often not "kill the tank" but was more "keep the tank locked down and away from us."

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The only real argument I see against a directional block is the fact that it *replaces* the dodge present on every other archetype.  If the mob tries to surround a knight, his current block does a great job of weathering the storm, while the rest of us dodge to safety.  With a directional block, the knight would be unable to do either.  I've not played much knight at all, though; you're much better equipped to address this than argument than I am.

 

 

 

I agree with this statement, but I don't think they live up to it currently.  I'm never too worried about knights, since their damage isn't much of a threat, and my damage output on a legio isn't enough to make a dent on him anyway.  If I had to choose between more threatening (damage buff) and more annoying (CC buff), I'd definitely choose annoying.

 

How about a short range, AoE snare passive on the knight? Once a knight gets in your face with one of his many powers, it would be much more difficult to get out.  Sounds annoying as hell, right?

 

they already have a short range AoE snare...[lclick 3]

 

if you want to go in that direction...i'd say make a short range AoE 'weapon break' aura so everyone around you does less damage (even if not hitting the knight)


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I'm hoping the devs are capable of finding the balance on their own - does block need to be weaker?  Ok.  I'm fine with that.  Does the Knight need to be more of a hindrance on the field?  That's a viable path too, but there's no way you can legitimately say that a knight is going to keep even one person off a target for more than a couple of seconds with their current toolset.

 

The snare is on the 3rd LMB attack.

The knockdown is at the end of a 3 move combo that roots the knight.

The stun is at the end of a 2 move combo that roots the knight yet is our only hope of landing a CC in flowing combat.

Pursuit is a range closer on a cooldown.

The chain pull daze isn't noticeable.

 

The only archetype that might struggle to get away from the knight 1v1 is the ranger.  The only archetype that really needs to get away from the knight is the confessor, and they can do so pretty easily.

 

 

A knight is someone you kill when there's no one else around and you've got some time to get around the block.  Otherwise, you ignore them because they're not going to hurt anyone, and can't stop you from doing what you're doing.

 

All the bitching about the block being OP comes down to "You have a really good survival mechanic and I don't like that."  A blocking knight is a tentpeg.  You hammer on him and he just stands there and takes it.  He's not hitting back, he's not accomplishing anything but delaying his death.   The one caveat to that is that if he's standing in front of a stupid confessor, the confessor is killing himself.  Otherwise the confessor simply zooms away and attacks someone who doesn't have a magic reflect.

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All the bitching about the block being OP comes down to "You have a really good survival mechanic and I don't like that."  A blocking knight is a tentpeg.  You hammer on him and he just stands there and takes it.  He's not hitting back, he's not accomplishing anything but delaying his death.   The one caveat to that is that if he's standing in front of a stupid confessor, the confessor is killing himself.  Otherwise the confessor simply zooms away and attacks someone who doesn't have a magic reflect.

I agree with your post save this bit. But a 30+ second 360 degree power that negates all damage and reflects all magic damage back on the attacker is just not a fun or reactionary ability. The only reaction is: run the custard away or wait until he goes OOS. That's not good gameplay. BUT, I think most of what you posted would easily balance out a (hopefully significant) nerf to block.

 

I do agree with you and wish they gave Knights more of an irritant set of abilities OR something to actually take damage or rescue a friendly target in distress. Allowing chain pull on friendlies would be a start. Have it ignore physics on the target so you can pull a surrounded ally from harm's way. Also have it place a bubble on the target (maybe 15k bubble for 15 seconds?) or a short immunity. Maybe a power that replaces the Knight and the friendly? Like literally teleports each to the other's spot? Too much? Probably, but lots of cool things could be done that don't involve turtling up completely or being another DPS toon.

Edited by coolwaters

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A knight is someone you kill when there's no one else around and you've got some time to get around the block.  Otherwise, you ignore them because they're not going to hurt anyone, and can't stop you from doing what you're doing.

 

I agree fully with this statement, but I don't think more dps will fix it (though the knight could definitely use it for fun's sake).  I'd like to see the knight's block expanded to benefit group members more:

 

  • While blocking, the knight generates a short range defensive aoe that blocks X% damage to any friendlies close enough.  Similar to the current "Allies behind you benefit from increased damage reduction", but bigger and more effective.  A proper buff.
  • Stamina cost for being attacked increases with the number of players protected, but is only incurred when the knight himself is attacked.
  • Spell reflect is only active during the first few seconds of a block.  Something that powerful should require timing.
  • If a knight's stamina is depleted during a block, his block is broken, and he's unable to block again until his stamina reaches a certain threshold.

Run with a few knights, evenly spaced, and you have a proper shield wall.  With this kind of defensive power, you'd want to kill a knight for the same reason you target legios; not because he's a damage dealer, but because he allows the real damage dealers to be more effective.

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